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shadowkatDecided to separate this stuff from my daily lockdown update.
Well, we now have confirmation on why Whedon left social media completely in November, and HBO's The Nevers in October - with only six episodes completed (there's a new show-runner hired - who is a British female feminist writer and activist). (Kind of already knew why - but it was admittedly at that point mainly speculation.) I was speculating and giving Whedon the benefit of the doubt on why he left - because it could have been for personal reasons like he said. But I also thought it was a touch suspicious that he left Twitter completely in November 2020. (The man had been tweeting constantly during the summer). And he was a no-show at San Diego Comic Con, after having a scheduled one-on-one - to advertise the Nevers. He did kind of make a quick appearance on Fillion's chat but that was it. The cancellation of his Zoom chat came soon after the Fisher accusations arose.
What happened? Hmmm...
* Buffy the Vampire Star Charisma Carpenter speaks out about Joss Whedon.
* To date... Sarah Michelle Gellar, Amber Bensen and Michelle Trachenberg have verified Charisma's statements
Gellar and Trachenberg did it on Instagram - neither are on Twitter. Amber Bensen and Charisma posted it on Twitter.
Gellar and Trachenberg's Instagram posts:
"While I am proud to have my name associated with Buffy Summers, I don’t want to be forever associated with the name Joss Whedon. I am more focused on raising my family and surviving a pandemic currently, so I will not be making any further statements at this time. but I stand with all survivors of abuse and am proud of them for speaking out." [Note Gellar had stopped talking to Whedon after Buffy ended, and did not do a guest appearance on Angel S5. She also has distanced herself from him over the years.]
Michelle Trachtenberg, who played Buffy's younger sister, Dawn Summers, from 2000-03, responded to Gellar's post with her own accusation against Whedon, writing, "Thank yousarahmgellar for saying this. I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman....To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior....very. Not. Appropriate." [ ETA: MT updated her Instagram response to state as follows: "So now. People know. What Joss. Did. The last. Comment I will make on this was a rule. Saying. He's not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again." ]
Charisma's on Twitter - which sheds more light on the pregnancy bit than we knew. I'd been told a story about it long before - this, by Dochawk on the ATPOBTVS Board. Dochawk's best friend was an Assistant Producer on Angel to David Greenwalt - so he basically knew everything that was going to happen on Buffy and Angel. Anyhow, Doc told me in December of 2002 that Cordelia was going to be the Big Bad, but then someone else would come in, and be the true big bad and take over. He gave details. Every single one happened on the show - so I VERY spoiled for Angel S4. Annoyingly so. He also told me that Whedon had intended on Cordy becoming the Big Bad and Connor killing her at the end of the season. Apparently, Fox and WB had issues with both Charisma and Greenwalt's behavior on set, and wanted Joss to get rid of them or play the bad guy. Joss was busy with Firefly and Buffy, at the time, and really didn't care that much about Angel in S3. This was in S3 that they made the request. But shortly after that - Greenwalt left to take another job, and Whedon wrote a great story (according to Tim Minear) where Cordy would be the big bad - when whoops she got pregnant over the summer. Minear stated that it screwed up Joss's entire story. And he was pissed. They had to rewrite all of it. Because you can't really have the Big Bad Pregnant Lady. (She was going to be fired either way. But ironically - getting Pregnant may have saved her character, even if it put the actress through a living hell - because Whedon punished her for it.)
Go HERE for Carpenter's lengthy statement on Twitter.
And Amber Benson (Tara) who supports it and retweeted Charisma's with this : Buffy was a toxic environment and it starts at the top.allcharisma
is speaking truth and I support her 100%. There was a lot of damage done during that time and many of us are still processing it twenty plus years later. #IStandWithRayFisher #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter - Amber Benson
amber_benson
[Which explains why Benson refused to return to Buffy and hasn't worked with Whedon again. Nor have the others that came forward.]
