Can we continue to love the works of an artist - if the artist is an asshole?

[shadowkat]

Decided to separate this stuff from my daily lockdown update.

Well, we now have confirmation on why Whedon left social media completely in November, and HBO's The Nevers in October - with only six episodes completed (there's a new show-runner hired - who is a British female feminist writer and activist). (Kind of already knew why - but it was admittedly at that point mainly speculation.) I was speculating and giving Whedon the benefit of the doubt on why he left - because it could have been for personal reasons like he said. But I also thought it was a touch suspicious that he left Twitter completely in November 2020. (The man had been tweeting constantly during the summer). And he was a no-show at San Diego Comic Con, after having a scheduled one-on-one - to advertise the Nevers. He did kind of make a quick appearance on Fillion's chat but that was it. The cancellation of his Zoom chat came soon after the Fisher accusations arose.

What happened? Hmmm...

* Buffy the Vampire Star Charisma Carpenter speaks out about Joss Whedon.

* To date... Sarah Michelle Gellar, Amber Bensen and Michelle Trachenberg have verified Charisma's statements

Gellar and Trachenberg did it on Instagram - neither are on Twitter. Amber Bensen and Charisma posted it on Twitter.

Gellar and Trachenberg's Instagram posts:

"While I am proud to have my name associated with Buffy Summers, I don’t want to be forever associated with the name Joss Whedon. I am more focused on raising my family and surviving a pandemic currently, so I will not be making any further statements at this time. but I stand with all survivors of abuse and am proud of them for speaking out." [Note Gellar had stopped talking to Whedon after Buffy ended, and did not do a guest appearance on Angel S5. She also has distanced herself from him over the years.]

Michelle Trachtenberg, who played Buffy's younger sister, Dawn Summers, from 2000-03, responded to Gellar's post with her own accusation against Whedon, writing, "Thank you sarahmgellar for saying this. I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman....To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior....very. Not. Appropriate." [ ETA: MT updated her Instagram response to state as follows: "So now. People know. What Joss. Did. The last. Comment I will make on this was a rule. Saying. He's not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again." ]


Charisma's on Twitter - which sheds more light on the pregnancy bit than we knew. I'd been told a story about it long before - this, by Dochawk on the ATPOBTVS Board. Dochawk's best friend was an Assistant Producer on Angel to David Greenwalt - so he basically knew everything that was going to happen on Buffy and Angel. Anyhow, Doc told me in December of 2002 that Cordelia was going to be the Big Bad, but then someone else would come in, and be the true big bad and take over. He gave details. Every single one happened on the show - so I VERY spoiled for Angel S4. Annoyingly so. He also told me that Whedon had intended on Cordy becoming the Big Bad and Connor killing her at the end of the season. Apparently, Fox and WB had issues with both Charisma and Greenwalt's behavior on set, and wanted Joss to get rid of them or play the bad guy. Joss was busy with Firefly and Buffy, at the time, and really didn't care that much about Angel in S3. This was in S3 that they made the request. But shortly after that - Greenwalt left to take another job, and Whedon wrote a great story (according to Tim Minear) where Cordy would be the big bad - when whoops she got pregnant over the summer. Minear stated that it screwed up Joss's entire story. And he was pissed. They had to rewrite all of it. Because you can't really have the Big Bad Pregnant Lady. (She was going to be fired either way. But ironically - getting Pregnant may have saved her character, even if it put the actress through a living hell - because Whedon punished her for it.)

Go HERE for Carpenter's lengthy statement on Twitter.

And Amber Benson (Tara) who supports it and retweeted Charisma's with this : Buffy was a toxic environment and it starts at the top. allcharisma
is speaking truth and I support her 100%. There was a lot of damage done during that time and many of us are still processing it twenty plus years later. #IStandWithRayFisher #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter - Amber Benson
amber_benson

[Which explains why Benson refused to return to Buffy and hasn't worked with Whedon again. Nor have the others that came forward.]

