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shadowkatWhen comparing films or anything really - it's important to pick items that are related to each other and similar in medium. For example? I wouldn't compare the Buffy movie or Buffy comics to the Buffy television series - they are three different mediums, you kind of have to take that into account. Same with say Justice League - you don't compare the films to the comics - different mediums, different requirements. Nor do I compare Snyder's films to say the Marvel films - two different verses, different characters - be like comparing Apples to Tomatoes. Nor would I compare Justice League to the Avengers - again Apples to Tomatoes.
In regards to Justice League - and why it offers film geeks a great opportunity to see what works and what doesn't - is we are comparing two different cuts on the same film. Add to that, we have a film that the studio involved chose to re-shoot/rewrite and re-score with a new collaborative team - while essentially keeping footage, story, and writing from that team. It would be like your beta being hired to step in and rewrite your fanfic and adding stuff to it without your approval, then publishing it with your name on it along side theirs. Or someone being hired by your agent and publisher to re-write your novel, and publishing it under your name and theirs, without your approval - which happens all the time with "work for hire" gigs, particularly films. [Actually it has happened with a few novels as well, and more than one film and television series.]
Director's Cuts also provide you with the ability to compare to original cuts of a film, see what the studio got rid of, and what the artist's original vision was - and understand how the business of film affects the final product for good or ill. Note - not all director's cuts add to the original or are that different. Nor are all that great. Blade Runner - is an example of one where the Director's cut added something to the movie, although it remains controversial as to whether that was an improvement or detriment. While Superman II (Richard Donner) is an example of a cut that added nothing to the film.
In addition to the above? It's important to pick films and subject matter that you enjoy. For example? Magnificent Ambersons by Orson Wells, has an original that varied greatly from the Director's cut of the film. But I don't like the film. I have no interest in it.
Justice League works for me - because I've seen both films, I'm familiar with the work of both directors, and the source material (for the most part). Also I know the characters fairly well or well enough. I've seen at least five to ten films or works by both. Pretty much everything except for about two or three items.
Knowing the filmmakers work - makes this kind of analysis more interesting, in that if you were to ask me - say a week or so ago, which filmmaker was better at dialogue and humor - I'd say Whedon. I'd also say Whedon was better at characterization and emotional character moments. Both, aren't the best at plotting. And I'd have said Whedon was better at layers, metaphor, and narrative. Snyder - I'd have said was better at cinematography, action scenes, plot (not by much) and that's about it.
Folks? I've changed my mind. In respect to Justice League? Snyder actually is better at dialogue, humor, characterization, emotional character moments, action, story, and cinematography. I was surprised by this, since I generally prefer Whedon's films and works to Snyder's. Snyder tends to be dark, somewhat Randian in tone, and not memorable in the dialogue department. He's still not exactly stellar in the dialogue department - but he is so much better here than Whedon. Also, weirdly, I sensed more of a Randian/conservative theme coming from Whedon's group than from Snyder's.
That's why I feel the need to analyze why - because I was surprised. I don't get surprised by films that often. Also the comparison provides some insight as to what works and what doesn't and why. In particular dialogue - which is a lot harder to write well than people realize. In addition - dialogue needs to accomplish several things: 1) Be true to the character and/or reveal character, 2) Provide information, and 3) Further the plot.
How you do it - will determine how your reader or viewer responds to your characters and story. But it's even harder, or at least I think it is, for characters you've not created and in particular those that your audience may be as familiar if not more familiar with than you are. (I think most fanfic writers would appreciate that. It's why I don't like writing fanfic, I get self-conscious. For me, when I read or watch something utilizing characters I've fallen in love with - I get thrust out of the story when the characters say something out of character or do something out of character.)
Justice League Film Comparison Regarding Use of Dialogue or Why I'm Glad I'm Not a Screenwriter
There's an interesting article about the three original scripts associated with Justice League - that was published in 2019.
1. Snyder said he worked with Chris Terrio to complete the Justice League script prior to the release of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and the film's divisive reception forced them to reconsider their approach. Snyder referred to this script as "the really scary version," and said he got nervous after Batman v Superman and Warner Bros. also told him many elements from the original script had to be changed. Snyder said "the original Justice League script, we didn't even shoot."
2. Zack Snyder's Revised script with Chris Terrio aka the Snydercut, which is the script in the Snydercut, with a few revisions. It's also the script that was re-written by Joss Whedon et company. When people talk about the Snyder Cut, this is what they're talking about. Zack Snyder storyboarded and shot 100% of this version of the movie and was well into post-production before leaving the movie. The Knightmare timeline focus was still present and Darkseid was meant to play a major role in the background, with his lieutenant Steppenwolf serving as the chief antagonist.
This version contained more backstory for the new characters, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman, including more of their side characters like Iris West, Victor Stone's mom, Vulko, and more. Zack Snyder said Cyborg was the "heart" of the movie, and storyboards and leaked scenes suggest Cyborg could have gotten an origin scene reminiscent of Doctor Manhattan's origin scene in Watchmen.
3. Joss Whedon Reboot: This is the version that was released in theaters. It's based around Snyder and Terrio's rewritten script, but had significant alterations by a team of writers including Geoff Johns, Joss Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Seth Grahame-Smith, and Andrea Berloff. Ultimately, Joss Whedon's alterations made the biggest impact and earned him the director role for reshoots after Snyder left. He's credited as a writer on the movie, which, per WGA standards, means he was deemed to have had a 33% influence (not necessarily page or word count) on the final product.
The Snyder Cut is presumed to have been around three and a half hours long, but ex-Warner Bros. Chairman and CEO Kevin Tsujihara placed a 2-hour runtime mandate on the final cut. With an hour and a half of Snyder content cut and some reshoots and additions by Whedon, that means at least two to two and a half hours of Snyder's movie was left out of the final product.
What happened? Joss Whedon was hired to "help" punch up the script of Justice League. And on the 2017 film, Whedon's only credit is "script" which he allegedly co-wrote with Chris Terrio. It's worth noting, before we go any further that he did not write the script by himself, and Terrio never worked directly with him. He had help with the script from Geoff Johns (a writer of the Justice League and Teen Titans comics) and Jon Berg. Per the article above Whedon's script was based around Snyder and Terrio's rewritten script, but had significant alterations by a team of writers including Geoff Johns, Joss Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Seth Grahame-Smith, and Andrea Berloff. They also largely edited and re-wrote Chris Terrio and Zack Snyder's original script.