And.. Wonder Woman Star Gail Gadot states she did not have the best experience with Whedon.
This is all on top of...Ray Fishers accusations about Whedon's behavior on the set of The Justice League reshoot. (Note HBO MAX is due to release the Zack Snyder cut on Justice League sometime this month.)
Ray Fisher accuses Joss Whedon of inappropriate behavior on the set of Justice League which lead to an investigation at Warner [Note Fisher's accusations came out in July, right after this, Whedon dropped out of San Diego Comic Con - he was scheduled for Q&A with Whedon. Also Whedon was supposed to be the new show-runner for DC, but they changed their mind after Justice League.]
Kai Cole comes forward with Whedon is a Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals
And... The Cut - Joss Whedon's Controveries and Alleged Bad Behavior - A Guide AND Screen Rant - Whedon's abuse misconduct allegations and accusations explained.
And...sigh, I know from various Q&A'swith both the Buffy and Angel casts, along with remarks made by Whedon himself, that Whedon allowed and thought it was hilarious that David Boreanze wandered around the set flashing female cast and crew members with his penis. He didn't wear pants. He also really only did it with the women. (Marsters was shocked when Dusku and Benz were discussing it with laughter during a Q&A.)
Once again...that ever-troubling quandry, can we look past the personal actions of the writer/creator and still enjoy his/her/their art? I believe so, particularly in television - since it's collaborative and more than one voice was involved. It can be more difficult in other art forms of course. Also people are more than one thing - so an abusive person can create beautiful art - see Orson Scott Card, George RR Martin, Denis Quaid, Bruce Willis, TS Eliot , F Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Virgina Woolf, JK Rowling, Ronald Dahl, Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Owen Tarrantino, Mel Gibson, etc.. Still it is troubling. Can we love the art, without supporting actions we despise?
I can't say any of this surprises me, as you know from reading this journal, I've known about most of this for quite some time now and struggled over the years - because it brings up a troubling dilemma.
Can you continue to love the works of an artist - who is proven to be abusive?
I keep reminding myself that people are more than one thing. And Whedon may well have been attempting to examine his own abusive impulses through his work. I certainly saw that long before anything came to light. Also it occurs to me that Whedon didn't create his shows alone, there were many people involved. But it is troubling. All you have to do is watch Q&A's with Marsters, Carpenter, Benz, Dusku, Brendan, Benson, Emma, et all from around 2003 onwards. Even before that. It's there in the subtext.
It's not like we didn't see it - we did, as far back as 2002, we saw it. We discussed it. And we struggled with it.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently with my manager - this was yesterday, actually. We were talking about an attorney who we both liked, and who liked us. My manager is Persian, and a person of color. She hails from the Middle East. And has a difficult to pronounce name. She is also the wife of a cop, and has a black son and daughter. Every workplace I've been in since moving to NYC has been diverse racially. That's one of the reasons I adore NYC.
Me: I liked Mr. C (a lawyer) until Lando told me that he said " I won't work with that (N word)."
Manager: Yes, but there may be more to this story? I mean Mr. C was from a certain era and people used that word back then. It wasn't a big deal. I know my parents did, and I know others have. And even now the language is constantly changing - I found out today that the word tomboy is all wrong and there's another word for it that I can't even remember that my daughter told me - that shocked me.
Me: True. And we both know that Lando was hardly politically correct. (He wasn't.)
Manager: Exactly. He was far from it.
Me: And he wasn't exactly easy to work with - it could have been about something other than race.
Manager: Yes, I don't think Mr. C was necessarily racist.
ME: I keep telling myself that people are more than one thing. It's not so clear cut. And you can be an asshole regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc.
New York and social media have certainly proved that to me. Asshole, sometimes I think, is a human default setting.
I'm not excusing his behavior, far from it. But, I think we need to demonize the behavior not the man. And I saw that in his works - which also were troubling and more than one thing, filled with shades of grey - in which he appeared to be struggling to deal with his own demons and demonic urges. As I've said before and will say again, there's a lot of Angelus and Spike in Joss Whedon - and I think through those two characters he often examined his own demons.
