Can we continue to love the works of an artist - if the artist is an asshole?

[shadowkat]

Decided to separate this stuff from my daily lockdown update.

Well, we now have confirmation on why Whedon left social media completely in November, and HBO's The Nevers in October - with only six episodes completed (there's a new show-runner hired - who is a British female feminist writer and activist). (Kind of already knew why - but it was admittedly at that point mainly speculation.) I was speculating and giving Whedon the benefit of the doubt on why he left - because it could have been for personal reasons like he said. But I also thought it was a touch suspicious that he left Twitter completely in November 2020. (The man had been tweeting constantly during the summer). And he was a no-show at San Diego Comic Con, after having a scheduled one-on-one - to advertise the Nevers. He did kind of make a quick appearance on Fillion's chat but that was it. The cancellation of his Zoom chat came soon after the Fisher accusations arose.

What happened? Hmmm...

* Buffy the Vampire Star Charisma Carpenter speaks out about Joss Whedon.

* To date... Sarah Michelle Gellar, Amber Bensen and Michelle Trachenberg have verified Charisma's statements

Gellar and Trachenberg did it on Instagram - neither are on Twitter. Amber Bensen and Charisma posted it on Twitter.

Gellar and Trachenberg's Instagram posts:

"While I am proud to have my name associated with Buffy Summers, I don’t want to be forever associated with the name Joss Whedon. I am more focused on raising my family and surviving a pandemic currently, so I will not be making any further statements at this time. but I stand with all survivors of abuse and am proud of them for speaking out." [Note Gellar had stopped talking to Whedon after Buffy ended, and did not do a guest appearance on Angel S5. She also has distanced herself from him over the years.]

Michelle Trachtenberg, who played Buffy's younger sister, Dawn Summers, from 2000-03, responded to Gellar's post with her own accusation against Whedon, writing, "Thank you sarahmgellar for saying this. I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman....To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior....very. Not. Appropriate." [ ETA: MT updated her Instagram response to state as follows: "So now. People know. What Joss. Did. The last. Comment I will make on this was a rule. Saying. He's not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again." ]


Charisma's on Twitter - which sheds more light on the pregnancy bit than we knew. I'd been told a story about it long before - this, by Dochawk on the ATPOBTVS Board. Dochawk's best friend was an Assistant Producer on Angel to David Greenwalt - so he basically knew everything that was going to happen on Buffy and Angel. Anyhow, Doc told me in December of 2002 that Cordelia was going to be the Big Bad, but then someone else would come in, and be the true big bad and take over. He gave details. Every single one happened on the show - so I VERY spoiled for Angel S4. Annoyingly so. He also told me that Whedon had intended on Cordy becoming the Big Bad and Connor killing her at the end of the season. Apparently, Fox and WB had issues with both Charisma and Greenwalt's behavior on set, and wanted Joss to get rid of them or play the bad guy. Joss was busy with Firefly and Buffy, at the time, and really didn't care that much about Angel in S3. This was in S3 that they made the request. But shortly after that - Greenwalt left to take another job, and Whedon wrote a great story (according to Tim Minear) where Cordy would be the big bad - when whoops she got pregnant over the summer. Minear stated that it screwed up Joss's entire story. And he was pissed. They had to rewrite all of it. Because you can't really have the Big Bad Pregnant Lady. (She was going to be fired either way. But ironically - getting Pregnant may have saved her character, even if it put the actress through a living hell - because Whedon punished her for it.)

Go HERE for Carpenter's lengthy statement on Twitter.

And Amber Benson (Tara) who supports it and retweeted Charisma's with this : Buffy was a toxic environment and it starts at the top. allcharisma
is speaking truth and I support her 100%. There was a lot of damage done during that time and many of us are still processing it twenty plus years later. #IStandWithRayFisher #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter - Amber Benson
amber_benson

[Which explains why Benson refused to return to Buffy and hasn't worked with Whedon again. Nor have the others that came forward.]

And.. Wonder Woman Star Gail Gadot states she did not have the best experience with Whedon.

This is all on top of...Ray Fishers accusations about Whedon's behavior on the set of The Justice League reshoot. (Note HBO MAX is due to release the Zack Snyder cut on Justice League sometime this month.)

Ray Fisher accuses Joss Whedon of inappropriate behavior on the set of Justice League which lead to an investigation at Warner [Note Fisher's accusations came out in July, right after this, Whedon dropped out of San Diego Comic Con - he was scheduled for Q&A with Whedon. Also Whedon was supposed to be the new show-runner for DC, but they changed their mind after Justice League.]

Kai Cole comes forward with Whedon is a Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals

And... The Cut - Joss Whedon's Controveries and Alleged Bad Behavior - A Guide AND Screen Rant - Whedon's abuse misconduct allegations and accusations explained.

