internal ponderings while on subway and a meme...

[shadowkat]

[Sorry, I'm sucking at coming up with good subject titles at the moment.]

Been pondering something ever since I finished reading my flist last night.
Made it back to November 20th. Quite entertaining actually. Two trends on my list: Everyone who saw the Mountain, hated it. But seemed to like Marsters performance more or less. Everyone who saw The Incredibles, enjoyed it, but had serious problems with the themes. Something else stuck out at me as well, besides the two trends. Or maybe my brain just picked up on it, because of a conversation I'd had this Sunday at a friend's baby shower.

The conversation was about television. A woman was informing me that she usually didn't read or watch anything unless someone else recommended it to her. Someone she trusted. She'd missed the first six episodes of Joan of Arcadia, because she had decided, without trying it out first, that it was crap. Then a friend, she trusted, convinced her otherwise, and voila! she's a fan. Same thing happened with Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Farscape.

I didn't think much of this conversation until last night, after I'd read my flist.

Two weeks ago I saw the movie "The Incredibles". I was ambivalent about seeing it and hoped the message would not grate on my nerves. I'd read in a Magazine review (Entertainment Weekly), that the director/writer's message seemed to be that "being super is a right and a responsibility". This line grated on me in a way that the reviewer, who adored the film, probably did not anticipate. It felt a little Ayn Randian to me. And I was not sure I could handle the film. Have become increasingly egalitarian as I grow older. So I went to the film with cjlasky with much trepidation. And very low expectations. Was pleasantly surprised. While there were hints of Ayn Rand throughout, I also saw things that counter-acted it. Such as valuing life is a strength not a weakness. And
finding a way to use your strengths in "your own way" not by emulating/copying others or attempting to get their validation by becoming them. As a result, I liked the Incredibles much more than I expected. Then I came online last night, and read several posts condemning the ideaology of the movie - to the extent in which I felt an odd sense of shame for enjoying it. Shame that I had not picked up those same themes. Was I anti-egalitarian because I enjoyed the Incredibles and didn't pick up on the themes? Did it say something about me?
Whose opinion on this is credible anyway?

This brings me to a question I have for anyone who is reading this (assuming of course anyone is):
"How much of your opinion regarding a work of art, book, play, tv show, movie,
or piece of music is influenced by other people?"

Here's a short meme:
1. Name a favorite show that you began watching because someone else
recommended it. How important is that show to you.
2. Name a tv show or book or movie that you persuaded someone else to try.
3. Name an episode of TV show, a movie, or a book - that you changed your mind about after reading a post or review or hearing a friend talk about it.
How did they change your mind? Did you like it and now have mixed feelings?
Did you hate it, and now like it?
4. Do you read reviews before buying a book, DVD, or seeing a movie or tv show?
If so, how do the reviews influence your choice? Or do you tend to veer away from reviews and test it for yourself?
5. Are there any movies or tv shows or books you would never admit to watching or reading, because you fear how others will regard you? (This is a tough question to answer for obvious reasons.)

Here's my answers:
1. Farscape. I admit I may not have given this series a second chance if it weren't for pumpkinpuss, redredshoes and buffyannatator's constant persuading. I fell in love with it. And am glad I gave it a second chance. The first go-around it seemed cheesy, now, years later, it seems ground-breaking.

(Buffy the Vampire Slayer - I began watching on my own and rarely told anyone about, because they made fun of me. Angel? Same situation. Although I did give up on it in Season 3 after the Darla storyline. Several people online got me re-hooked (Aresuthsa, Dochawk and masqthephilospher). cjlasky is persuading me to give Veronica Mars another chance. It's growing on me, even though Kristen Bell is no where near the actress Gellar was in my opinion. )

2. I persuaded my Mother to watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer, did it with the musical episode and the Buffy Marathon on F/X one Thanksgiving. And got a couple of people to try The Three Stigmata of Palmer K. Eldritch (they may resent me for that, not sure.)As well as a few for Farscape.