In addition, Whedon is known for his script-doctoring skills and got his start fixing other people's scripts. He did that even as a show-runner on various television series. But Whedon also is a comedy writer - who came from situation comedy writing - specifically Roseanne, which is know for it's insult humor and slapstick. Also Buffy often had similar low brow and slangy, quips. Snyder - or so it was claimed, was dour with his script and humorless. They wanted to "humanize" and "lighten it up".
Note - there is only one screenwriter credit on the Snyder version - Chris Terrio does the script, Snyder directs. On the Whedon version - there's Whedon and Terrio. We also know from the article above on Whedon's Reboot, Johns, and various others who had a hand in the script - with Whedon directing and shooting the new footage. I point this out - because there's an old adage amongst film geeks and screenwriters - the more writers involved with the script - the worse the film will be. Same with the old adage about too many chefs in a kitchen? There's a reason a team of writers rarely if ever gets an Oscar or is nominated for any film.
Luckily for comparison purposes there are scenes that only the dialogue was changed. Otherwise this would be harder. (Also I'm referencing youtube and this Site for the Justice League 2017 script. My memory isn't perfect or word for word. Along with other online comparisons, and the movies on HBO Max.)
1. Diana's Dialogue with A Terrorist
In the 2017 film, Diana's action sequence and interaction with the terrorists is cut short, and as a result she doesn't appear nearly as deadly or dangerous. She also doesn't kill anyone. In Snyder's version, Diana has a longer action sequence and kills all the terrorists brutally. Also goes out of her way to save the kids.
The Terrorists are taking over a Capital Building in London, she comes in and fights them, after they hold the police at a standstill and are seconds from blowing up the building and the school group held as hostages inside.
The dialogue in both sequences is pretty much the same - except for the very end.
Go here for the sequence in the 2017 film
Justice League 2020 Dialogue:
The change is precipitated by the writing team on the reboot, lead by Whedon and Johns wanting to redirect the scene towards "the mother boxes" and superheros. But it's the terrorist doesn't know about the mother boxes or the larger picture. So, "A believer" doesn't make sense. If it's in relation to female empowerment? It doesn't work either - since there's no follow-through.
After the terrorist is killed, Diana turns to the school children to see if they are alright.
See subtle change makes all the difference. The addition of this dialogue re-emphasizes Snyder's intent behind "believe it" - also the terrorists are all male, and the school troop is all women and young girls. Wonder Woman kills all the male terrorists, and brutally, saving the women and young girls they were going to slaughter. This echoes a scene with her Amazonian sisters earlier in the film. And the idea of sisterhood. Diana's focus in Snyder's vision is on the loss of her Amazonian family, not Trevor. While the Whedon cut or vision shows her focus is less on her Amazonian family. Less on her own empowerment. And the Whedon version oddly, undercuts her at various turns.
The question is why did Whedon and his fellow writers choose to go in the direction that they did? I don't know. But it seems counter to what was expected. I'd have expected it more from Snyder - yet Snyder empowers Diana and the girls - and has a strong them of female empowerment in his version. And Diana isn't objectified in his version at all.
Go here for the sequence in the 2020 film analysis
If you check out the side by side comparison above - you will also notice all the other changes. The Wonder Woman sequence is far more powerful in Snyder's than the Whedon/Johns et al version. It's darker, more realistic, and as a result packs more of the punch. While Whedon's version feels a bit like watching an episode of Marvel Agents of Shield (no offense intended to MoA, but it's more television or Marvel level of action, and note less time for Wonder Woman, while Batman gets longer on the roof fighting his robber in a scene immediately before this one in Whedon's Reboot.)
2. Bruce Recruits Barry
Justice League 2017 Batman recruits the Flash clip
[Better yet - here's a direct side by side comparison of Batman recruits Barry Allen - where you can see the differences in the dialogue and shots. ]
The dialogue in this scene is about the same as Snyder's with one key difference, the cringe-inducing brunch monologue that Barry riffs on right after he says the line "I need friends".
Justice League 2020
What's baffling is why they added that brunch speech? It's not funny - it's kind of grating actually. And feels a little off. Also the film was allegedly three and a half hours too long originally, so they had to cut stuff. Which begs the question, why add a long rambling speech? Does it get across the character better? I don't think it does. Does it further the plot? No. And it's actually kind of funnier without the long speech.
My guess is they felt it would work better with the audience, make Allen more appealing to their target age group? Or provide a character insight in short blurb?
Snyder - adds a longer sequence, where Barry is interviewing for a dog walking job, mets Iris, then as she's driving away - he races to save her from a collision with a truck. It is an apt demonstration of his powers, his nerdiness, and his inability to deal with Iris.
The addition in the Whedon version is Barry goofily drawing glasses and a smiley face on the impatient man in line behind him at the State Prison, where he goes to see his father. The scene isn't funny, and doesn't provide much information on Barry. It is admittedly shorter but not by much.
Everything else in the Allen's introduction is more or less the same.
What I found fascinating and surprising is that Snyder's version focuses on female empowerment, while Whedon's focuses on Nerdy Socially Awkward Boy empowerment often at the detriment of women. And it's the nerdy boy's hero-worship of the White Male Superhero. Women and Minorities in Whedon's version are either pushed into the side-kick category or objectified. The shifts in the dialogue get this across. While Diana's scene is truncated, the Flash's isn't - if anything they added dialogue to it.
They do however remove the first introduction to the Flash, and replace it with a joke, that kind of falls flat. Jokes require build up and continuity to work well. Here it feels off, and unnecessary. The Flash isn't annoying or grating in Snyder's version, he is in Whedon's. He comes across as a bit of a jerk in Whedon's version - and it's hard, as a result, to care about him, while in Snyder's you do care about him - and he isn't a jerk at all. i would have expected the opposite.