And.. Wonder Woman Star Gail Gadot states she did not have the best experience with Whedon.

This is all on top of...Ray Fishers accusations about Whedon's behavior on the set of The Justice League reshoot. (Note HBO MAX is due to release the Zack Snyder cut on Justice League sometime this month.)

Ray Fisher accuses Joss Whedon of inappropriate behavior on the set of Justice League which lead to an investigation at Warner [Note Fisher's accusations came out in July, right after this, Whedon dropped out of San Diego Comic Con - he was scheduled for Q&A with Whedon. Also Whedon was supposed to be the new show-runner for DC, but they changed their mind after Justice League.]

Kai Cole comes forward with Whedon is a Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals

And... The Cut - Joss Whedon's Controveries and Alleged Bad Behavior - A Guide AND Screen Rant - Whedon's abuse misconduct allegations and accusations explained.

And...sigh, I know from various Q&A'swith both the Buffy and Angel casts, along with remarks made by Whedon himself, that Whedon allowed and thought it was hilarious that David Boreanze wandered around the set flashing female cast and crew members with his penis. He didn't wear pants. He also really only did it with the women. (Marsters was shocked when Dusku and Benz were discussing it with laughter during a Q&A.)

Once again...that ever-troubling quandry, can we look past the personal actions of the writer/creator and still enjoy his/her/their art? I believe so, particularly in television - since it's collaborative and more than one voice was involved. It can be more difficult in other art forms of course. Also people are more than one thing - so an abusive person can create beautiful art - see Orson Scott Card, George RR Martin, Denis Quaid, Bruce Willis, TS Eliot , F Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Virgina Woolf, JK Rowling, Ronald Dahl, Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Owen Tarrantino, Mel Gibson, etc.. Still it is troubling. Can we love the art, without supporting actions we despise?

I can't say any of this surprises me, as you know from reading this journal, I've known about most of this for quite some time now and struggled over the years - because it brings up a troubling dilemma.

Can you continue to love the works of an artist - who is proven to be abusive?

I keep reminding myself that people are more than one thing. And Whedon may well have been attempting to examine his own abusive impulses through his work. I certainly saw that long before anything came to light. Also it occurs to me that Whedon didn't create his shows alone, there were many people involved. But it is troubling. All you have to do is watch Q&A's with Marsters, Carpenter, Benz, Dusku, Brendan, Benson, Emma, et all from around 2003 onwards. Even before that. It's there in the subtext.

It's not like we didn't see it - we did, as far back as 2002, we saw it. We discussed it. And we struggled with it.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently with my manager - this was yesterday, actually. We were talking about an attorney who we both liked, and who liked us. My manager is Persian, and a person of color. She hails from the Middle East. And has a difficult to pronounce name. She is also the wife of a cop, and has a black son and daughter. Every workplace I've been in since moving to NYC has been diverse racially. That's one of the reasons I adore NYC.

Me: I liked Mr. C (a lawyer) until Lando told me that he said " I won't work with that (N word)."
Manager: Yes, but there may be more to this story? I mean Mr. C was from a certain era and people used that word back then. It wasn't a big deal. I know my parents did, and I know others have. And even now the language is constantly changing - I found out today that the word tomboy is all wrong and there's another word for it that I can't even remember that my daughter told me - that shocked me.
Me: True. And we both know that Lando was hardly politically correct. (He wasn't.)
Manager: Exactly. He was far from it.
Me: And he wasn't exactly easy to work with - it could have been about something other than race.
Manager: Yes, I don't think Mr. C was necessarily racist.
ME: I keep telling myself that people are more than one thing. It's not so clear cut. And you can be an asshole regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc.

New York and social media have certainly proved that to me. Asshole, sometimes I think, is a human default setting.