As to the abusive behavior - a lot of this is due to the industry. The Entertainment industry across the board is not a safe or kind industry to work in. The Railroad, believe it or not, is kinder. Actually it's the kindest one that I've worked in - possibly because it is public and government? Don't know. Publishing was by far the worst - do not work in publishing. I was interviewed by a woman writing a book on serial bullying, and she informed me that of all the people she'd interviewed in her book that had been harassed and bullied in the work place - about 85% were in the publishing industry. And I remember a recruiter telling me once that I did not want to work for NBC - because their interview process was putting you in the center of the room, shining a spotlight on you, and yelling at you.
When I worked at the video game developer - my boss informed me that CBS, NBC, Fox, and ABC were all just as bad. Horrible environments to work in.
Do not work in television.
And I just watched a roundtable with Christopher Plummer, Charlize Therone, Viola Davis, George Clooney and Tilda Swinton - and they also adressed the problem - of how producers and directors often look at women as little more than sex objects. And being an older, not necessarily thin, black woman in this industry was painful.
Look at every series you love - and look deep, can you honestly say there's no misogyny, racism, or issues there? Or with the creators? Shondra Rhimes has a horrible reputation, and she's a woman. And Bryan Singer. And my brother told me stories about people out in LA such as Tim Burton, Oliver Stone, Stephen Spielberg not to mention what it was like working on Love Crimes, that made me rethink a career as a screenwriter or in film. After interviewing a few people and working with a media rep for the music industry, I ran as far away as I could get from that industry. It's an industry that attracts narcissistic assholes and allows and promotes bad behavior.
It shouldn't be shocking that the Me#Too Movement and Times Up came out of that industry. Hitchcock was a creep who sexually harassed and bullied his female actors. Kubrick was impossible to work with. Malick abused his actors. Oliver Stone peed on his sets. Burton overworked his staff.
When bad behavior is promoted or allowed folks will do it. David Boreanze wandered about pantless on sets. Pulled practical jokes. Flashed his penis. And got into trouble for sexual harrassment on the set of Bones - he's still doing well. The star of Bull sexually harassed Eliza Dusku and that show is still on the air. Is it his fault or the environment that allows it or both?
I don't know the answers to any of the questions I've posed. If I did, I wouldn't feel the need to write about it in my journal. It bothers me. I remember Jodi Foster and Whoopie Goldberg defending Mel Gibson - who came across an an anti-semitic racist misogynist. But do we know? We don't.
That's the problem with the information age - we have all this information at our fingertips, but we don't really know what to do with it, what is true, or how to react. And when we do believe the truth - then what?
Do we stop reading or loving Harry Potter because JK Rowlings is an transphobe and sexist? Or do we stop watching and adoring Buffy, Firefly, Angel or Dollhouse or even The Avengers and Avengers Age of Ultron because Whedon has exhibited abusive and asshole behavior on set and caused a toxic work environment?
I don't think so. I hope not. I think we need to see the whole person, not just the actions. It's kind of like how we might look at a favorite fictional character? Spike was horrific in some ways, but not in others, should I feel wrong for liking the character - as long as I condemned the actions I despised? It's a question the writers ask.
Do we hate our children because of what they do? Do we hate each other because of what we do? Or just the actions?
I've been asking myself this question a lot lately. Every time I see a maskless wonder - and I saw many today. Or the lawyer yells at me over Teams. Or I see Trump or his cronies or watch in tears as my nation's capital is raided. Or when George Floyd is killed. So much of 2020, the last few years really, I've felt myself consumed with rage. Kill them. I'd think.
Two shots to the head, two to the heart - dead. No such thing as a good Trump Supporter. No such thing as a Good Republican. And then, I'd take a huge step back and remind myself of the kindness I'd received from those who I personally know that are both. And I'd remind myself of my New Year's resolution two years running now - be kind no matter what. The kind part isn't the hard part - what's hard, insanely so, you've no idea or maybe you do? The hard part is "no matter what".
