Whedon's Fall Begins and Ends with Justice League: A Time Line

[shadowkat]

I'm starting to rethink the Whedon thing.

There's some interesting tid-bits that I didn't realize on Feb 10 when CC posted her tweet to social media. Nor did I make the connection on November 22, 2017 when Kai Cole's allegations came out.

Here's the Time Line.

* June 2016: After Avengers Age of Ultron fares poorly - Whedon Exits Marvel in June 2016

* March 22, 2017-Whedon to Direct Batgirl on March 22, 2017

* May 22, 2017: On May 22, 2017 - it's announced that Zack Snyder had to depart Justice League

* June 17, 2017 - Whedon's Wonder Woman Script is Leaked on June 17, 2017 (Zack Snyder and Patty Jenkins release Zack's scripted Wonder Woman was released on June 2, 2017.)

November 13, 2017 - Joss Whedon's reshoot of Justice League was released. Everyone at the comic con praises Whedon's efforts. (But behind the scenes - it's not so rosy. And the cast hates the film, so too do Christopher Nolan and Snyder's wife and producing partner. )

November 22, 2017 On November 22, 2017 - Kai Cole comes out with her allegations about Whedon.

January 2018 Justice League tanks at the box office and is overtaken by Infinity War in 2018.

On June 2018 Whedon Exits Batgirl

Ray Fisher supports Zack Snyder's Justice League Charity on December 2, 2019

Sept 5, 2019 Zack Snyder's Fans Bring Release the Snyder Cut to the San Diego Comic Con

On May 20, 2020 Zack Snyder's 20 Million Plus Justice League Cut Plans Revealed

June 10, 2020 June 10th Fisher retracted his statements at comic con in 2017, stating Whedon was in fact abusive.

July 1, 2020 While Whedon is filming HBO Max's The Nevers in England, and planning on doing a promotional Zoom Q&A at comic con in July - and simultaneously Zack Snyder, Deborah Snyder and company, with his friend Chris Nolan backing him, are trying to get Snyder's version of Justice League funded and put on HBO Max - Ray Fisher's Allegations Against Whedon on July 1. Whedon leaves the Q&A on Zoom.

July 20, 2020 July 22, 2020 Ray Fisher Reveals Change He Requested from Zack Snyder for Justice League and is revealed as one of the biggest and most fervent supporters of the Snyder Cut

September 23, 2020 Zack Snyder Filming New Justice League Scenes for the Snyder Cut in October

October 22, 2020 - HBO Max releases information Zack Snyder's Justice League

October 29, 2020 Ray Fisher Gets Specific With Allegations of Racism during Whedon's Re-shoot of Justice League on October 29, 2020

Joss Whedon denies Ray Fisher's Claims that he altered a Justice League Member's skin tone

November 25, 2020 The Real Reason Joss Whedon Leaves the Nevers on November 25, 2020 (He also left Twitter completely.)

December 11, 202 . December 11, 2020 - Justice League Investigation Concludes with Remedial Action Following Ray Fisher Claims

January 1, 2021 Ray Fisher is removed from the Flash...latest in Justice League Allegations - Jan 1, 2021

January 2, 2021 Ray Fisher Supports Restore the Snydervers on January 2, 2021

January 14, 2021 Ray Fisher Slams Studio Regarding Removal From the Flash Amid Justice League Allegations

February 10, 2021 Charisma Carpenter Supports Ray Fishers Allegations Against Whedon in I Stand with Ray Fisher Post

February 11, 2021 Buffy Alums Support Charisma Carpenters Allegations Against Whedon

February 14, 2021 Snyder Cut Trailer Is Dropped

February 15 Julie Benze and more Buffy and Angel Alums stand with Charisma on Whedon Allegations

February 16 David Boreanze and James Marsters show support

February 23, 2021 The True History of Zack Snyder's Justice League Cut

And finally..

The True Story of the Justice League Snyder Cut - Revealing how Whedon gutted nice guy Zack Snyder's film, and Snyder fought to get his version released for no pay, proceeds going to a charity in his adoptive daughter's name.