And...sigh, I know from various Q&A'swith both the Buffy and Angel casts, along with remarks made by Whedon himself, that Whedon allowed and thought it was hilarious that David Boreanze wandered around the set flashing female cast and crew members with his penis. He didn't wear pants. He also really only did it with the women. (Marsters was shocked when Dusku and Benz were discussing it with laughter during a Q&A.)

Once again...that ever-troubling quandry, can we look past the personal actions of the writer/creator and still enjoy his/her/their art? I believe so, particularly in television - since it's collaborative and more than one voice was involved. It can be more difficult in other art forms of course. Also people are more than one thing - so an abusive person can create beautiful art - see Orson Scott Card, George RR Martin, Denis Quaid, Bruce Willis, TS Eliot , F Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Virgina Woolf, JK Rowling, Ronald Dahl, Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Owen Tarrantino, Mel Gibson, etc.. Still it is troubling. Can we love the art, without supporting actions we despise?

I can't say any of this surprises me, as you know from reading this journal, I've known about most of this for quite some time now and struggled over the years - because it brings up a troubling dilemma.

Can you continue to love the works of an artist - who is proven to be abusive?

I keep reminding myself that people are more than one thing. And Whedon may well have been attempting to examine his own abusive impulses through his work. I certainly saw that long before anything came to light. Also it occurs to me that Whedon didn't create his shows alone, there were many people involved. But it is troubling. All you have to do is watch Q&A's with Marsters, Carpenter, Benz, Dusku, Brendan, Benson, Emma, et all from around 2003 onwards. Even before that. It's there in the subtext.

It's not like we didn't see it - we did, as far back as 2002, we saw it. We discussed it. And we struggled with it.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently with my manager - this was yesterday, actually. We were talking about an attorney who we both liked, and who liked us. My manager is Persian, and a person of color. She hails from the Middle East. And has a difficult to pronounce name. She is also the wife of a cop, and has a black son and daughter. Every workplace I've been in since moving to NYC has been diverse racially. That's one of the reasons I adore NYC.

Me: I liked Mr. C (a lawyer) until Lando told me that he said " I won't work with that (N word)."
Manager: Yes, but there may be more to this story? I mean Mr. C was from a certain era and people used that word back then. It wasn't a big deal. I know my parents did, and I know others have. And even now the language is constantly changing - I found out today that the word tomboy is all wrong and there's another word for it that I can't even remember that my daughter told me - that shocked me.
Me: True. And we both know that Lando was hardly politically correct. (He wasn't.)
Manager: Exactly. He was far from it.
Me: And he wasn't exactly easy to work with - it could have been about something other than race.
Manager: Yes, I don't think Mr. C was necessarily racist.
ME: I keep telling myself that people are more than one thing. It's not so clear cut. And you can be an asshole regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc.

New York and social media have certainly proved that to me. Asshole, sometimes I think, is a human default setting.

I'm not excusing his behavior, far from it. But, I think we need to demonize the behavior not the man. And I saw that in his works - which also were troubling and more than one thing, filled with shades of grey - in which he appeared to be struggling to deal with his own demons and demonic urges. As I've said before and will say again, there's a lot of Angelus and Spike in Joss Whedon - and I think through those two characters he often examined his own demons.

As to the abusive behavior - a lot of this is due to the industry. The Entertainment industry across the board is not a safe or kind industry to work in. The Railroad, believe it or not, is kinder. Actually it's the kindest one that I've worked in - possibly because it is public and government? Don't know. Publishing was by far the worst - do not work in publishing. I was interviewed by a woman writing a book on serial bullying, and she informed me that of all the people she'd interviewed in her book that had been harassed and bullied in the work place - about 85% were in the publishing industry. And I remember a recruiter telling me once that I did not want to work for NBC - because their interview process was putting you in the center of the room, shining a spotlight on you, and yelling at you.
When I worked at the video game developer - my boss informed me that CBS, NBC, Fox, and ABC were all just as bad. Horrible environments to work in.
Do not work in television.

And I just watched a roundtable with Christopher Plummer, Charlize Therone, Viola Davis, George Clooney and Tilda Swinton - and they also adressed the problem - of how producers and directors often look at women as little more than sex objects. And being an older, not necessarily thin, black woman in this industry was painful.

Look at every series you love - and look deep, can you honestly say there's no misogyny, racism, or issues there? Or with the creators? Shondra Rhimes has a horrible reputation, and she's a woman. And Bryan Singer. And my brother told me stories about people out in LA such as Tim Burton, Oliver Stone, Stephen Spielberg not to mention what it was like working on Love Crimes, that made me rethink a career as a screenwriter or in film. After interviewing a few people and working with a media rep for the music industry, I ran as far away as I could get from that industry. It's an industry that attracts narcissistic assholes and allows and promotes bad behavior.

It shouldn't be shocking that the Me#Too Movement and Times Up came out of that industry. Hitchcock was a creep who sexually harassed and bullied his female actors. Kubrick was impossible to work with. Malick abused his actors. Oliver Stone peed on his sets. Burton overworked his staff.