I'm not excusing his behavior, far from it. But, I think we need to demonize the behavior not the man. And I saw that in his works - which also were troubling and more than one thing, filled with shades of grey - in which he appeared to be struggling to deal with his own demons and demonic urges. As I've said before and will say again, there's a lot of Angelus and Spike in Joss Whedon - and I think through those two characters he often examined his own demons.

As to the abusive behavior - a lot of this is due to the industry. The Entertainment industry across the board is not a safe or kind industry to work in. The Railroad, believe it or not, is kinder. Actually it's the kindest one that I've worked in - possibly because it is public and government? Don't know. Publishing was by far the worst - do not work in publishing. I was interviewed by a woman writing a book on serial bullying, and she informed me that of all the people she'd interviewed in her book that had been harassed and bullied in the work place - about 85% were in the publishing industry. And I remember a recruiter telling me once that I did not want to work for NBC - because their interview process was putting you in the center of the room, shining a spotlight on you, and yelling at you.
When I worked at the video game developer - my boss informed me that CBS, NBC, Fox, and ABC were all just as bad. Horrible environments to work in.
Do not work in television.

And I just watched a roundtable with Christopher Plummer, Charlize Therone, Viola Davis, George Clooney and Tilda Swinton - and they also adressed the problem - of how producers and directors often look at women as little more than sex objects. And being an older, not necessarily thin, black woman in this industry was painful.

Look at every series you love - and look deep, can you honestly say there's no misogyny, racism, or issues there? Or with the creators? Shondra Rhimes has a horrible reputation, and she's a woman. And Bryan Singer. And my brother told me stories about people out in LA such as Tim Burton, Oliver Stone, Stephen Spielberg not to mention what it was like working on Love Crimes, that made me rethink a career as a screenwriter or in film. After interviewing a few people and working with a media rep for the music industry, I ran as far away as I could get from that industry. It's an industry that attracts narcissistic assholes and allows and promotes bad behavior.

It shouldn't be shocking that the Me#Too Movement and Times Up came out of that industry. Hitchcock was a creep who sexually harassed and bullied his female actors. Kubrick was impossible to work with. Malick abused his actors. Oliver Stone peed on his sets. Burton overworked his staff.

When bad behavior is promoted or allowed folks will do it. David Boreanze wandered about pantless on sets. Pulled practical jokes. Flashed his penis. And got into trouble for sexual harrassment on the set of Bones - he's still doing well. The star of Bull sexually harassed Eliza Dusku and that show is still on the air. Is it his fault or the environment that allows it or both?

I don't know the answers to any of the questions I've posed. If I did, I wouldn't feel the need to write about it in my journal. It bothers me. I remember Jodi Foster and Whoopie Goldberg defending Mel Gibson - who came across an an anti-semitic racist misogynist. But do we know? We don't.

That's the problem with the information age - we have all this information at our fingertips, but we don't really know what to do with it, what is true, or how to react. And when we do believe the truth - then what?

Do we stop reading or loving Harry Potter because JK Rowlings is an transphobe and sexist? Or do we stop watching and adoring Buffy, Firefly, Angel or Dollhouse or even The Avengers and Avengers Age of Ultron because Whedon has exhibited abusive and asshole behavior on set and caused a toxic work environment?

I don't think so. I hope not. I think we need to see the whole person, not just the actions. It's kind of like how we might look at a favorite fictional character? Spike was horrific in some ways, but not in others, should I feel wrong for liking the character - as long as I condemned the actions I despised? It's a question the writers ask.

Do we hate our children because of what they do? Do we hate each other because of what we do? Or just the actions?

I've been asking myself this question a lot lately. Every time I see a maskless wonder - and I saw many today. Or the lawyer yells at me over Teams. Or I see Trump or his cronies or watch in tears as my nation's capital is raided. Or when George Floyd is killed. So much of 2020, the last few years really, I've felt myself consumed with rage. Kill them. I'd think.
Two shots to the head, two to the heart - dead. No such thing as a good Trump Supporter. No such thing as a Good Republican. And then, I'd take a huge step back and remind myself of the kindness I'd received from those who I personally know that are both. And I'd remind myself of my New Year's resolution two years running now - be kind no matter what. The kind part isn't the hard part - what's hard, insanely so, you've no idea or maybe you do? The hard part is "no matter what".