3. Lies My Parents Told Me. I actually enjoyed the episode when I first saw it. But when I went online, after reading a few posts, I felt ashamed for liking the bits I did. I honestly did not see what annoyed and angered others the first go around and felt ashamed for missing it. Weird response, I know. When I watched it a second and third time - I did see these things and decided I disliked the episode. How did they persuade me? Well through examples, several emotional ones that hit certain triggers in me. We all have our button issues and they managed to hit mine. So much so, that I felt defensive for liking the episode or seeing it differently. Now, I'm curious to know what I would have thought about the episode if I'd never gone online? Or what I'll think about it now, that I've had time to process all of this. And which opinion is the credible one? My initial impression or the latter one? Does it even matter?

Brings up another question - I wonder how many people who adored S7 were annoyed with those of us who didn't? Same thing with S6? If you are reading this, I'm curious, how much or how little did the negative reviews of S6 and S7 influence your own opinion and enjoyment? How did you deal with these reviews?


4. Used to read movie and book reviews, don't so much any more. It got to the point that the reviewer was telling me too much about the movie, tv show, or book - spoiling the experience of discovering these points on my own. We get so overwhelmed with information - and opinion - what to buy, what to watch, that sometimes I need a break from it. So I read them intermittently now. Most movies and tv shows - I decide to watch without knowing much more than what I've seen in commercials. That said, bad reviews of The Chronicles of Riddick and In The Cut stopped me from seeing either movie in the theater. I regret not seeing In The Cut. While Lost in Translation and Sky Captain and The World of Tomorrow are examples of movies I expected to enjoy based on reviews I'd read and despised. For some reason I reacted negatively to both of them - was deadly bored. I blame it on high expectations.

5. Any movies, books, or tv shows I'd never admit to watching?? Yes, several. And no I won't tell you what they are. (I'm insecure, I admit it. )

Comments

[oyceter]

I don't think you're necessarily missing anything or being anti-egalitarian for not seeing the same things I did in The Incredibles. I think much of it is how we filter works -- I know that I tend to read things from a gender perspective and not very much from a political one. And I know the feeling about feeling guilty for liking things. londonkds's posts on Fables are very intelligent as to the political landscape of the books, but it's something I never notice when I read them, so I feel a bit ashamed of myself for not seeing it either.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think much of it is how we filter works -- I know that I tend to read things from a gender perspective and not very much from a political one.

This is a great point. I think that's true. It's how we watch something.

I know at the beginning of the Fall, I was watching everything through a gender perspective. Hyper-aware of how women were or weren't utilized in tv shows, movies, books. It made it impossible for me to enjoy just about anything on tv, outside of maybe Joan of Arcadia for a while. Then I somehow managed to flip off the filter.
As a result I can now watch and actually enjoy Veronica Mars and Lost without cringing.

Never been very good at picking up political stuff either, I tend to watch things more through an emotional filter. Gut-level/Intuitive. Visual metaphors often hit me more than dialogue does. I know I had troubles with S7 BTVS, because the character Robin Wood reminded me of someone who I despised at that particular time. He was an emotional trigger for me at that time. Might not be one now. I can't help but wonder if others have similar experiences but with different characters or themes?

[oyceter]

The gender filter is particularly frustrating because there are so few shows out there that deal with it well! Sometimes I like a show so much that I overlook gender issues (Angel), other times, I just can't take it (Alias). But I've been looking through it so long subconsciously that it's hard to let go of... one of my main criteria when I was a kid was kickass heroines.

But yes, I think one of the good parts of LJ and AtPO is that you can see the show from other people's perspectives and hopefully have them enrich your own viewing experience and contribute in part.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't feel ashamed of yourself. I think that one naturally tends to pick up on political ideas which irritate more than ones one agrees with, especially when the ideas are particularly dominant in the US at the moment.

[oyceter]

Yeah, I think a very large part of it is that while I am a giant bleeding-heart liberal, I tend not to think about politics that much in daily life. But I really enjoy your posts because they bring in a perspective that I often overlook.