3. Bruce Attempts to Recruit Aquaman
Aquaman's introduction much like the Flash's is similar between the two films. Very little is changed. Whedon uses pretty much all of Snyder's footage, with just a few small alterations. (No villagers singing, and Aquaman doesn't just disappear into the water, he kind of zooms off in Whedon's take.] But other than that? The action is the same. What is different is the dialogue. And in places it is merely subtly different - demonstrating how a bad beta or editor can damage a scene with just a word or two. Word choice is vital here.
[As an aside - when I first moved to NYC, I interviewed for a copy-edit job but got in trouble for trying to "rewrite" the copy. Later I've run across a variety of editors, and the best find a way to rework a script or a story to make it stronger and find the characters in the story, and further the plot. Here - it appears the direction for the rewrite was to emphasize the plot at the detriment of the characters, and story. The mother box mystery was emphasized or the hunt for the McGuffin - which isn't always the best decision. ]
2017 Version - Joss Whedon Reboot
-
2020 Version:
What is fascinating about this scene along with the other two - is how each of the characters are changed, and not in a good way via Whedon et company's alterations to the script. Arthur comes across as kind of greedy and almost grating in Whedon's take. And Bruce's exasperation shows more, as opposed to a weathered patience. Bruce also knows more than he should - he knows about Atlantis, he knows more about the boxes, and he gives out more information than he normally would.
The humor implanted in the scene - doesn't work with the characters. It's jarring. I can't see Affleck's Bruce Wayne stating "I hear you talk to fish", Michael Keaton's - yes, or Tim Burton's version of the character, but not this iteration. It's off. Also Curry's role as interpreter is underlined more, and villagers are more part of the scene in Snyder's version.
As far as I can tell they changed the dialogue to make it more humorous and pull the theme and story in another direction. But it's clumsy, and jarring in how it is done.
One more example, I think in regards to dialogue that was changed while the directorial footage is essentially the same. Changing the meaning of the footage - which had originally been shot with different dialogue.
4. Justice League's Fight with Superman
Whedon version only is in underlined text. Snyder text that isn't in Whedon's 2017 film is in BOLD. If the dialogue is in both - it's not underlined or in bold. Only the differences between the two are either underlined or in bold.
Notice how Clark says nothing in the Snyder version, until Lois stops him and takes him away - actually he doesn't say anything until he and Lois land at his farm in Smallville. He takes her to the same place in both versions.
Also in the Whedon version there are a lot of quips and banter. Arthur says more in the Whedon version, while in the Snyder he says very little - unless necessary. Diana does most of the talking. Bruce also doesn't say very much. Most of the talking is done by Diana, the Flash and Cyborg.
In each of these sections the character is often sacrificed in the dialogue by the Whedon version for jokes, witty banter, or for exposition (explaining the mother boxes), while in the Snyder version the dialogue is focused on further plot and revealing the characters. In the Snyder - funny moments are either situational (Flash being thrust into Arthur - which worked better for humor purposes) or small lines, like Bruce knowing Icelandic and paying Arthur more money than he asked for. Or, in Flash's section the quick exchange - "I need friends", Bruce - "Great". There's hidden irony there - since Bruce doesn't quite have them either.
Rule number 1 with dialogue - it has to be true to the character. And in regards to exposition - it's better to show than tell in film. Info dumps in film work better when we can see them.
I thought it would be better to show the differences in the dialogue above then merely tell you about them. [Whether that worked or not, I don't know. I had to see the film for myself to get it, so it may not have.] Some of the Whedon cut's changes and adjustments are rather baffling. And others, are well, offensive. Most of what he does with Diana is offensive - and in a way that surprised me.
To be fair to Whedon, he's not the sole writer on his version - and he was catering to a lot of people above him, who hired him, and had been nitpicking at the film for quite some time. Yet, here's the thing - being familiar with Whedon's other works - the added jokes, quips, and demeaning content - is boiler-plate Whedon. I've seen this in the Avengers, Buffy, Firefly, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible and Angel, along with in the comics and the portions of the X-men film that he script doctored. He's not doing anything he hasn't done in his other works. He was actually hired to do insert it.
Undercutting a dramatic moment with humor - which is normally something that I enjoy, can work in some situations - but it matters how you do it. In this instance the undercut is at the expense of the characters - and in particular women and minority characters. So, it stood out more here - because it was outside of his own stuff, it wasn't evenly braced against the empowering moments with those characters, and it wasn't softened by the other writers/directors that Whedon had hired. Here he's putting it into someone else's story, and redirecting and re-editing that person's footage. As a result these items, which I recognized as Whedon's style of humor, stand out in stark contrast and not in a good way. That surprised me - because I hadn't noticed how demeaning Whedon's humor can be to minority and women - until I watched and compared the films. When it was gone, the film was actually better, less jarring. And the characters of Wonder Woman, Lois, Cyborg, and Aguaman had more agency and came across as less silly or only there to support Batman and Superman. They had agency, they were leads, and they were more important - in Snyder's version.
There are a few adjustments though that make sense, and make the scene tighter - in say the Aquaman scene with Bruce. But in the Flash scene they add dialogue - which unnecessarily lengthens the scene. Also there's additions of dialogue by Whedon et al in the Superman fights the Justice League sequence that makes no sense, and renders the scene somewhat silly. Not comical - just silly and grating. Superman wouldn't talk yet - he'd just been resurrected. And he doesn't know that Batman orchestrated it. Nor would he necessarily remember the particulars of his fights with Batman in Bvs.S. Snyder is a stickler for these sorts of details, while Whedon doesn't tend to be.
Another thing I noticed about the Whedon cut's use of humor - it often made the film somewhat "campy" or "silly" and in other areas..."crass and cringe-inducing". I'm not sure Whedon respected the material in quite the same way as Snyder did or the characters.
In the Avengers, some of this works, mainly because it fits the characters. But I don't think it works with DC's characters quite as well, and not here.
As previously noted, there's a continuity problem in regards to small details - these characters and the tone of who some of them are - have been previously set up in other films, that have the tonal quality. Clark, Bruce and Diana were previously set up in Man of Steel, Batman vs. Superman, and Wonder Woman. Whedon's Justice League jumped away from that continuity of character, along with other things. Whedon tries to refer to BvS with an exchange between Clark and Bruce in the Justice League fights Superman sequence, but it doesn't quite work - if anything it is jarring, and it threw me out of the story. Clark wouldn't talk at this point. He's never been much of a talker to begin with.