When bad behavior is promoted or allowed folks will do it. David Boreanze wandered about pantless on sets. Pulled practical jokes. Flashed his penis. And got into trouble for sexual harrassment on the set of Bones - he's still doing well. The star of Bull sexually harassed Eliza Dusku and that show is still on the air. Is it his fault or the environment that allows it or both?

I don't know the answers to any of the questions I've posed. If I did, I wouldn't feel the need to write about it in my journal. It bothers me. I remember Jodi Foster and Whoopie Goldberg defending Mel Gibson - who came across an an anti-semitic racist misogynist. But do we know? We don't.

That's the problem with the information age - we have all this information at our fingertips, but we don't really know what to do with it, what is true, or how to react. And when we do believe the truth - then what?

Do we stop reading or loving Harry Potter because JK Rowlings is an transphobe and sexist? Or do we stop watching and adoring Buffy, Firefly, Angel or Dollhouse or even The Avengers and Avengers Age of Ultron because Whedon has exhibited abusive and asshole behavior on set and caused a toxic work environment?

I don't think so. I hope not. I think we need to see the whole person, not just the actions. It's kind of like how we might look at a favorite fictional character? Spike was horrific in some ways, but not in others, should I feel wrong for liking the character - as long as I condemned the actions I despised? It's a question the writers ask.

Do we hate our children because of what they do? Do we hate each other because of what we do? Or just the actions?

I've been asking myself this question a lot lately. Every time I see a maskless wonder - and I saw many today. Or the lawyer yells at me over Teams. Or I see Trump or his cronies or watch in tears as my nation's capital is raided. Or when George Floyd is killed. So much of 2020, the last few years really, I've felt myself consumed with rage. Kill them. I'd think.
Two shots to the head, two to the heart - dead. No such thing as a good Trump Supporter. No such thing as a Good Republican. And then, I'd take a huge step back and remind myself of the kindness I'd received from those who I personally know that are both. And I'd remind myself of my New Year's resolution two years running now - be kind no matter what. The kind part isn't the hard part - what's hard, insanely so, you've no idea or maybe you do? The hard part is "no matter what".

Perhaps it is just me - but people have been showing an increasing amount of asshole behavior of late. I want to smack them.

Do we condemn the people or the asshole behavior? And does the asshole behavior cancel out the good, or is it the opposite?

And finally back to my initial question - do we condemn the art and the works of a creator, whose other behavior and/or beliefs we find troubling or offensive? (In Whedon, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Woody Allen's case - it's the behavior not the ideology, in Orson Scott Card, JK Rowling, and TS Eliot it was the ideology and beliefs.) Or, as a friend once told me, do we still enjoy them because they give us insight to another point of view or show us something else - helping us to see that people are more than one thing, and what we can see in a work of art is often not what we see in the artist?

It's probably worth stating - and I almost forgot - there are works that are troubling in of themselves, while the creator isn't necessarily. American Psycho, Atlas Shrugged, Gone with the Wind, Me Before You, Fifty Shades of Grey, all come to mind. There others as well. Should they be expunged? I don't think so. Or maybe it just depends? It is important, I think, to look at them all with a critical eye.

Comments

[rose_griffes]

It's such a messy situation. Art and artist, solo or collaborative work, appreciate the message but not the messenger...

I'm glad that Carpenter was able to say more than she has before; I knew about the pregnancy situation and that Whedon was--at the very least--a controlling jerk. But hearing the new details is disturbing, to say the least. (Michelle Trachtenberg! Was just a kid!)

There are things that I'll always love, but I may choose to never re-experience them. I probably won't re-read Card's books, because I know I won't have the same feelings about them. (Not just that I know more about Card, but also, I'm in a different place in life.) But I can appreciate how important they used to be to me, even if I don't go back to them now.

[mefisto]

MT has updated her comments to say that there was a rule that Joss (it appears) was not allowed to be alone in a room with her. That's even more disturbing.

[shadowkat]

Oh dear god. Shudder. That is going to make things a lot harder. And...it does fit with Kai Cole's blog post - where she states Whedon wrote her a confession about how he'd been sleeping around with writers and actresses on the Buffy set. And he couldn't help himself, there were all these beautiful women on that set. (I remember thinking - uhm, Whedon, those actresses were twenty years younger than you. Some were in their late teens.)

And now...we have to give some credit to londonkds and others on the ATPO Board who kept picking up on Whedon and his weird obsession with little girls. Apparently they were on to something? I mean I kept trying to ignore it - but seriously - look at the pattern? He chose Sarah Michelle to play Buffy at the age of 17/18, and for her love interest, a guy who was 26 and a vampire that was old. Then Firefly? Summer Glau was this young beautiful girl. And there is Eliza Dusku - who was younger than Gellar when she came on as Faith. Also look at Dollhouse, not to mention the title of "Dollhouse". And the artist he chose for the comics - drew all the female characters as if they were adolescents.