Perhaps it is just me - but people have been showing an increasing amount of asshole behavior of late. I want to smack them.

Do we condemn the people or the asshole behavior? And does the asshole behavior cancel out the good, or is it the opposite?

And finally back to my initial question - do we condemn the art and the works of a creator, whose other behavior and/or beliefs we find troubling or offensive? (In Whedon, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Woody Allen's case - it's the behavior not the ideology, in Orson Scott Card, JK Rowling, and TS Eliot it was the ideology and beliefs.) Or, as a friend once told me, do we still enjoy them because they give us insight to another point of view or show us something else - helping us to see that people are more than one thing, and what we can see in a work of art is often not what we see in the artist?

It's probably worth stating - and I almost forgot - there are works that are troubling in of themselves, while the creator isn't necessarily. American Psycho, Atlas Shrugged, Gone with the Wind, Me Before You, Fifty Shades of Grey, all come to mind. There others as well. Should they be expunged? I don't think so. Or maybe it just depends? It is important, I think, to look at them all with a critical eye.

Comments

[mefisto]

So far -- and I emphasize that -- MT hasn't said that the reason was sexual. In the context of everything else, it could have been "just" abuse of a different sort.

I remember people claiming that JM was not allowed to be alone with MT. I'm pretty sure that was false, but it's shocking that it was apparently Joss.

[shadowkat]

No, she just said that there was a rule that he not be allowed alone with her.

JM got into trouble for writing a song that may have been about MT. Also, JM started dating his wife when she was in high school - this was in Germany. She was about 17 or 18 at the time. She took him to her Prom. He married her when she turned twenty-two. And he wrote songs about it.

But I don't think he came on to MT (who had a huge crush on him) - mainly because he was too busy at the time and had much like Denisof - a policy of no longer dating cast members. (He'd dated the actress who played Harmony.)
Dusku did come on to him - but he blew her off. That was the rumor on JM, how much of all of that is actually true? I don't know. The women haven't said a word, just fans.

[mefisto]

And now JM's wife is divorcing him. I doubt it's related, but who knows?

[shadowkat]

Wait - What? How do you know this? Where was this posted? Details!

ETA - I can't say I'm all that surprised. They are stuck together in lock down during a pandemic. And usually they weren't together that much. And he's much much older than her - by about 20-30 years. He's almost 60 and she's 30. And he spends most of his time doing Zoom, audio books, and playing video games. I saw it coming - a mile a way. But I'm also surprised.

[mefisto]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/entertainment/other/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-star-james-marsters-and-wife-patricia-rahman-split-after-10-years-of-marriage/ar-BB1dn35a?%3Bocid=spartandhp

10 years is a long marriage in that industry.

[shadowkat]

I found multiple articles - one had JM filing divorce papers. Yep, 10 years is a long marriage in that industry. And my guess is the pandemic killed his marriage. The pandemic has killed a lot of relationships to date.

He's been really quiet on social media of late - posts mainly about his son's work and his cons. And he's also gotten really careful with it. He sees it as toxic and manages it well. Gellar is equally careful. Both have been burned.

(Television gossip amuses me - it's this weird schadenfreud bit, I think?)

[mefisto]

I have to say that it's nothing short of miraculous that *I* was the one to tell *you* gossip about JM. :)

[shadowkat]

LMAO!

Yes, that fact is not at all lost on me. He didn't post it on Twitter. But it does explain why he's barely on it now, and has been quiet of late - just talking about his kid, and not at all about his wife.