Anyhow, I think dialogue matters in film, and if used poorly or inadequately, it can pull the viewer out of the story or jar them. It's true of other stories as well - fanfic, novels, etc. If your characters don't sound genuine to the reader - the reader is gone.
[ETA: Fixed some typos and changed Whedon's addition to "underlined" text, and Snyder's to "bold" text, since blockquotes automatically turn it into italicized text.]
In regards to Justice League - and why it offers film geeks a great opportunity to see what works and what doesn't - is we are comparing two different cuts on the same film. Add to that, we have a film that the studio involved chose to re-shoot/rewrite and re-score with a new collaborative team - while essentially keeping footage, story, and writing from that team. It would be like your beta being hired to step in and rewrite your fanfic and adding stuff to it without your approval, then publishing it with your name on it along side theirs. Or someone being hired by your agent and publisher to re-write your novel, and publishing it under your name and theirs, without your approval - which happens all the time with "work for hire" gigs, particularly films. [Actually it has happened with a few novels as well, and more than one film and television series.]
Director's Cuts also provide you with the ability to compare to original cuts of a film, see what the studio got rid of, and what the artist's original vision was - and understand how the business of film affects the final product for good or ill. Note - not all director's cuts add to the original or are that different. Nor are all that great. Blade Runner - is an example of one where the Director's cut added something to the movie, although it remains controversial as to whether that was an improvement or detriment. While Superman II (Richard Donner) is an example of a cut that added nothing to the film.
In addition to the above? It's important to pick films and subject matter that you enjoy. For example? Magnificent Ambersons by Orson Wells, has an original that varied greatly from the Director's cut of the film. But I don't like the film. I have no interest in it.
Justice League works for me - because I've seen both films, I'm familiar with the work of both directors, and the source material (for the most part). Also I know the characters fairly well or well enough. I've seen at least five to ten films or works by both. Pretty much everything except for about two or three items.
Knowing the filmmakers work - makes this kind of analysis more interesting, in that if you were to ask me - say a week or so ago, which filmmaker was better at dialogue and humor - I'd say Whedon. I'd also say Whedon was better at characterization and emotional character moments. Both, aren't the best at plotting. And I'd have said Whedon was better at layers, metaphor, and narrative. Snyder - I'd have said was better at cinematography, action scenes, plot (not by much) and that's about it.
Folks? I've changed my mind. In respect to Justice League? Snyder actually is better at dialogue, humor, characterization, emotional character moments, action, story, and cinematography. I was surprised by this, since I generally prefer Whedon's films and works to Snyder's. Snyder tends to be dark, somewhat Randian in tone, and not memorable in the dialogue department. He's still not exactly stellar in the dialogue department - but he is so much better here than Whedon. Also, weirdly, I sensed more of a Randian/conservative theme coming from Whedon's group than from Snyder's.
That's why I feel the need to analyze why - because I was surprised. I don't get surprised by films that often. Also the comparison provides some insight as to what works and what doesn't and why. In particular dialogue - which is a lot harder to write well than people realize. In addition - dialogue needs to accomplish several things: 1) Be true to the character and/or reveal character, 2) Provide information, and 3) Further the plot.
How you do it - will determine how your reader or viewer responds to your characters and story. But it's even harder, or at least I think it is, for characters you've not created and in particular those that your audience may be as familiar if not more familiar with than you are. (I think most fanfic writers would appreciate that. It's why I don't like writing fanfic, I get self-conscious. For me, when I read or watch something utilizing characters I've fallen in love with - I get thrust out of the story when the characters say something out of character or do something out of character.)
Justice League Film Comparison Regarding Use of Dialogue or Why I'm Glad I'm Not a Screenwriter
There's an interesting article about the three original scripts associated with Justice League - that was published in 2019.
1. Snyder said he worked with Chris Terrio to complete the Justice League script prior to the release of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and the film's divisive reception forced them to reconsider their approach. Snyder referred to this script as "the really scary version," and said he got nervous after Batman v Superman and Warner Bros. also told him many elements from the original script had to be changed. Snyder said "the original Justice League script, we didn't even shoot."
2. Zack Snyder's Revised script with Chris Terrio aka the Snydercut, which is the script in the Snydercut, with a few revisions. It's also the script that was re-written by Joss Whedon et company. When people talk about the Snyder Cut, this is what they're talking about. Zack Snyder storyboarded and shot 100% of this version of the movie and was well into post-production before leaving the movie. The Knightmare timeline focus was still present and Darkseid was meant to play a major role in the background, with his lieutenant Steppenwolf serving as the chief antagonist.
This version contained more backstory for the new characters, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman, including more of their side characters like Iris West, Victor Stone's mom, Vulko, and more. Zack Snyder said Cyborg was the "heart" of the movie, and storyboards and leaked scenes suggest Cyborg could have gotten an origin scene reminiscent of Doctor Manhattan's origin scene in Watchmen.
3. Joss Whedon Reboot: This is the version that was released in theaters. It's based around Snyder and Terrio's rewritten script, but had significant alterations by a team of writers including Geoff Johns, Joss Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Seth Grahame-Smith, and Andrea Berloff. Ultimately, Joss Whedon's alterations made the biggest impact and earned him the director role for reshoots after Snyder left. He's credited as a writer on the movie, which, per WGA standards, means he was deemed to have had a 33% influence (not necessarily page or word count) on the final product.
The Snyder Cut is presumed to have been around three and a half hours long, but ex-Warner Bros. Chairman and CEO Kevin Tsujihara placed a 2-hour runtime mandate on the final cut. With an hour and a half of Snyder content cut and some reshoots and additions by Whedon, that means at least two to two and a half hours of Snyder's movie was left out of the final product.
What happened? Joss Whedon was hired to "help" punch up the script of Justice League. And on the 2017 film, Whedon's only credit is "script" which he allegedly co-wrote with Chris Terrio. It's worth noting, before we go any further that he did not write the script by himself, and Terrio never worked directly with him. He had help with the script from Geoff Johns (a writer of the Justice League and Teen Titans comics) and Jon Berg. Per the article above Whedon's script was based around Snyder and Terrio's rewritten script, but had significant alterations by a team of writers including Geoff Johns, Joss Whedon, Allan Heinberg, Seth Grahame-Smith, and Andrea Berloff. They also largely edited and re-wrote Chris Terrio and Zack Snyder's original script.