[mefisto]

So far -- and I emphasize that -- MT hasn't said that the reason was sexual. In the context of everything else, it could have been "just" abuse of a different sort.

I remember people claiming that JM was not allowed to be alone with MT. I'm pretty sure that was false, but it's shocking that it was apparently Joss.

[shadowkat]

No, she just said that there was a rule that he not be allowed alone with her.

JM got into trouble for writing a song that may have been about MT. Also, JM started dating his wife when she was in high school - this was in Germany. She was about 17 or 18 at the time. She took him to her Prom. He married her when she turned twenty-two. And he wrote songs about it.

But I don't think he came on to MT (who had a huge crush on him) - mainly because he was too busy at the time and had much like Denisof - a policy of no longer dating cast members. (He'd dated the actress who played Harmony.)
Dusku did come on to him - but he blew her off. That was the rumor on JM, how much of all of that is actually true? I don't know. The women haven't said a word, just fans.

[mefisto]

And now JM's wife is divorcing him. I doubt it's related, but who knows?

[shadowkat]

Wait - What? How do you know this? Where was this posted? Details!

ETA - I can't say I'm all that surprised. They are stuck together in lock down during a pandemic. And usually they weren't together that much. And he's much much older than her - by about 20-30 years. He's almost 60 and she's 30. And he spends most of his time doing Zoom, audio books, and playing video games. I saw it coming - a mile a way. But I'm also surprised.

[mefisto]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/entertainment/other/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-star-james-marsters-and-wife-patricia-rahman-split-after-10-years-of-marriage/ar-BB1dn35a?%3Bocid=spartandhp

10 years is a long marriage in that industry.

[shadowkat]

I found multiple articles - one had JM filing divorce papers. Yep, 10 years is a long marriage in that industry. And my guess is the pandemic killed his marriage. The pandemic has killed a lot of relationships to date.

He's been really quiet on social media of late - posts mainly about his son's work and his cons. And he's also gotten really careful with it. He sees it as toxic and manages it well. Gellar is equally careful. Both have been burned.

(Television gossip amuses me - it's this weird schadenfreud bit, I think?)

[mefisto]

I have to say that it's nothing short of miraculous that *I* was the one to tell *you* gossip about JM. :)

[shadowkat]

LMAO!

Yes, that fact is not at all lost on me. He didn't post it on Twitter. But it does explain why he's barely on it now, and has been quiet of late - just talking about his kid, and not at all about his wife.

[shadowkat]

Marsters finally tweeted his support:

James Marsters@JamesMarstersOf -

"While I will always be honored to have played the character of Spike, the Buffy set was not without challenges. I do not support abuse of any kind, and am heartbroken to learn of the experiences of some of the cast. I send my love and support to all involved."

[mefisto]

He's like ASH: I didn't know about this but it's terrible.

Still no writer, no director, no AtS cast except for a vague message of support from JAR.

[shadowkat]

Yep, very vague. Similar to Gellar's as well, which was vague. J. August and Clem also provided vague support. But, if you look over interviews, Q&A, etc - they've all talked about it. I think Marsters comment was carefully prepared as was Gellar's - neither wanted to talk about it, and both have moved on. Also neither wanted to take anything away from Charisma. Both posted similar blanket statements - making me wonder if they discussed it. ASH was blindsided on a talk show.

Correct, no one really from ATS. Okay not completely true. Mere Smith - who was a break down writer, and wrote episodes, retweeted Charismas, and supported it.

I'll be surprised if any of the others do. Franz Katz and Alan Tudyk both said that they didn't experience anything - but they are also both white men and didn't threaten Whedon.

Marsters did state that he had experienced things. As has Gellar in the past. So they've both talked about it interviews. And he even supported her reasons for wanting to leave Buffy, noting that it was a difficult set to work on. But I don't think everyone knew about Michelle or Charisma. Charisma didn't tell anyone the full story.

They did know it was a toxic environment - and that has a lot to do with Fox and Warner Brothers (WB), both were toxic places to work in. This all came out of the Warner Brothers investigation into Ray Fisher's claims about Joss Whedon's reshoot of Justice League. Ray Fisher got fired from the Flash for his allegations against Whedon, and filed a lawsuit against Warner Brothers - which resulted in an internal legal investigation. Fisher's lawyers contacted Charisma and asked her to testify on what happened on Angel, they also contacted other shows. Charisma came forward - and when she did, and her story was verified, then Gail Gadot who also verified her bad experience, and Jason Momoa did...Whedon left the Nevers, and left social media. All of that happened behind the scenes. After Whedon left the Nevers - people blamed Fisher, and no one believed him (I was skeptical), and that's why Charisma came forward - and it's why Amber and Sarah and Michelle all supported her. Because no one was believing Fisher, and alone, no one would believe Charisma.