Perhaps it is just me - but people have been showing an increasing amount of asshole behavior of late. I want to smack them.
Do we condemn the people or the asshole behavior? And does the asshole behavior cancel out the good, or is it the opposite?
And finally back to my initial question - do we condemn the art and the works of a creator, whose other behavior and/or beliefs we find troubling or offensive? (In Whedon, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Woody Allen's case - it's the behavior not the ideology, in Orson Scott Card, JK Rowling, and TS Eliot it was the ideology and beliefs.) Or, as a friend once told me, do we still enjoy them because they give us insight to another point of view or show us something else - helping us to see that people are more than one thing, and what we can see in a work of art is often not what we see in the artist?
It's probably worth stating - and I almost forgot - there are works that are troubling in of themselves, while the creator isn't necessarily. American Psycho, Atlas Shrugged, Gone with the Wind, Me Before You, Fifty Shades of Grey, all come to mind. There others as well. Should they be expunged? I don't think so. Or maybe it just depends? It is important, I think, to look at them all with a critical eye.
Well, we now have confirmation on why Whedon left social media completely in November, and HBO's The Nevers in October - with only six episodes completed (there's a new show-runner hired - who is a British female feminist writer and activist). (Kind of already knew why - but it was admittedly at that point mainly speculation.) I was speculating and giving Whedon the benefit of the doubt on why he left - because it could have been for personal reasons like he said. But I also thought it was a touch suspicious that he left Twitter completely in November 2020. (The man had been tweeting constantly during the summer). And he was a no-show at San Diego Comic Con, after having a scheduled one-on-one - to advertise the Nevers. He did kind of make a quick appearance on Fillion's chat but that was it. The cancellation of his Zoom chat came soon after the Fisher accusations arose.
What happened? Hmmm...
* Buffy the Vampire Star Charisma Carpenter speaks out about Joss Whedon.
* To date... Sarah Michelle Gellar, Amber Bensen and Michelle Trachenberg have verified Charisma's statements
Gellar and Trachenberg did it on Instagram - neither are on Twitter. Amber Bensen and Charisma posted it on Twitter.
Gellar and Trachenberg's Instagram posts:
"While I am proud to have my name associated with Buffy Summers, I don’t want to be forever associated with the name Joss Whedon. I am more focused on raising my family and surviving a pandemic currently, so I will not be making any further statements at this time. but I stand with all survivors of abuse and am proud of them for speaking out." [Note Gellar had stopped talking to Whedon after Buffy ended, and did not do a guest appearance on Angel S5. She also has distanced herself from him over the years.]
Michelle Trachtenberg, who played Buffy's younger sister, Dawn Summers, from 2000-03, responded to Gellar's post with her own accusation against Whedon, writing, "Thank you
sarahmgellar for saying this. I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman....To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior....very. Not. Appropriate." [ ETA: MT updated her Instagram response to state as follows: "So now. People know. What Joss. Did. The last. Comment I will make on this was a rule. Saying. He's not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again." ]Charisma's on Twitter - which sheds more light on the pregnancy bit than we knew. I'd been told a story about it long before - this, by Dochawk on the ATPOBTVS Board. Dochawk's best friend was an Assistant Producer on Angel to David Greenwalt - so he basically knew everything that was going to happen on Buffy and Angel. Anyhow, Doc told me in December of 2002 that Cordelia was going to be the Big Bad, but then someone else would come in, and be the true big bad and take over. He gave details. Every single one happened on the show - so I VERY spoiled for Angel S4. Annoyingly so. He also told me that Whedon had intended on Cordy becoming the Big Bad and Connor killing her at the end of the season. Apparently, Fox and WB had issues with both Charisma and Greenwalt's behavior on set, and wanted Joss to get rid of them or play the bad guy. Joss was busy with Firefly and Buffy, at the time, and really didn't care that much about Angel in S3. This was in S3 that they made the request. But shortly after that - Greenwalt left to take another job, and Whedon wrote a great story (according to Tim Minear) where Cordy would be the big bad - when whoops she got pregnant over the summer. Minear stated that it screwed up Joss's entire story. And he was pissed. They had to rewrite all of it. Because you can't really have the Big Bad Pregnant Lady. (She was going to be fired either way. But ironically - getting Pregnant may have saved her character, even if it put the actress through a living hell - because Whedon punished her for it.)