In addition, Whedon is known for his script-doctoring skills and got his start fixing other people's scripts. He did that even as a show-runner on various television series. But Whedon also is a comedy writer - who came from situation comedy writing - specifically Roseanne, which is know for it's insult humor and slapstick. Also Buffy often had similar low brow and slangy, quips. Snyder - or so it was claimed, was dour with his script and humorless. They wanted to "humanize" and "lighten it up".
Note - there is only one screenwriter credit on the Snyder version - Chris Terrio does the script, Snyder directs. On the Whedon version - there's Whedon and Terrio. We also know from the article above on Whedon's Reboot, Johns, and various others who had a hand in the script - with Whedon directing and shooting the new footage. I point this out - because there's an old adage amongst film geeks and screenwriters - the more writers involved with the script - the worse the film will be. Same with the old adage about too many chefs in a kitchen? There's a reason a team of writers rarely if ever gets an Oscar or is nominated for any film.
Luckily for comparison purposes there are scenes that only the dialogue was changed. Otherwise this would be harder. (Also I'm referencing youtube and this Site for the Justice League 2017 script. My memory isn't perfect or word for word. Along with other online comparisons, and the movies on HBO Max.)
1. Diana's Dialogue with A Terrorist
In the 2017 film, Diana's action sequence and interaction with the terrorists is cut short, and as a result she doesn't appear nearly as deadly or dangerous. She also doesn't kill anyone. In Snyder's version, Diana has a longer action sequence and kills all the terrorists brutally. Also goes out of her way to save the kids.
The Terrorists are taking over a Capital Building in London, she comes in and fights them, after they hold the police at a standstill and are seconds from blowing up the building and the school group held as hostages inside.
The dialogue in both sequences is pretty much the same - except for the very end.
Justice League 2017 Dialogue:
Terrorist: I don't believe it. What are you? (This isn't in the original script- Whedon add-on.)
Diana: A believer. (Changed from "Believe it" in the original script. Whedon-add on)
Go here for the sequence in the 2017 film
Justice League 2020 Dialogue:
Terrorist: I don't believe it.
Diana: Believe it.
[Much more amusing, and has a wry wit - also it fits the characters.]
The change is precipitated by the writing team on the reboot, lead by Whedon and Johns wanting to redirect the scene towards "the mother boxes" and superheros. But it's the terrorist doesn't know about the mother boxes or the larger picture. So, "A believer" doesn't make sense. If it's in relation to female empowerment? It doesn't work either - since there's no follow-through.
After the terrorist is killed, Diana turns to the school children to see if they are alright.
Diana: It's okay, it's over. Are you alright, princess?
Little Girl: Yes, can I be you when I grow up?
Diana: You can be whatever you want to be. [None of this is in the Whedon Reboot script or the 2017 script.]
See subtle change makes all the difference. The addition of this dialogue re-emphasizes Snyder's intent behind "believe it" - also the terrorists are all male, and the school troop is all women and young girls. Wonder Woman kills all the male terrorists, and brutally, saving the women and young girls they were going to slaughter. This echoes a scene with her Amazonian sisters earlier in the film. And the idea of sisterhood. Diana's focus in Snyder's vision is on the loss of her Amazonian family, not Trevor. While the Whedon cut or vision shows her focus is less on her Amazonian family. Less on her own empowerment. And the Whedon version oddly, undercuts her at various turns.
The question is why did Whedon and his fellow writers choose to go in the direction that they did? I don't know. But it seems counter to what was expected. I'd have expected it more from Snyder - yet Snyder empowers Diana and the girls - and has a strong them of female empowerment in his version. And Diana isn't objectified in his version at all.
Go here for the sequence in the 2020 film analysis
If you check out the side by side comparison above - you will also notice all the other changes. The Wonder Woman sequence is far more powerful in Snyder's than the Whedon/Johns et al version. It's darker, more realistic, and as a result packs more of the punch. While Whedon's version feels a bit like watching an episode of Marvel Agents of Shield (no offense intended to MoA, but it's more television or Marvel level of action, and note less time for Wonder Woman, while Batman gets longer on the roof fighting his robber in a scene immediately before this one in Whedon's Reboot.)
2. Bruce Recruits Barry
Justice League 2017 Batman recruits the Flash clip
[Better yet - here's a direct side by side comparison of Batman recruits Barry Allen - where you can see the differences in the dialogue and shots. ]
The dialogue in this scene is about the same as Snyder's with one key difference, the cringe-inducing brunch monologue that Barry riffs on right after he says the line "I need friends".
Bruce: I'm putting together a team. People with special abilities. You see, I believe enemies are coming.
Barry: Stop right there. I'm in.
Bruce: You are?
Barry: Yeah. I need... friends. People are difficult. They require a lot of focus. They have like a rhythm that I haven't quite been able to...Like, Brunch? Like... What is Brunch? You wait in line for an hour... for, essentially, lunch. I mean, I don't know. People are... a little slow.[None of the underlined speech is in the original Snyder version, it was all added in the Whedon version.]
Bruce: Great..I'll try to keep up. [Underlined dialogue is also added].
Barry: Can I keep this?
Justice League 2020
Bruce: I'm putting together a team. People with special abilities. You see, I believe enemies are coming.
Barry: Stop right there. I'm in.
Bruce: You are?
Barry: Yeah. I need... friends.
Bruce: Great..
Barry: Can I keep this?
What's baffling is why they added that brunch speech? It's not funny - it's kind of grating actually. And feels a little off. Also the film was allegedly three and a half hours too long originally, so they had to cut stuff. Which begs the question, why add a long rambling speech? Does it get across the character better? I don't think it does. Does it further the plot? No. And it's actually kind of funnier without the long speech.
My guess is they felt it would work better with the audience, make Allen more appealing to their target age group? Or provide a character insight in short blurb?
Snyder - adds a longer sequence, where Barry is interviewing for a dog walking job, mets Iris, then as she's driving away - he races to save her from a collision with a truck. It is an apt demonstration of his powers, his nerdiness, and his inability to deal with Iris.