God, all of this sounds so familiar to me. It's what happened to me in 2001-2002, and it's why I got so obsessed with the Buffy story. I had a boss who isolated me, and gaslit me, and no one would support me - except for two people who had no power, and they left the company at the same time I did.
I had friendship almost fall apart because of it. Why didn't my friends support me - because they were scared and didn't want to lose their job and career. But to this day, I still have serious trust issues. And I was in my thirties, with a law degree. And it wasn't sexual. I also didn't say anything or report it - I couldn't. And my workplace was so toxic and hostile - it broke every HR rule imaginable, that my only recourse was to leave and not look back. And I wasn't alone in that. My friend who couldn't support me at the time, also had a nervous breakdown because of the abuse. And it took her years to pull herself back together again. The fact that this sort of thing is so prevalent in our society...is troubling. I'm hoping that things will change.

[mefisto]

Ok, MN has now issued a statement that "I would like to validate what the women of Buffy are saying and support them in telling their story....I understand where Charisma, Amber, Michelle and all the women who have spoken out are coming from."

That sounds pretty bad for Joss.

[mefisto]

And now a Firefly writer says Joss was "casually cruel". https://i.redd.it/4d4zvpluf5h61.jpg

[shadowkat]

It's interesting what is coming to the surface. It also explains why Whedon jumped off social media in November. I think he knew it was about to hit the fan - because of that Warner Brothers/HBO investigation. Keep in mind AT&T bought Time Warner and HBO. They are under new management, and AT&T is cleaning house.

I expect to see more before this is done.

People want details and not vague support. But honestly, I'm not sure some of them can do much more than they have already.

[jesuswasbatman]

It wasn't purely "little girls" so much as you could see that he had a specific "type" that did not reflect too well on him as a person. Ultra thin, psychologically tormented in a way that made them fascinatingly unconventional and sexy, frequently barefoot. Dru. Fred. River. From what I hear, although I didn't watch the show, EVERYONE on Dollhouse.

[shadowkat]

I watched Dollhouse - and yes, all the women on Dollhouse fit that description - except for the woman who ran the Dollhouse. Often super-powered, and lethal.

Buffy, Willow, Fred/Illyria, Dawn, Faith, River, Echo, etc. And if you have seen the Buffy movie? God. Also, it's true in Cabin in the Woods, Agents of Shield, and to a degree the Avengers. There's a definite pattern.

He famously didn't want to hire Amber Benson because he thought she was not thin enough - and Marti Noxon loved Amber and talked him into hiring her. (He said in a commentary with Seth Green that she was the wrong body type and he didn't see how she would be appealing...but Marti insisted.) I think it was commentary or maybe an interview. I remember it - because it bothered me at the time.

[rose_griffes]

I remember that commentary about Benson, and being really disappointed that it was even mentioned. Especially since I did appreciate seeing a not-stick-thin woman onscreen.

Joss Whedon had almost nothing to do with Agents of SHIELD, I believe. His brother and his sister-in-law Maurissa Tancharoen worked together on it. My impression was that they used the Joss's fame to help get things rolling, but Jed and Maurissa did basically all the work.

(But take that with a grain of salt. I nearly always end up binge-watching AoS when the seasons finally show up on Netflix, so that means missing a lot of the news related to the show.)

[shadowkat]

No, you're mostly correct on AoS. Joss had nothing to do with it after the first couple of episodes. His brother and sister-in-law took over, then Jeffrey Bell was pulled in to help with the show-running and heavy lifting. Marvel also pretty much controlled everything. Jeff Loeb controlled that. Whedon had very little say in anything. This was true with the MCU too - they replaced Whedon as head showrunner with the Russo's after Ultron. And Kevin Feige had most of the control. Whedon was a hired gun in both situations.

I haven't watched Agents - but I know some of the back story. Television gossip amuses me. I get an odd schadenfreud from it - oh, thank god, I'm not doing that for a living. It's kind of similar, I guess, to why some people watch reality television?

It's easier to binge watch some shows than watch live, I think. I may go find AoS on Netflix and binge watch seasons there. Also considering re-watch Vamp Diaries. I want fluff, dang-it.

[mtbc]

I indeed tend toward thinking that people are more than one thing, that their works are another thing again. Also, I want to feel able to still reach out to the good parts of people in the hope that it helps them to a better path.

Still, goodness, television sounds dreadful and your point about it being collaborative relates to a big problem: people knew this was going on and failed to address it adequately, probably still do. I enjoy the sausage but that doesn't excuse how it's made.

[shadowkat]

Right now, a bunch of scholars on Whedon Studies on FB - are trying to figure out how to handle this going forward. Do they change their names? Do they continue to study the works? To what degree can they separate it?

The more things that are coming out - the harder it is becoming to ignore it. Television admittedly is easier to ignore directors and writers on, but, it does color things in some ways.

[kingstoken]

I was never really into Buffy, or some of his other projects, but it was hard not to know who Joss Whedon was. I remember awhile ago, before all the accusations came out, there were people that were saying that he was deeply misogynistic, but others would often brush it off.