[anomster.livejournal.com]

"I know that I tend to read things from a gender perspective and not very much from a political one."

And a gender perspective is not political...how?

[oyceter]

Different focus? I think some people specifically focus on the liberal/conservative divide, of which gender issues are a part of, but gender by no means encompass the whole thing. Or there can be a work that reads fine from the gender perspective but still pokes fun at bleeding-heart liberals or somesuch.

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I am too sick at the moment to give exhaustive answers to all your questions, but I only started watching BtVS because so many people I knew (in the US) were addicted to the show.

Since I started watching so late, even though I saw all the episodes in order from the beginning, I wasn't affected by online fandom until I caught up, which was in early S7. And I have to say that since I am in the minority who loved it, I have grown really defensive and reluctant to talk about it. I recognize that it has flaws, but in my view all the seasons are equally flawed, and I have often felt that I was essentially being called stupid because I failed to recognize that _______ (insert list of unforgivable sins) marked S7 as utter crap.

As you can probably tell, the animosity surrounding S7 (and S6, to a somewhat lesser degree) didn't exactly interfere with my enjoyment of the show, but it made me hesitant to express my opinion. It's also made me feel a lot more protective of the later seasons and given them even more emotional weight for me, to the point where I still haven't managed to open and rewatch my S7 DVDs that came about a week ago.

I liked discussing AtS because I enjoyed it a lot, but it didn't come with the same emotional attachment that BtVS had. That made it a lot easier to remain detached in discussions, and has allowed me to continue to enjoy even episodes that I liked but were trashed online.

So attachment definitely has its pros and cons.

On the whole, though, I've found that online participation has really enhanced my enjoyment of the shows by uncovering layers I hadn't noticed, bringing fresh perspectives and interpretations, and generally bringing them even more to life. Really, it's just the issue of S7 that has been touchy for me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the reply. So sorry that you are ill.
(Is it that wicked flu bug that seems to be going around? Half my office has come down with it.) Hope you feel better soon.

And I have to say that since I am in the minority who loved it, I have grown really defensive and reluctant to talk about it. I recognize that it has flaws, but in my view all the seasons are equally flawed, and I have often felt that I was essentially being called stupid because I failed to recognize that _______ (insert list of unforgivable sins) marked S7 as utter crap.

This was what I was pondering today on the way home.
It's not a new ponder. I'd pondered it most of the weekend as well. In one argument with a friend, on Friday, I attempted to point out that our tastes are subjective ones. (Our argument was about whether football was better than daytime soap operas...don't ask. It ended in a stalemate.) This argument over taste had a reprise on Sunday, with another friend. She hated Episode II of Star Wars, but enjoyed Episode I. I, on the other hand, rather enjoyed Episode II and found the internal politics interesting, but was wary of defending it in the face of so much hatred. She also was lukewarm regarding S5 of BTVS and loved S4 of BTVS. I tend to be the opposite. The argument made me wonder if such arguements are even winnable? My Sunday Friend made it clear that she tends to be more interested in sci-fi shows, enjoys cool special effects, and atmosphere and isn't interested in the politics. She loved the sci-fi military storyline of S4, but despised the Glorifucus/Ben storyline of S5. I'm the complete opposite. Whose right? Whose wrong? I'm not sure either is. Or if it matters. And luckily for us, we got both.

Add to this the fact that we could change our minds at any given time. For me - enjoyment of a piece of art often depends on my mood, my current situation, what is happening to me, and my needs emotional and otherwise at that given point in time. Would I love BTVS ten years from now? Would I have enjoyed it this much when I was 22? I don't know. Heck, I may enjoy S7 more in three years than I did while watching it.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I think my problem is that I'd been defending certain aspects of S7 while it was actually on, based on what turned out to be a misreading of elements of the show, or possibly picking up things in the early eps which ME changed their minds about. So there's a certain amount of thoroughly dishonourable annoyance at being proved wrong for me ;-)

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I think you're right that we often let people's opinions influence our own -- perhaps more than we should. I know that if I hadn't read others' criticisms of S7, it's possible my own, vague dissatisfaction with Joss and his anti-patriarchy might have faded by now. But because other people confirmed and clarified my own misgivings, I'm more cognizant of S7's flaws.