[shadowkat]

Marsters finally tweeted his support:

James Marsters@JamesMarstersOf -

"While I will always be honored to have played the character of Spike, the Buffy set was not without challenges. I do not support abuse of any kind, and am heartbroken to learn of the experiences of some of the cast. I send my love and support to all involved."

[mefisto]

He's like ASH: I didn't know about this but it's terrible.

Still no writer, no director, no AtS cast except for a vague message of support from JAR.

[shadowkat]

Yep, very vague. Similar to Gellar's as well, which was vague. J. August and Clem also provided vague support. But, if you look over interviews, Q&A, etc - they've all talked about it. I think Marsters comment was carefully prepared as was Gellar's - neither wanted to talk about it, and both have moved on. Also neither wanted to take anything away from Charisma. Both posted similar blanket statements - making me wonder if they discussed it. ASH was blindsided on a talk show.

Correct, no one really from ATS. Okay not completely true. Mere Smith - who was a break down writer, and wrote episodes, retweeted Charismas, and supported it.

I'll be surprised if any of the others do. Franz Katz and Alan Tudyk both said that they didn't experience anything - but they are also both white men and didn't threaten Whedon.

Marsters did state that he had experienced things. As has Gellar in the past. So they've both talked about it interviews. And he even supported her reasons for wanting to leave Buffy, noting that it was a difficult set to work on. But I don't think everyone knew about Michelle or Charisma. Charisma didn't tell anyone the full story.

They did know it was a toxic environment - and that has a lot to do with Fox and Warner Brothers (WB), both were toxic places to work in. This all came out of the Warner Brothers investigation into Ray Fisher's claims about Joss Whedon's reshoot of Justice League. Ray Fisher got fired from the Flash for his allegations against Whedon, and filed a lawsuit against Warner Brothers - which resulted in an internal legal investigation. Fisher's lawyers contacted Charisma and asked her to testify on what happened on Angel, they also contacted other shows. Charisma came forward - and when she did, and her story was verified, then Gail Gadot who also verified her bad experience, and Jason Momoa did...Whedon left the Nevers, and left social media. All of that happened behind the scenes. After Whedon left the Nevers - people blamed Fisher, and no one believed him (I was skeptical), and that's why Charisma came forward - and it's why Amber and Sarah and Michelle all supported her. Because no one was believing Fisher, and alone, no one would believe Charisma.

God, all of this sounds so familiar to me. It's what happened to me in 2001-2002, and it's why I got so obsessed with the Buffy story. I had a boss who isolated me, and gaslit me, and no one would support me - except for two people who had no power, and they left the company at the same time I did.
I had friendship almost fall apart because of it. Why didn't my friends support me - because they were scared and didn't want to lose their job and career. But to this day, I still have serious trust issues. And I was in my thirties, with a law degree. And it wasn't sexual. I also didn't say anything or report it - I couldn't. And my workplace was so toxic and hostile - it broke every HR rule imaginable, that my only recourse was to leave and not look back. And I wasn't alone in that. My friend who couldn't support me at the time, also had a nervous breakdown because of the abuse. And it took her years to pull herself back together again. The fact that this sort of thing is so prevalent in our society...is troubling. I'm hoping that things will change.

[mefisto]

Ok, MN has now issued a statement that "I would like to validate what the women of Buffy are saying and support them in telling their story....I understand where Charisma, Amber, Michelle and all the women who have spoken out are coming from."

That sounds pretty bad for Joss.

[mefisto]

And now a Firefly writer says Joss was "casually cruel". https://i.redd.it/4d4zvpluf5h61.jpg

[shadowkat]

It's interesting what is coming to the surface. It also explains why Whedon jumped off social media in November. I think he knew it was about to hit the fan - because of that Warner Brothers/HBO investigation. Keep in mind AT&T bought Time Warner and HBO. They are under new management, and AT&T is cleaning house.

I expect to see more before this is done.

People want details and not vague support. But honestly, I'm not sure some of them can do much more than they have already.