As for separating the art from the creator, in my opinion I think it is a little bit easier to separate a TV show from it's creator, because there was an entire team of people making a TV show, and it is not just the showrunner, in fact it is not unusual for some shows to have multiple different showrunners. I think it is harder to separate a book from it's writer, because in that case it is only one creator.

[shadowkat]

Agreed. It's much easier with television - half the time you're not even that aware of the writer on television and film, much to the annoyance of the writer. You can ignore the credits.

And because its so collaborative - it's hard to really know how much is one writer over another. Also hostile film sets often don't translate to the film or television show itself. You can't tell - it all comes out in the editing.

[jesuswasbatman]

Oh, Brett Easton Ellis is an absolute arsehole in public, let alone whatever he's like in private.

[shadowkat]

"My auto-correct was prudish" - LMAO!

I didn't know much about Easton Ellis outside of his works. But I am not surprised. I really do not like his writing at all.

[cactuswatcher]

It's hard to convince young people not to try to make heroes out of their favorite creators, singers, writers etc. They are just people and they can get fat heads just like normal people.

I do feel sorry for people who feel like they were bullied or worse by Whedon. but I'm not throwing my Buffy DVD's in the trash over it.

I remember my Russian Poetry instructor talking about being in a group in Russia literally sitting at the feet of a famous poet, Joseph Brodsky, listening to him philosophize and recite poetry. Within a year I'd been in the same room with the guy a few times. His method of reciting poetry was more comical that impressive. He spent several lectures pontificating and telling a bunch of grad students they were wasting their time, because they'd never really be able to appreciate Russian poetry, at all. In one session he personally insulted my girlfriend and made her cry. A few years later he won a Nobel Prize. Years after that, the same woman who'd been my girlfriend published several serious, unbiased, papers on his works helping her keep her job as a professor. You have to forget the person behind the work or you can miss a lot of good quality things. Cancel culture is a mistake, even if it's understandable. People shouldn't live their whole lives like they are in the cool clique in high school

Adding to your list, from all reports Solzhenitsyn was kind of a jerk. Ezra Pound was a Nazi. You don't have to look to hard to find great artists who were less than great human beings.

[shadowkat]

You don't have to look to hard to find great artists who were less than great human beings.

Unfortunately - very true. Problem is no one is perfect. And most famous folks really aren't. There was horrible things that came out about Mother Teresa a few years back. Yes, Mother Teresa.

Human default setting? Selfish asshole. LOL!

Cancel culture is a mistake, even if it's understandable. People shouldn't live their whole lives like they are in the cool clique in high school

A lot of Buffy fans are grappling with this in a way. Whedon Studies Association is struggling with it - do they change their name? Maybe Mutant Enemy Studies or GRrr Argh Studies? I mean who wouldn't want their name associated with a group of scholars who spend their time studying, presenting on, teaching courses on, and analyzing their work? Talk about stroking a creator's ego.
Whedonesque has similar struggled - they took down their site after the Kai Cole statement and just went on Twitter, now they aren't sure what to do.

One of the male scholars even wrote a blog post discussing it : Once More with Feeling the Legacy of Joss Whedon - arguing against cancel culture, yet at the same time arguing against hero worship.

I have to say I never went quite as far as a lot of folks did with the shows. I wrote meta. I got the DVDs, I discussed it on the board, and I read interviews and watched things on the internet. I do not own any action figures, I don't have signed items, and I got rid of all of his comics ages ago. I recently disposed of another set this past fall. I never went to a con. I never felt the need to meet him in person. Nor, would I say I like him all that much or ever really did. I liked the show. I did not love Dollhouse, and I'm no crazy about Firefly, or some of his other stuff. Nor do I feel the need to re-watch Dollhouse or Firefly to be honest - I found both to be highly problematic. Buffy - I'll always love, Angel a touch less so.

But yeah, I'm not going to delete my writings on it, or throw out the DVDs. I may get rid of the DVDs because I don't have the room - and I no longer have a DVD player set up. But that has nothing to do with Whedon.

Anymore than I'm going to stop loving Harry Potter, because JK Rowling is transphobic.

[mefisto]

I agree with your overall take on art/artists, and your description of the issues matches my memory from the time.

One thing really stands out to me from the reports thus far: all those supporting CC were Buffy actors (and not all of them, even). Nothing but silence from AtS actors, and no writers at all. This suggests to me that (a) these are general statements of support since it's unlikely the Buffy actors had any personal knowledge of the AtS set; and (b) their support means that Joss was an asshole to them and probably others on Buffy.

[gillo]

I would very much like to see something from some of the men - ASH, JM, DB and so on. Or were they so used to such conduct on set and not themselves susceptible to it that they really didn't notice?

[mefisto]

I saw this morning that ASH said he was unaware of such conduct but thought it awful that it occurred.

If the men don't say anything else, the natural conclusion is that Joss was abusive to the female actors but not the male actors. Ick.

[shadowkat]

Yes, and no.