Brings up another question - I wonder how many people who adored S7 were annoyed with those of us who didn't? Same thing with S6? If you are reading this, I'm curious, how much or how little did the negative reviews of S6 and S7 influence your own opinion and enjoyment? How did you deal with these reviews?

I can see people being annoyed with those of us who didn't like S7, especially if we continually criticised and seemed negative about it. I would totally understand and even sympathise -- it must be pretty frustrating when fandom is divided as much as it was in S7 (and S6). People "harshing your mellow" ;)

As much as I adored many individual eps and enjoyed the general themes, I did have misgivings about S7 and even S6. Finding that other fans had similar reactions was a great relief! Truthfully? I think everybody in fandom has moments of believing their opinion is the one that's trod upon, marginalised, vilified. I remember a discussion about it not long ago (forget whose LJ) -- that we all feel like minorities in fandom, even when our opinions/pairings/what-have-you is in reality one of the most popular. (Think the B/S vs B/A wars, and how each side believed they were the ones being bashed. What about poor Buffy/Oz, which barely has a handful of 'shippers? Hee!)

My meme is over here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/scrollgirl/162050.html). Very interesting questions!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I think you're right that we often let people's opinions influence our own -- perhaps more than we should. I know that if I hadn't read others' criticisms of S7, it's possible my own, vague dissatisfaction with Joss and his anti-patriarchy might have faded by now. But because other people confirmed and clarified my own misgivings, I'm more cognizant of S7's flaws.

I had somewhat the same response. Vague misgivings and frustrations, that may have disappeared sooner if it weren't for the chance to constantly rant about them with other equally annoyed fans. What I keep pondering is the extent to which my misgivings were my own and the extent to which they were influenced by others? I don't think being influenced by others is necessarily a bad thing, by the way. In some cases it gives us a different perspective, opens things up, makes us aware of something we might or might not be doing that is harming someone. But I think being aware of the fact you are being influenced or the extent to which you are - is *very* important.

(Oh - you did get me to try out Justice League Unlimited - you and fresne. Loved the ones I saw. Dang good cartoon. Unfortunately I keep missing episodes. It's hard to find here in the NYC. And is shown out of order. I keep getting episodes I've already seen.)

[ann1962]

My initial watching of BTVS was all by my lonesome. Therefore, my responses were all mine. Likes, dislikes. I watched them out of order, and some seasons in rerun with other seasons concurrently. After we moved here, and could afford a computer, I realized there was a whole world out there talking about this stuff. Wow. Who knew? Then I found the board and realized there were intelligent people out there talking about this stuff. Wow squared. That only added to my understanding and enjoyment of the series.

I have had a weird response to watching BTVS. It is only upon thinking about it after, that I realized how many levels this stuff was on. While watching, not so much, as I was in the moment of the show. Because it allows so many interpretations, complexity, I have never had a problem with others reactions to the show. Some I agree with, others not so much. I never got annoyed at others reactions although I wondered what show they were watching sometimes lol.

S7 was another funny situation. It was on first run here at midnight on UPN on Fox. Fuzzy and blurry feed. I have kids, so I can rarely stay up that late. So S7 was a hit and miss proposition that I enjoyed. But I did keep thinking the pace was a little slower than previous season. I see why people lost interest; many continuing skinnying characters to deal with and the coming end.