The addition in the Whedon version is Barry goofily drawing glasses and a smiley face on the impatient man in line behind him at the State Prison, where he goes to see his father. The scene isn't funny, and doesn't provide much information on Barry. It is admittedly shorter but not by much.
Everything else in the Allen's introduction is more or less the same.
What I found fascinating and surprising is that Snyder's version focuses on female empowerment, while Whedon's focuses on Nerdy Socially Awkward Boy empowerment often at the detriment of women. And it's the nerdy boy's hero-worship of the White Male Superhero. Women and Minorities in Whedon's version are either pushed into the side-kick category or objectified. The shifts in the dialogue get this across. While Diana's scene is truncated, the Flash's isn't - if anything they added dialogue to it.
They do however remove the first introduction to the Flash, and replace it with a joke, that kind of falls flat. Jokes require build up and continuity to work well. Here it feels off, and unnecessary. The Flash isn't annoying or grating in Snyder's version, he is in Whedon's. He comes across as a bit of a jerk in Whedon's version - and it's hard, as a result, to care about him, while in Snyder's you do care about him - and he isn't a jerk at all. i would have expected the opposite.
3. Bruce Attempts to Recruit Aquaman
Aquaman's introduction much like the Flash's is similar between the two films. Very little is changed. Whedon uses pretty much all of Snyder's footage, with just a few small alterations. (No villagers singing, and Aquaman doesn't just disappear into the water, he kind of zooms off in Whedon's take.] But other than that? The action is the same. What is different is the dialogue. And in places it is merely subtly different - demonstrating how a bad beta or editor can damage a scene with just a word or two. Word choice is vital here.
[As an aside - when I first moved to NYC, I interviewed for a copy-edit job but got in trouble for trying to "rewrite" the copy. Later I've run across a variety of editors, and the best find a way to rework a script or a story to make it stronger and find the characters in the story, and further the plot. Here - it appears the direction for the rewrite was to emphasize the plot at the detriment of the characters, and story. The mother box mystery was emphasized or the hunt for the McGuffin - which isn't always the best decision. ]
2017 Version - Joss Whedon Reboot
[Two lines are deleted here.]
Bruce: I'm asking for your help. I believe there's a stranger, comes
to this village from the sea.He comes in the winter when the people are hungry... and brings fish. He comes on the king tide...That was last night.
Man speaks in Icelandic.
Arthur: [Deleted] Icebergs in the harbour. Four months since the last ship got through.
Bruce: Well, this stranger...Doesn't come by ship. There are enemies coming, from far away.[ Deleted] I need warriors. I'm building an alliance, to defend ourselves. [Deleted dialogue exchange] Look, I'll give you $25,000 to... talk to this man right now...
outside.
Arthur: (In Icelandic) Pretty sure he'll give it to me anyway. (Villagers laugh) [Not clear what he says to the villagers in the Snyder version.]
Bruce: Tell me what those 3 boxes are and I'll make it 30. [Underline text Added content by Whedon.]
Arthur: You should get out.
Bruce: Can you at least point me to Atlantis? - [Underlined text added by Whedon]
Bruce: Arthur Curry. Also known as the Protector of the Oceans. The Aquaman.
I hear you can talk to fish. [Underlined text added by Whedon.]
***
Arthur: Let me get this straight, you do it dressed like a bat, an actual bat?
Bruce: It worked for like 20 years in Gotham.
Arthur: Oh that shit hole.
Bruce: The fight comes, we'll need you.
Arthur: Don't count on it Batman.
Bruce: Why not?
Arthur: Because I don't need people coming here digging into my business and digging into my life, the people from Atlantis - wanting me to do this and to do that - I want to be left alone. [underlined text was changed - Atlantis is never mentioned in Snyder's verison and it is you, not people in Snyder's.]
Bruce: Is that why you help these people in the middle of nowhere? So you can just leave? [Underlined text is Whedon's. The rest of Snyder's was Deleted.]
Arthur: If I don't protect them no one else does.
Bruce: If you want to protect them you need to work with me. [Changed completely]
Arthur: A Strong man is strongest alone. You ever heard of that?
Bruce: That's not a saying that's the opposite of what the saying is.[ Underlined text is pure Whedon, and is a phrase that is in most of his works, it's sort of his go to line when he doesn't like a saying. It's also an example of a writer inserting himself into the text. Bruce would never say this.]
Arthur: Yup - Doesn't mean I'm wrong. [Added dialogue]
Bruce: You ever hear of Superman? He died fighting next to me.
Arthur: My point exactly.
Bruce: What's in those three boxes? [Underlined text added by Whedon.]
Arthur: It's ancient history...
Bruce: Mankind's melting the polar ice caps... Destroying the ecosystem,
they got it coming?
Arthur: Hey, I don't mind if the ocean rise.
Bruce: How about if they boil? [Added content. Not in the original.]
Arthur: Dressed like a bat...you are out your mind, Bruce Wayne.
-
2020 Version:
Icelandic Village Leader/Old Man studying Bruce's business card. "Bruce Wayne" (heavy accent), then says something in Icelandic.
Arthur: Talk. [Bold is content that is not in the 2017 version and is only in Snyder's.]
Bruce: I believe there's a stranger, comes
to this village from the sea.He comes in the winter when the people are hungry... and brings fish. He comes on the king tide...That was last night.
Man speaks in Icelandic.
Arthur: You have eyes? So see. Icebergs in the harbor. It's been four months since the last ship got through.
Bruce: Well, this stranger...Doesn't come by ship.
Arthur says something in Icelandic. (He's playing translator.)
Bruce: There are enemies coming, from far away.I need warriors. This stranger, others like him, I'm building an alliance, to defend ourselves. It's very important that I see this man.
Arthur: If this stranger exists, he'll give you a message $5,000 American.
Bruce: Look, I'll give you $25,000 to... talk to this man right now...
outside.
Arthur speaks in Icelandic. Man and villagers laugh.
Old Fisherman: How dare this dog speak to us like children. Oooh magical man from the sea? We're poor. Not stupid. Get out!
Bruce: I'm sorry I can't do that. I'll leave after we've spoken.
Arthur: He said get out.
Bruce says in Icelandic: I don't think so. (Demonstrating he never needed the translator. And grins, sheepishly as if stating 'got you' with his eyes.) [ The BOLD text is the content that differs or was deleted from the Whedon script.]