A couple of interesting takeaways: Ray Fisher had a bigger and more prominent role in Zack Snyder's film, Whedon cut out most of his part. Fisher has been a proponent of Snyder's version being released since roughly 2019, if not prior. Director Christopher Nolan despised Whedon's version and told his friend Zack Snyder never to see it.

Whedon for his part was given an impossible assignment - while working on Batgirl - WB told him to fix Snyder's film and deliver them a movie like The Avengers. He had less than six months to do it, and the movie shouldn't be much more than two and half hours if that in length. The individual who pushed for this - is now fired from WB for allegations of sexual harassment and couldn't be reached for comment. To do this - he'd have shave Snyder's film which was really two films, rewrite the script and re-shot all within four to five months, keeping to the release date of November 2017.

Whedon from all reports doesn't handle this type of stress well. And gets easily frustrated with actors. In addition he was diagnosed around 2018 with ADHD ( according to his Twitter account.)

The cast did not welcome him and fought him tooth and nail. Cavill was busy filming Mission Impossible at the same time. They had already shot the movie and loved Snyder's version. While the cast loved Zack Snyder, and Momoa, Gail Gadot and Fisher all praised Snyder for discovering them and saving their careers.

The allegations by the Buffy and Angel alums are vague, with the exception of Charisma's. Also over 20 years old. Kai Cole's allegations are also vague and to an extent old and weirdly timed.

The allegations by Fisher are also vague - and over four years old.

And..and..Zack Snyder's Cut of Justice League - does not happen in this industry. Having another filmmaker or writer take over a film? That happens all the time. That's kind of the nature of the business. What doesn't happen is an expensive movie ($300 Million) is released, tanks, and the studio pays $70 more million to undo everything the last guy did. WB payed $70 million for Snyder to undo Whedon's cut to his film, and restore his original version. Which is a 190 degree change from Whedon's - Snyder used film and square screen for Imax, Whedon used Digital and 3D stock, in rectangle. That's a lot of money. And you have to get people interested somehow - with a March 18 release date.

So...this begs the question, why did it all come out now? And more to the point, why not speak about it before now?

I'll let you all draw your own conclusions.

Comments

[mefisto]

The allegations by the Buffy and Angel alums are vague, with the exception of Charisma's.

I'd modify this to add MT's statement about not being in the same room.

The other interesting thing to me is that nobody has confirmed Charisma's specific allegations, even when they offer generalized support. It's entirely possible, of course, that her specified interactions with Joss were limited to the 2 of them. Still, given how gossip works in Hollywood, I'd expect someone else to chime in (Fury, say, or Minear).

[shadowkat]

MT's is the one that shocked everyone, and trust me, was highly questioned by fans on her Instagram account. We got as much as we did from her - because she was responding to those questions. (I was trying to defend her at one point - I found their attacks appalling.)

Hers also syncs with Kai Cole's...but it's hard to know. Also that's a common rule on sets regarding minor teen girls. But as I argued to a fan - "she said "AGAIN" " - which means she'd been in a room alone with him and something bad happened. We don't know what. (Hollywood is not know for being...well...suffice it to say it has a rep for being skeevy for a reason.) He might have just yelled at her? God knows.

The other interesting thing to me is that nobody has confirmed Charisma's specific allegations, even when they offer generalized support. It's entirely possible, of course, that her specified interactions with Joss were limited to the 2 of them. Still, given how gossip works in Hollywood, I'd expect someone else to chime in (Fury, say, or Minear).

Yep the only ones who had specifics weren't on set with her - and on Buffy. Those who were on set - didn't confirm it.

Carpenter situation was complicated. She was considered problematic - and possibly having an affair with David Greenwalt, who took her over there - and since Gellar didn't get along with her, Whedon agreed. Charisma was maybe five or six years younger than Greenwalt - she's about 50 now, and was 26 when Buffy started.