I thought that LMPTM was incredible in its depth. It added controversial back-story that aided (IMO) extreme character development that needed to be added before the end of the series. The intercutting of the scenes was brilliant I think.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I started watching Buffy after a couple of friends raved about it. Watched it from start to end of season 5 over the summer after season 5 ended, and then continued to become more obsessed with it over the next 2 seasons. I am also one of those who like season 7, and I never really understood all the kerfuffle over LMPTM. I thought it was a brilliant episode. I must admit that once I started lurking on ATPO, I would watch an episode, enjoy it, and then wonder if I was seeing the show the way others did. I felt quite defensive about liking seasons 6 and 7 when all around me people were complaining about it. But then I decided that I like what I like, and if others don't agree, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. So I stand tall and say I liked all the seasons of Buffy and also of Angel.
I love Farscape, too. Found that show on my own.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I must admit that once I started lurking on ATPO, I would watch an episode, enjoy it, and then wonder if I was seeing the show the way others did.

Here's the thing, I don't think you were. None of us were watching the same show. Oh it's the same show technically speaking, but through our heads, eyes, ears, mind, heart? Completely different. On ATPO there's two threads - one on souls and one on S7 - where you get two completely different perspectives. One loved the Season, loved where the canon changed and vampires became less monsterous.
The other was well the opposite. They weren't watching the same show - not really. We can't. Any more than I think the creator is making the same show as his actors - they are collaborating on it, but each brings a different lense. If you interview each person who worked on Buffy, separately, apart from each other, without allowing them access to see each other's commentary, I guarantee they will say contradictory things about the show, it's purpose, it's meaning, and what they thought it was about. Just as I'm convinced if you ask you family after you watch a TV show at night what they saw, each will come up with something different. Their mind will focus on something different in the scene. One person will focus on scenery, one maybe on plot, one on the songs in the background and a fourth maybe on the actors. So we don't see the same show. Not really. We can't.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I thought that LMPTM was incredible in its depth. It added controversial back-story that aided (IMO) extreme character development that needed to be added before the end of the series. The intercutting of the scenes was brilliant I think.

Oh I'd agree. Except...there were emotional triggers in that show.
And I guess it depends on how you watch or experience something - from an emotional view or a more objective/intellectual one. And emotional triggers are well just that. My difficulty with Lies was largely due to two things: 1) Robin Wood - I reacted negatively to the character emotionally. He pushed my buttons. 2)the Oedipus Complex got on my nerves - not sure why, maybe because I'd seen too much of it in books, movies, and tv shows I'd seen and felt, oh no, not *this* again? (Overexposure to a certain theme. Also probably did not help that I'd overdosed on the Freudian/Jungian "Monster" Female/Anima theme in Undergrad. And thought the whole thing a tad obvious as a result. As oyceter states above, we do tend to look at things through our own filter. I can't help but wonder what my reaction would have been if a) I hadn't predicted they'd do this storyline way before they did it, b) hadn't overdosed on those themes in my 20s, and c) didn't have a knee-jerk emotional reaction to the Robin Wood character? I may never know. But it definitely had an effect on my second viewing and aided in the ability of others posts to persuade me to dislike the episode.)

When I started watching BTVS in 1997, I watched much as you described above - intermittently. I got hooked in S2, briefly scanned online websites for spoilers, but did not know or frequent posting boards. I was a huge B/A fan in 1997-1999. It wasn't until 2002 that I discovered posting boards. I came online in fall of 2001, hunting essays, spoilers, and fanfic - discovered that - but no way to interact with it. Then voila, MArch 2002 - I made my first post to
the Buffy Cross and Stake Spoiler Board. A poster there asked if he could transport one of my essays to another board, the ATPO board. I gave permission in exchange for a link to the board. A couple of months latter I was making posts directly to it. What happened to cause this gradual expansion? I think it had more to do with what was going on in my personal/professional life than BTVS. Something about BTVS spoke to what I was feeling at that specific time in my life.
And online I found a bunch of people who seemed, for whatever reason, to share those feelings and desires. When I attempted to describe the posting board experience to an offline friend, she exclaimed:"Oh, it's like group therapy." And in a way it was and still is. But not quite how she would consider it.