Arthur furious throws Bruce against the wall and lifts him. Bruce pulls out a huge wade of bills and hands it to Arthur. And Arthur smiles letting him down and gives the wad of bills to a little girl who takes them to the leader of the village. [This was also removed - taking away the significance of the financial transaction - and Bruce's superpower with the team is his wealth, and gadetry. He has no super-powers.]
Bruce: Arthur Curry, also known as the Protector of the Oceans, the Aquaman.
_
Arthur: Let me get this straight, you do it dressed like a bat, an actual bat?
Bruce: It worked for like 20 years in Gotham.
Arthur: Oh that shit hole.
Bruce: The fight comes, we'll need you.
Arthur: Don't count on it Batman.
Bruce: Why not?
Arthur: Because I don't like you coming here digging into my business and getting into my life, I want to be left alone. [This is shorter - Snyder chooses to show us Aquaman's issues with Atlantis instead of telling us about it in a quick line of dialogue.]
Bruce: Is that why you do this? Why you help these people in the middle of nowhere? I've read the stories. Your good deeds you think no one sees. You'll join us. [Admittedly removing this bit was not a bad idea - it's overkill.]
Arthur: The strong man is strongest alone, you ever heard of that?
Bruce: You ever hear of Superman? He died fighting next to me.
Arthur: My point exactly.
Bruce: He believed we were stronger fighting together. We owe it to him.
Arthur: I don't owe anyone, anything. Dressed like a bat. You're out of your mind Bruce Wayne. [The bold is Snyder. Keeps the focus on Superman, and doesn't distract with a bad joke that makes no sense.]
What is fascinating about this scene along with the other two - is how each of the characters are changed, and not in a good way via Whedon et company's alterations to the script. Arthur comes across as kind of greedy and almost grating in Whedon's take. And Bruce's exasperation shows more, as opposed to a weathered patience. Bruce also knows more than he should - he knows about Atlantis, he knows more about the boxes, and he gives out more information than he normally would.
The humor implanted in the scene - doesn't work with the characters. It's jarring. I can't see Affleck's Bruce Wayne stating "I hear you talk to fish", Michael Keaton's - yes, or Tim Burton's version of the character, but not this iteration. It's off. Also Curry's role as interpreter is underlined more, and villagers are more part of the scene in Snyder's version.
As far as I can tell they changed the dialogue to make it more humorous and pull the theme and story in another direction. But it's clumsy, and jarring in how it is done.
One more example, I think in regards to dialogue that was changed while the directorial footage is essentially the same. Changing the meaning of the footage - which had originally been shot with different dialogue.
4. Justice League's Fight with Superman
Whedon version only is in underlined text. Snyder text that isn't in Whedon's 2017 film is in BOLD. If the dialogue is in both - it's not underlined or in bold. Only the differences between the two are either underlined or in bold.
Diana: He's back.
Arthur: He's not all right. [Underlined Text Added by Whedon to 2017 version. *Note - almost all of Arthur's lines are added by Whedon, Arthur doesn't talk in the Snyder version of the battle, nor does Clark.]
Cyborg: Something's wrong, He's scanning us. [ Snyder Text that is not in the 2017 version is in BOLD}
Flash: What?
Cyborg: Arthur, you need to relax. Your adrenaline's spiking.
Arthur: Because he's not all right. [ both added by Whedon]
Flash: Oh, no. Should we bow? Or show our bellies?[added] Victor?...Victor?..
Diana: Victor, stop.
Cyborg: Shit!
Arthur: What are you doing? (In Snyder's The Flash states: What are you doing?)
Cyborg (Victor): It's my armor's auto defense system... It senses danger[Bold Snyder Underline Whedon]
Diana/Flash: No.
Victor/Cyborg: It's stronger since the interface... [Whedon]
Flash: Victor, no[Snyder]
Victor: - I can't control it.
Flash: Victor, no!
Flash/Arthur/Diana: Shut it off!
Flash: Think of happy thoughts, Victor![Whedon Added]
Diana: Kal-El, no!
Diana: He's confused, he doesn't know who he is.
Flash: Pet Sematary.
Diana: Arthur, we need to restrain him.
Victor: I got him.
Diana: Kal-El, the last son of Krypton... Remember who you are. Tell me who you...
Superman goes on a rampage of sorts - and the SWAT and cops try to stop him, he takes out their vehicals.
Cyborg saves a cop and states :You should probably move.
Then Batman comes on the scene.
Batman to SWAT guy: You alright?
Swat Guy on the ground after Superman took him out: Yeah
Batman helping him up: Get up and take cover back there. Go. [ Batman helps move the guy out and clears the field.]
Superman and Batman slowly stalk towards each other like a pair of gunfighters. As the others try to stop them. Cyborg jumps in the way and is throw aside and stomped on by Superman. Then Arthur and the Flash try, but he thrusts the Flash at Arthur, so the Flash take out Arthur, and both crash into the wall behind him.[Snyder Cut]
Bruce: Clark...
Superman: I know you. [Whedon Cut]
Diana: Please don't make me do this.
Bruce: Clark...Clark no...[Clark hits Bruce with his lazer beams which blast Batman against the cop car and Batman hastily puts out the fire on his elbow gear which he used to block himself.
Bruce: Alfred, I need the big gun...
Clark: You did this...
Bruce: I had to.
Clark: You won't let me live. You won't let me die.
Bruce: Clark, no, The world needs you.
Clark hits Bruce with the lazer beams and Lois runs into the way of it, with a cop trying to stop her. [Note in the Whedon version Batman has Alfred and a cop bring Lois to the memorial to stop Clark. In the Snyder version, Lois was already at the memorial - saying Goodbye one last time, before pushing past her grief and going back to work. In the Whedon version she went back to work and already got past it, in the Snyder she's still mourning him and visits the memorial each day, and hasn't gotten up the nerve to go back to work, yet.]
Clark: But does it need you? Tell me... Do you bleed? [Clark doesn't speak at all in the Snyder version, just in the Whedon version.]