Go HERE for Carpenter's lengthy statement on Twitter.
And Amber Benson (Tara) who supports it and retweeted Charisma's with this : Buffy was a toxic environment and it starts at the top.
allcharismais speaking truth and I support her 100%. There was a lot of damage done during that time and many of us are still processing it twenty plus years later. #IStandWithRayFisher #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter - Amber Benson
amber_benson[Which explains why Benson refused to return to Buffy and hasn't worked with Whedon again. Nor have the others that came forward.]
And.. Wonder Woman Star Gail Gadot states she did not have the best experience with Whedon.
This is all on top of...Ray Fishers accusations about Whedon's behavior on the set of The Justice League reshoot. (Note HBO MAX is due to release the Zack Snyder cut on Justice League sometime this month.)
Ray Fisher accuses Joss Whedon of inappropriate behavior on the set of Justice League which lead to an investigation at Warner [Note Fisher's accusations came out in July, right after this, Whedon dropped out of San Diego Comic Con - he was scheduled for Q&A with Whedon. Also Whedon was supposed to be the new show-runner for DC, but they changed their mind after Justice League.]
Kai Cole comes forward with Whedon is a Hypocrite Preaching Feminist Ideals
And... The Cut - Joss Whedon's Controveries and Alleged Bad Behavior - A Guide AND Screen Rant - Whedon's abuse misconduct allegations and accusations explained.
And...sigh, I know from various Q&A'swith both the Buffy and Angel casts, along with remarks made by Whedon himself, that Whedon allowed and thought it was hilarious that David Boreanze wandered around the set flashing female cast and crew members with his penis. He didn't wear pants. He also really only did it with the women. (Marsters was shocked when Dusku and Benz were discussing it with laughter during a Q&A.)
Once again...that ever-troubling quandry, can we look past the personal actions of the writer/creator and still enjoy his/her/their art? I believe so, particularly in television - since it's collaborative and more than one voice was involved. It can be more difficult in other art forms of course. Also people are more than one thing - so an abusive person can create beautiful art - see Orson Scott Card, George RR Martin, Denis Quaid, Bruce Willis, TS Eliot , F Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Virgina Woolf, JK Rowling, Ronald Dahl, Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Owen Tarrantino, Mel Gibson, etc.. Still it is troubling. Can we love the art, without supporting actions we despise?
I can't say any of this surprises me, as you know from reading this journal, I've known about most of this for quite some time now and struggled over the years - because it brings up a troubling dilemma.
Can you continue to love the works of an artist - who is proven to be abusive?
I keep reminding myself that people are more than one thing. And Whedon may well have been attempting to examine his own abusive impulses through his work. I certainly saw that long before anything came to light. Also it occurs to me that Whedon didn't create his shows alone, there were many people involved. But it is troubling. All you have to do is watch Q&A's with Marsters, Carpenter, Benz, Dusku, Brendan, Benson, Emma, et all from around 2003 onwards. Even before that. It's there in the subtext.
It's not like we didn't see it - we did, as far back as 2002, we saw it. We discussed it. And we struggled with it.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently with my manager - this was yesterday, actually. We were talking about an attorney who we both liked, and who liked us. My manager is Persian, and a person of color. She hails from the Middle East. And has a difficult to pronounce name. She is also the wife of a cop, and has a black son and daughter. Every workplace I've been in since moving to NYC has been diverse racially. That's one of the reasons I adore NYC.