You know as well as I do that both Nick Brendan and James Marsters have talked about it at the cons, often in the Q&A's. Brendan stated that Whedon was on top of him - and pressured him to get every word right. The "The" is there for a reason. Marsters reported that Gellar asked that Juliet and him be provided chairs on set. And that Whedon pushed him up against a wall and threatened him - because he was getting too much fan response and Whedon wanted him thrown off set. Marsters also stated how uncomfortable he was in the 6th season, with no protection in various scenes where he had to appear nude and no one else was. And how in the 7th season he begged to be allowed to keep his shirt on. Also, he told people that it was Buffy the Weekend Slayer - and how they'd sneak the crew and cast in on weekends against labor policy to do overtime, and often reshot into the early morning hours. Beneath You? They shot the entire episode. Whedon hated the dailys and had them stay and reshoot it all again, after telling everyone that their episode sucked and he would save them. He criticized their acting. Etc. All this has been talked about.

If I were Marsters and Brendan - I'd stay out of it. Marsters rarely posts on social media, and Brendan rarely does. It's a lot harder to come out about that stuff...

[mefisto]

Oh yeah, I definitely am aware that the overall working conditions were very hard.

I see that a bit differently than personal abuse. While Marsters has described the incident where Joss told him he would kill off his character, he went on to say that he felt that that he needed a kick in the pants. Now, obviously a man would interpret being shoved against a wall very differently than a woman would, and of course Marsters was older than most of the cast. Still, that does sound like Joss being abusive even if Marsters didn't necessarily take it that way. My point is only that Joss may have been worse to the female cast and if that's true, then, well, ick.

[shadowkat]

I think he probably was - and if he's anything like I've seen over my lifetime? He targeted some people and left others alone. My guess is he targeted the folks who spoke up, and treated others fine and with respect. I've seen that happen. It's why the abuse is so hard to prove - it's not widespread and often targeted. And - often the bully gets support from those who he hasn't targeted, and spreads rumors about those that he has - ie. gaslighting. And he often targets people who are more isolated within a group, who are less likely to say anything or if they do, won't be believed.

[shadowkat]

DB was part of the problem - he wandered about freely on the Buffy and Angel sets pantless flashing female stars with his penis. And playing practical jokes. He had a lot of power. And Whedon liked him and Denisof.

JM has discussed it openly at Q&As and cons, and may have gotten into trouble for it? But its there - he was having his hair bleached almost weekly, among other things. He makes excuses for Whedon at various points - at one point, one of his cast mates on a panel tells him that the behavior he's excusing is inexcusable. Marsters had no power. Brendan also has mentioned the abuse at cons, he has no power. But to come out now - I can see why they'd be hesitant, both have backed away from social media during the pandemic.

ASH wouldn't have seen it. Whedon needed ASH more than ASH needed Whedon, and was long gone during the height of it. So much of this sort of thing is subtle. For example? Marsters didn't know DB was flashing women with his penis on Angel and Buffy and was shocked. (He wouldn't. It didn't happen when he was on set.)

So I can sort of understand why they've been silent. I'm mostly curious to see if JM says anything - because he's close with Benson, Gellar, and Chase - and would have known, and has commented on it.

[shadowkat]

Update:

JM just tweeted this response:

"James Marsters
jamesmarstersof
·
20m
While I will always be honored to have played the character of Spike, the Buffy set was not without challenges. I do not support abuse of any kind, and am heartbroken to learn of the experiences of some of the cast. I send my love and support to all involved."

ASH stated he was gutted by it.

And James Leary tweeted his support. (Clem)

I've been told the NB did - but I can't find it.

And I did see J August Richards who tweeted his support as well as Eliza Dusku.

Steven DeKnight had a weird tweet - where he stated that anyone who critiqued his past work with dispargment would be summarily muted. And no one understood what he was talking about. (A lot of people don't remember that he wrote for Buffy.)

[shadowkat]

One thing really stands out to me from the reports thus far: all those supporting CC were Buffy actors (and not all of them, even). Nothing but silence from AtS actors, and no writers at all. This suggests to me that (a) these are general statements of support since it's unlikely the Buffy actors had any personal knowledge of the AtS set; and (b) their support means that Joss was an asshole to them and probably others on Buffy.

Yep. A lot of this happened on Buffy. Charisma indicates that it pre-existed Angel in her testimonial. (And you won't hear anything from the ATS actors. A lot of them didn't like her, and Whedon played favorites.)

We all sort of knew that Charisma, Sarah and Amber had problems with Whedon and the work environment. As did Emma Caulfield - who told them to kill her off in S7, that she would not be returning if they continued. I mean it was mentioned at various Q&A's and Gellar hinted at it in interviews and had stopped speaking about the show or anything for a long time.

Marsters and Brendan have mentioned things in the past, but are wisely staying out of it now. Mainly because neither are in position to do so without being attacked themselves. (Both have been by fans in the past for things in their personal lives or personal issues.)