Lois: Clark. Clark. [In Snyder version cops state Hold fire, hold fire, Whoa, hold fire.] Clark, Please... Please. Please, just go. Yeah? Let's go. Yeah... [Lois's entrance in the Snyder version is filmed similarily to Batman vs. Superman, where she stops Batman from killing Superman, here she's doing the opposite.]
Bruce: Yeah. Something's definitely bleeding.
[Flash and Arthur in the Snyder version share a comical moment, where Arthur silently turns to the Flash and points at him, eyebrows raised indicating, you did this.
Flash: I'm so sorry."
[Steppenwolf takes the Mother Box in the the Whedon version. But in the Snyder version, Cyborg's Dad, Silas took off with it and overheats it - so they can track it. Sacrificing himself in the process - and in front of Cyborg.]
[Everything is different from this point forward - a whole sequence is cut by the Whedon version featuring the team going after the mother box along with Steppenwolf, and arguing over whether saving Superman was such a hot idea. Arthur doesn't think so, Batman and Diana do.]
Notice how Clark says nothing in the Snyder version, until Lois stops him and takes him away - actually he doesn't say anything until he and Lois land at his farm in Smallville. He takes her to the same place in both versions.
Also in the Whedon version there are a lot of quips and banter. Arthur says more in the Whedon version, while in the Snyder he says very little - unless necessary. Diana does most of the talking. Bruce also doesn't say very much. Most of the talking is done by Diana, the Flash and Cyborg.
In each of these sections the character is often sacrificed in the dialogue by the Whedon version for jokes, witty banter, or for exposition (explaining the mother boxes), while in the Snyder version the dialogue is focused on further plot and revealing the characters. In the Snyder - funny moments are either situational (Flash being thrust into Arthur - which worked better for humor purposes) or small lines, like Bruce knowing Icelandic and paying Arthur more money than he asked for. Or, in Flash's section the quick exchange - "I need friends", Bruce - "Great". There's hidden irony there - since Bruce doesn't quite have them either.
Rule number 1 with dialogue - it has to be true to the character. And in regards to exposition - it's better to show than tell in film. Info dumps in film work better when we can see them.
I thought it would be better to show the differences in the dialogue above then merely tell you about them. [Whether that worked or not, I don't know. I had to see the film for myself to get it, so it may not have.] Some of the Whedon cut's changes and adjustments are rather baffling. And others, are well, offensive. Most of what he does with Diana is offensive - and in a way that surprised me.
To be fair to Whedon, he's not the sole writer on his version - and he was catering to a lot of people above him, who hired him, and had been nitpicking at the film for quite some time. Yet, here's the thing - being familiar with Whedon's other works - the added jokes, quips, and demeaning content - is boiler-plate Whedon. I've seen this in the Avengers, Buffy, Firefly, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible and Angel, along with in the comics and the portions of the X-men film that he script doctored. He's not doing anything he hasn't done in his other works. He was actually hired to do insert it.
Undercutting a dramatic moment with humor - which is normally something that I enjoy, can work in some situations - but it matters how you do it. In this instance the undercut is at the expense of the characters - and in particular women and minority characters. So, it stood out more here - because it was outside of his own stuff, it wasn't evenly braced against the empowering moments with those characters, and it wasn't softened by the other writers/directors that Whedon had hired. Here he's putting it into someone else's story, and redirecting and re-editing that person's footage. As a result these items, which I recognized as Whedon's style of humor, stand out in stark contrast and not in a good way. That surprised me - because I hadn't noticed how demeaning Whedon's humor can be to minority and women - until I watched and compared the films. When it was gone, the film was actually better, less jarring. And the characters of Wonder Woman, Lois, Cyborg, and Aguaman had more agency and came across as less silly or only there to support Batman and Superman. They had agency, they were leads, and they were more important - in Snyder's version.
There are a few adjustments though that make sense, and make the scene tighter - in say the Aquaman scene with Bruce. But in the Flash scene they add dialogue - which unnecessarily lengthens the scene. Also there's additions of dialogue by Whedon et al in the Superman fights the Justice League sequence that makes no sense, and renders the scene somewhat silly. Not comical - just silly and grating. Superman wouldn't talk yet - he'd just been resurrected. And he doesn't know that Batman orchestrated it. Nor would he necessarily remember the particulars of his fights with Batman in Bvs.S. Snyder is a stickler for these sorts of details, while Whedon doesn't tend to be.
Another thing I noticed about the Whedon cut's use of humor - it often made the film somewhat "campy" or "silly" and in other areas..."crass and cringe-inducing". I'm not sure Whedon respected the material in quite the same way as Snyder did or the characters.
In the Avengers, some of this works, mainly because it fits the characters. But I don't think it works with DC's characters quite as well, and not here.
As previously noted, there's a continuity problem in regards to small details - these characters and the tone of who some of them are - have been previously set up in other films, that have the tonal quality. Clark, Bruce and Diana were previously set up in Man of Steel, Batman vs. Superman, and Wonder Woman. Whedon's Justice League jumped away from that continuity of character, along with other things. Whedon tries to refer to BvS with an exchange between Clark and Bruce in the Justice League fights Superman sequence, but it doesn't quite work - if anything it is jarring, and it threw me out of the story. Clark wouldn't talk at this point. He's never been much of a talker to begin with.
Anyhow, I think dialogue matters in film, and if used poorly or inadequately, it can pull the viewer out of the story or jar them. It's true of other stories as well - fanfic, novels, etc. If your characters don't sound genuine to the reader - the reader is gone.
[ETA: Fixed some typos and changed Whedon's addition to "underlined" text, and Snyder's to "bold" text, since blockquotes automatically turn it into italicized text.]
no subject
Date: 2021-03-28 09:44 pm (UTC)You've written: "and young girls they were going to girl."
Also, just before part 2 (Bruce recruits Barry), you have a weird html tag that's turned a whole bunch of text into a web link.
ETA: Also, you're putting some quotes in italics for emphasis, but your normal journal style has all quoted text in italics, so I can't tell the difference.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2021-03-28 10:05 pm (UTC)Indeed. These days I can pick a Whedon quip a mile away. I think it can work – in contexts where it fits the characters – but as a rule I think Whedon actually does better at things that he can't make light-hearted (like The Body), because otherwise he gets so smug about being "clever" that he forgets to make "clever" quips actually fit the scene.
(no subject)
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