Me: I liked Mr. C (a lawyer) until Lando told me that he said " I won't work with that (N word)."
Manager: Yes, but there may be more to this story? I mean Mr. C was from a certain era and people used that word back then. It wasn't a big deal. I know my parents did, and I know others have. And even now the language is constantly changing - I found out today that the word tomboy is all wrong and there's another word for it that I can't even remember that my daughter told me - that shocked me.
Me: True. And we both know that Lando was hardly politically correct. (He wasn't.)
Manager: Exactly. He was far from it.
Me: And he wasn't exactly easy to work with - it could have been about something other than race.
Manager: Yes, I don't think Mr. C was necessarily racist.
ME: I keep telling myself that people are more than one thing. It's not so clear cut. And you can be an asshole regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc.
New York and social media have certainly proved that to me. Asshole, sometimes I think, is a human default setting.
I'm not excusing his behavior, far from it. But, I think we need to demonize the behavior not the man. And I saw that in his works - which also were troubling and more than one thing, filled with shades of grey - in which he appeared to be struggling to deal with his own demons and demonic urges. As I've said before and will say again, there's a lot of Angelus and Spike in Joss Whedon - and I think through those two characters he often examined his own demons.
As to the abusive behavior - a lot of this is due to the industry. The Entertainment industry across the board is not a safe or kind industry to work in. The Railroad, believe it or not, is kinder. Actually it's the kindest one that I've worked in - possibly because it is public and government? Don't know. Publishing was by far the worst - do not work in publishing. I was interviewed by a woman writing a book on serial bullying, and she informed me that of all the people she'd interviewed in her book that had been harassed and bullied in the work place - about 85% were in the publishing industry. And I remember a recruiter telling me once that I did not want to work for NBC - because their interview process was putting you in the center of the room, shining a spotlight on you, and yelling at you.
When I worked at the video game developer - my boss informed me that CBS, NBC, Fox, and ABC were all just as bad. Horrible environments to work in.
Do not work in television.
And I just watched a roundtable with Christopher Plummer, Charlize Therone, Viola Davis, George Clooney and Tilda Swinton - and they also adressed the problem - of how producers and directors often look at women as little more than sex objects. And being an older, not necessarily thin, black woman in this industry was painful.
Look at every series you love - and look deep, can you honestly say there's no misogyny, racism, or issues there? Or with the creators? Shondra Rhimes has a horrible reputation, and she's a woman. And Bryan Singer. And my brother told me stories about people out in LA such as Tim Burton, Oliver Stone, Stephen Spielberg not to mention what it was like working on Love Crimes, that made me rethink a career as a screenwriter or in film. After interviewing a few people and working with a media rep for the music industry, I ran as far away as I could get from that industry. It's an industry that attracts narcissistic assholes and allows and promotes bad behavior.
It shouldn't be shocking that the Me#Too Movement and Times Up came out of that industry. Hitchcock was a creep who sexually harassed and bullied his female actors. Kubrick was impossible to work with. Malick abused his actors. Oliver Stone peed on his sets. Burton overworked his staff.
When bad behavior is promoted or allowed folks will do it. David Boreanze wandered about pantless on sets. Pulled practical jokes. Flashed his penis. And got into trouble for sexual harrassment on the set of Bones - he's still doing well. The star of Bull sexually harassed Eliza Dusku and that show is still on the air. Is it his fault or the environment that allows it or both?
I don't know the answers to any of the questions I've posed. If I did, I wouldn't feel the need to write about it in my journal. It bothers me. I remember Jodi Foster and Whoopie Goldberg defending Mel Gibson - who came across an an anti-semitic racist misogynist. But do we know? We don't.
That's the problem with the information age - we have all this information at our fingertips, but we don't really know what to do with it, what is true, or how to react. And when we do believe the truth - then what?