Hannigan and Denisof are well best friends with Whedon. Also Hannigan has already stated she doesn't remember anything that happened on Buffy and refuses to discuss it.

Marti mentioned it...but only subtextually, and can't without hurting herself.

Espenson will stay quiet.

Acker was close to Whedon and he's treated her well - she got special treatment. As did Dusku, although Dusku mentioned stuff on the fly at various cons. Karheiser hated working on Angel and said as much years ago. He said it was the worst working experience he'd had.

I don't think it happened on Firefly or Agents of Shield. But Whedon wasn't really as in charge on Agents, he was off it after two episodes. Firefly? It was too early in, only 13 episodes.

Having been in abusive workplaces myself? I can tell you that you don't come forward. You back away and say nothing, hoping it goes away. I was victimized, but when I went for support - no one would come forward. You risk a lot when you do - particularly during a pandemic. Right now there's a 99% unemployment rate in the acting industry. The one's who supported her - may not have as much to lose.

I'd have been more skeptical - if it weren't for the fact that this has been under a slow boil for some time now. Heck we were discussing some of it as far back as 2002 on fan boards - remember the stunt worker scandal? Or Whedon dismissing Gellar off-hand as a diva? Also clearly something broke in November, because Whedon fled social media in November, after fleeing The Nevers...when he'd been a constant presence on Twitter up to then. Also he opted out of San Diego Comic Con over the summer for the most part.

The problem is - you know as well as I do - that asshole behavior is often allowed and encouraged on television and film sets, and in our culture. And there's little folks can do about it. You complain? You're character is killed off. Whedon pretty much threatened Marsters with character death constantly. And Amber - he told her that he was killing her off. Seth Green left during S4, wonder why? I listened to the commentary with Seth and Whedon, it was awkward.

ASH was gutted and astonished by it. He knew nothing - but he wouldn't. Most abuse is done in private or on the side, so you feel gaslit. The 45 was a master at it - look at the impeachment trial - there's people who still believe he's done nothing wrong.

[deird1]

ASH was gutted and astonished by it. He knew nothing - but he wouldn't. Most abuse is done in private or on the side, so you feel gaslit.

I can currently relate to this in my personal life. My friends - who I've known for the entire course of their fifteen-year marriage - recently separated. And apparently he was abusing her for the entire length of their relationship. My friend, who I saw weekly - and I had no idea. None of us did.

It's rather crazy, having to reassess everything.

(I mention this mainly because I only just connected the dots between that and this. I've been wondering why this felt so utterly unsurprising to me; but I've been mentally processing my friends' situation for a couple of months now, so I'd already done most of the legwork for processing the Joss Whedon debacle.)

[shadowkat]

Yeah, me too. I've kind of been there as well. People truly are complicated, and capable of horrible and wonderful things at the same time. There's a weird cognitive dissonance - how to equate the two?

[gillo]

Adding to your list, Dickens treated his wife atrociously; John Milton was an abusive parent and probably husband, Edmund Spencer saw Irish people as no better than animals; Shelley treated his first wife atrociously; Byron was a serial abuser. The Narnia books have some dreadful racist tropes, and so do many children's books up to and including the 60s. HG Wells attempted (while married to someone else) to run off with E Nesbit's underage daughter.

You don't have to look too far to find shits who were also creative geniuses. We could add many more. We have to separate the work from the artist. That doesn't excuse Whedon; it makes him merely a man of his time, class and context. Until a very few years ago everyone assumed people behaved this way but didn't talk about it. I think some of CC's allegations may have been skewed emotionally, though I don't doubt that her truth is her truth.

[shadowkat]

Dickens was nasty, as was allegedly Shakespeare. It's a very long list.

But yeah, we do need to some degree at least to separate the art from the creator, yet by the same token apply a critical eye to it.

[slaymesoftly]

Very balanced and well written article. Life is messy and complicated, and so are the people in it. Kudos.

[shadowkat]

Thank you.

[avrelia]

I am glad that people are talking about it openly with the intention: it was shitty behavior, and we all new it was shitty, but it was perceived as the norm, but it shouldn't be the norm. We shouldn't expect toxic atmosphere to be the norm in any industry.

I remember working in a toxic office atmosphere. I was well paid, and not personally harassed, and I needed the money so I couldn't just leave - similar positions were impossible to find. But it was literally soul-destroying.

For me - I enjoy what I enjoy, and I can't stop loving Buffy because of Whedon, since the show, and the fandom brought me so much joy and meaning. It's not just Whedon's work, but it is very much his baby, and all the mess and troublesome issues are a part of it. Still, I love it.

[shadowkat]

Feel much the same way. I don't think I'll stop loving Buffy, but I do think he needs to be held accountable and prevented from continuing the abuse. Which has to a degree happened. He's pretty much done - as Stephen Colbert posted. And it's notable that Whedon left social media completely in November - he's not tweeted or posted anything since then. And he was tweeting constantly over the summer. He also left the Nevers. So...I think he may well be done. At least for now.