What I found odd - is I know that the WB wanted Whedon to fire Charisma and Greenwalt at the end of S3 Angel. And from all reports - had just cause. The two were causing lots of delays, and difficult to work with. I know Greenwalt left with no hard feelings - and was responsible for everything that went on on Angel for those first three years - he was the show runner. But why not fire Charisma at the end of S3 like the WB wanted? Whedon hated her character arc - he pretty much said that in various interviews - he didn't see Cordy of all people going to Heaven and becoming a higher being, and he disliked Greenwalt's mythos - Greenwalt was Jewish and religious, Whedon's really not. So he felt he had to undo that arc and make her the Big Bad - and kill her off (per Tim Minear and David Fury on the fan boards and in interviews at the time - so they've already talked about it), but she got pregnant and ruined Whedon's entire story arc. Minear joked : "Whedon created this amazing story with Cordy as the big bad, and Angel having to kill her but she got pregnant over the summer and ruined it. We couldn't very well have the Big Bad Pregnant Lady". So apparently Whedon punished her for making him rewrite it? SMH

It seems really stupid, pointless, cruel, nasty and painful. Seriously, having a child is more important than a horror cult television show. Angel wasn't that good, no show is. I have a mercurial boss - but even he knows that, he puts people first. Whedon apparently put his art first, and that's kind of hard to get past. And it's what has come back to bite him. I hope he learns from it. Kubrick never did.

I'm kind of glad that mistake came back to bite Whedon in the ass. The idiot put a dumb television series above a human being having a baby. WTF.

[mefisto]

MT's is the one that shocked everyone

It sure shocked me. One of my daughters knows MT and worked with her. I can't imagine how or why anyone would scream at her (and that's the optimistic scenario).

I know that the WB wanted Whedon to fire Charisma and Greenwalt at the end of S3 Angel. And from all reports - had just cause.

I didn't like her storyline even in S3, so they should have bit the bullet at the end of that season. Her arc in S4 was so awful that I stopped watching the show and even today have never seen all of S4 (I did watch S5).

[shadowkat]

One of my daughters knows MT and worked with her. I can't imagine how or why anyone would scream at her (and that's the optimistic scenario).

Oh? They are in the business? Then yeah, you'd know better than I would. I think it was MT and Amber's posts that shocked Head. Marsters held off until they came forward - and I honestly think they gave creedence to CC. Because otherwise people may have been more skeptical of CC's. What I don't know is how coordinated this was - I doubt it. I honestly think it surprised CC and Ray Fisher, that MT came out with what she did. CC probably knew that Marsters, Amber, Nick, DB, J August, Benze and Kramer would support her - because they interact at cons and have done so recently. But Gellar, Noxon, Molina, and MT probably surprised her.

I didn't like her storyline even in S3, so they should have bit the bullet at the end of that season. Her arc in S4 was so awful that I stopped watching the show and even today have never seen all of S4 (I did watch S5).

I agree. Whedon should have fired her at the end of S3. I watched all of S4 - I was completely spoiled - since I had dinner in NYC with Dochawk once and he told me and Anom all of it, including the entire story arc, and why WB wanted to get rid of CC and Greenwalt.

But why didn't he just fire her at the end of S3 - Greenwalt kind of wrote her out for him. I think his hubris or ego got the better of him. That's always been my problem with Whedon - he has a huge ego. At the end of the day - the guy is a television and film writer - that's it. But fandom can be toxic to a writer or artist.

[mefisto]

Related business: fashion stuff. She's not doing that any more and hasn't seen MT in years but they interacted regularly at the time and my daughter always told me what a sweetheart MT was.

I think it was MT and Amber's posts that shocked Head.

Amber's didn't entirely shock me. She made some comments about CWDP and her refusal of that role that essentially accused Whedon of lying. I didn't know there was (apparently) more than that, though.

[shadowkat]

I wasn't shocked by Amber either. (I think ASH might have been though - they were close.) But if you have read any of the interviews, interacted in the fandom, or followed the Q&A's posted from cons on youtube (which are all still available by the way) - you'll figure out that there is no love lost between Amber, Gellar, Emma Caulfield, Marsters, Brendan and Charisma regarding Whedon. Danny Strong and Busch knew about Amber - Amber was dating Busch at that time, and they are close. I was admittedly surprised Lenk came out in support. Noxon also surprised me, because she's friends with Whedon.

[mefisto]

Noxon was probably the second most surprising to me (after MT). I did know that JW and SMG didn't get along, but some of the others are new to me.

[shadowkat]

MT and Noxon were the shockers - and I honestly think nailed the lid on the coffin of Whedon's career. The others, everyone kind of already knew about - and no one was taking Fisher seriously.