Do we stop reading or loving Harry Potter because JK Rowlings is an transphobe and sexist? Or do we stop watching and adoring Buffy, Firefly, Angel or Dollhouse or even The Avengers and Avengers Age of Ultron because Whedon has exhibited abusive and asshole behavior on set and caused a toxic work environment?
I don't think so. I hope not. I think we need to see the whole person, not just the actions. It's kind of like how we might look at a favorite fictional character? Spike was horrific in some ways, but not in others, should I feel wrong for liking the character - as long as I condemned the actions I despised? It's a question the writers ask.
Do we hate our children because of what they do? Do we hate each other because of what we do? Or just the actions?
I've been asking myself this question a lot lately. Every time I see a maskless wonder - and I saw many today. Or the lawyer yells at me over Teams. Or I see Trump or his cronies or watch in tears as my nation's capital is raided. Or when George Floyd is killed. So much of 2020, the last few years really, I've felt myself consumed with rage. Kill them. I'd think.
Two shots to the head, two to the heart - dead. No such thing as a good Trump Supporter. No such thing as a Good Republican. And then, I'd take a huge step back and remind myself of the kindness I'd received from those who I personally know that are both. And I'd remind myself of my New Year's resolution two years running now - be kind no matter what. The kind part isn't the hard part - what's hard, insanely so, you've no idea or maybe you do? The hard part is "no matter what".
Perhaps it is just me - but people have been showing an increasing amount of asshole behavior of late. I want to smack them.
Do we condemn the people or the asshole behavior? And does the asshole behavior cancel out the good, or is it the opposite?
And finally back to my initial question - do we condemn the art and the works of a creator, whose other behavior and/or beliefs we find troubling or offensive? (In Whedon, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Woody Allen's case - it's the behavior not the ideology, in Orson Scott Card, JK Rowling, and TS Eliot it was the ideology and beliefs.) Or, as a friend once told me, do we still enjoy them because they give us insight to another point of view or show us something else - helping us to see that people are more than one thing, and what we can see in a work of art is often not what we see in the artist?
It's probably worth stating - and I almost forgot - there are works that are troubling in of themselves, while the creator isn't necessarily. American Psycho, Atlas Shrugged, Gone with the Wind, Me Before You, Fifty Shades of Grey, all come to mind. There others as well. Should they be expunged? I don't think so. Or maybe it just depends? It is important, I think, to look at them all with a critical eye.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-12 12:16 am (UTC)Buffy, Willow, Fred/Illyria, Dawn, Faith, River, Echo, etc. And if you have seen the Buffy movie? God. Also, it's true in Cabin in the Woods, Agents of Shield, and to a degree the Avengers. There's a definite pattern.
He famously didn't want to hire Amber Benson because he thought she was not thin enough - and Marti Noxon loved Amber and talked him into hiring her. (He said in a commentary with Seth Green that she was the wrong body type and he didn't see how she would be appealing...but Marti insisted.) I think it was commentary or maybe an interview. I remember it - because it bothered me at the time.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-12 02:24 am (UTC)Joss Whedon had almost nothing to do with Agents of SHIELD, I believe. His brother and his sister-in-law Maurissa Tancharoen worked together on it. My impression was that they used the Joss's fame to help get things rolling, but Jed and Maurissa did basically all the work.
(But take that with a grain of salt. I nearly always end up binge-watching AoS when the seasons finally show up on Netflix, so that means missing a lot of the news related to the show.)
no subject
Date: 2021-02-12 03:49 am (UTC)I haven't watched Agents - but I know some of the back story. Television gossip amuses me. I get an odd schadenfreud from it - oh, thank god, I'm not doing that for a living. It's kind of similar, I guess, to why some people watch reality television?
It's easier to binge watch some shows than watch live, I think. I may go find AoS on Netflix and binge watch seasons there. Also considering re-watch Vamp Diaries. I want fluff, dang-it.