Falling down and getting up again.

[shadowkat]

Difficult weekend ahead. Now that I have an agent - she wants to take me to lots of places. One on Saturday, and four on Sunday. Somehow I have to find a way to fit church activities admist all of this apartment hunting, which admittedly gives me the heebie jeebies - or jitters. The apartment hunting not church.

Church last week had a rather annoying guest speaker that put me in a foul mood. Not comforting at all. Just snarky and holier than thou. Which I so don't need in church. I can get that on the internet and well at work and on tv, thank you very much. Luckily for me - it was a guest speaker.

Work aggravating. Everyone is grouchy. We all hate the Windows 2010 Word, Excel package. It's not that bad for MAC (as far as I can tell) but for Dell it is a nightmare. Can't find things. Documents won't open without shutting down the entire program and making it restart, then shutting it down again. Ugga bugga, indeed.

Add to the aggravation - two cold and rainy days...that smelled of old leaves and mud. Making me itchy and restless and a bit cranky.

Also...I've got a question for you all, it's rather general and I'm not even sure you've read this far or at all - so may not get any answers or just one or two.

What do you do when you realize that you are starting to, ahem, dislike a writer and a story thread/verse, characters that you loved to pieces? I'm not talking about something you casually like or a tv show you loved but never wrote about. I mean something that you invested in emotionally. Wrote meta on. Fanfic. Joined a fandom. Discussed to death. Drew pictures of.
Collected all the DVD's and stories about. Something you really loved. And then, wham...an episode, a comic, a novelization - something that the "original creator" - the writer you loved, creates or does with that story - makes you see it in a light...that well, causes you to feel
a sense of deep dissatisfaction and disappointment. And as time wears on...much like water and wind slowly eroding at rocks...you find your love for the characters, the verse and the writer eroding...until you wake up one day and think, I don't love this writer or his work any longer.
I don't even like it. It offends me. And you find yourself struggling with the feeling, because you don't want to dislike it, you want to like it, damn it! You want to...to hold on to what it felt like. But the more you try...it just doesn't quite work. And you think, uhm, okay, maybe I'll change my mind with the next episode or issue...maybe this is a passing phase, a mood...but it isn't. And well, you have this fandom you've joined. And they post comments to you only when you write about that show or that comic or that book. But you realize what you are writing is getting increasingly negative, increasingly ranty and snarky...and you feel like you might be alienating folks, losing friends, and you don't want to. You want to hold on to the fun. But...you really really hate have issues with what the writer is doing...to such a degree that you want to kick the writer or slap him upside the head and say, why? Why are you doing this to the characters I fell in love with? WHY!!! And you want to hurt this writer. You want this writer to feel your pain and your frustration. And you feel incredibly guilty for feeling this way, and think...life is too short and maybe I should just not ever read anything by this silly writer again. But you want to know the end of the story or tv show...so you hang in there...but it gets worse.

Has this ever happened to you? If so, what did you do? Did you go find another fandom? Or just ignore everything that soured you on the writer and focus on the things you loved? Or shrug and move away from it all, after engaging a bit of private grief?

Now that I've written all of the above, odd as it may sound? I'm not sure I want to know the answers? Or perhaps I do, just without any advice attached? Like "you should do this or that", or "I don't get invested in such and such..." or "maybe you are just looking at it the wrong way". I think what I want tonight, in my cool apartment, is comfort. Hugs. A blanket. Or a touch. Such as..."yes, feel that way too, totally". Or "I have felt that way. And you are not an idiot for falling in love with a fictional piece of work only to become disappointed and disillusioned in it, regardless of what that work is or was, or minor it may seem to the world. It meant something to you, and that's all that is important."

The problem with life sometimes I think is regardless of what we do, we are always navigating around pot-holes, shit, quick-sand, and mosquitos, to get to the rainbows and sunshine.

Comments

[jesuswasbatman]

I'm pretty sure I feel the same as you about the canon in question, but not as painful. I really know how you feel about a different canon, but fortunately it's a very long-running franchise and the guy who was annoying me has left and been replaced by someone whose work I vastly prefer. But yeah, I don't know what to suggest except to look for something that does the things that are annoying you better.

[shadowkat]

It works better if the canon can survive the writer or is not dependent on a writer. Like Doctor Who - which I think in some respects may be a safer fandom to commit to, if you don't like XYZ writer, no worries, he'll leave eventually and someone else will take his place.

But a canon that is unfortunately too associated with one specific writer? If you discover that there's something about that writer or in that writer's work which, well, bothers you on a deep level - what can you do? (shrugs)

I'm beginning to understand why a lot of people on my flist fled the Whedon fandom for Doctor Who, Star-Gate, or others...where it's not connected to just one writer.
The Marvel comics were a bit like that - I disliked one writer so could quit the comics when he wrote them.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Totally empathize. Most of my fannish loves I've always continued to love, it may move into a nostalgic feeling but I can love them even when they go wrong (for example, I actually quit watching X-Files before it ended it's run, and I find the last movie nigh unwatchable. But somehow it's never dented my love of what I loved.)

On the other hand, I have two fandom things where somewhere along the line the negative feelings over having been jerked around steals much of the feeling I had for the shows and/or characters (no need to go into specifics). It's weird because in most fannish things I'm not this way, but in these two... I can't help feeling the way that I do which, if I'm honest, has a bit of contempt for certain aspects of it. It's hard to recapture what I loved in the first place. DOn't know what to do about it though. Feelings do mellow with time, I guess. That's all I've got.

[liliaeth]

I have had that with Spider-Man for the past two years.

I first started reading about Spidey when I was eight years old. Before I was ever in any fandom, before anything, I was a Spidey fan. I would read anything about him, watch any cartoon about him. I mean, Spidey doesn't have one set writer, but for the most part the writers wrote him as the same lovable relatable character that he'd been for the past forty plus years.

And then two years ago, One More Day and Brand New Day happened. For those who aren't into Marvel*g*, the editor in chief couldn't stand that Peter was married, so he did some stupid retcon to get rid of the marriage. Not just by you know, divorcing the character, but by having him make a deal with a demon to make it so the marriage never happened.

Bad enough in and of itself, showing a distinct lack of respect for the character of MJ and women in general, but you'd think they'd still have the character of Peter left, right?

Wrong!

Quesada wasn't pleased to just destroy Peter's marriage, no, that wasn't enough for him. Instead he completely and utterly wiped out everything that made Peter so lovable to begin with.

Now instead of beinga heroic underdog, he's a total loser. Because that's how Quesada sees the character. The character's sense of responsibility has been winnowed down to nearly nothing. He's been made opportunistic, selfish, utterly made of fail. And we're supposed to see this as a 'good' thing, because it makes him more like the 'everyman', more 'like the reader'.

I don't know about you, but I find that insulting as hell.

I could relate to the hero, I could relate to the good man that Peter was. I can't relate to the piece of scum they've turned him into.

Young should not equate stupid or soulless, no matter what Quesada might think. And the fact that the title has gone from being one of the most woman friendly comics Marvel has to misogynistic crap isn't helping either.

Sorry, I tend to go into rant mode after what's been done to my fave char. As a result I've lost more and more of my interest in Marvel and comics in general. In short, I've stopped buying comics, the most I still do is download them. Even titles that don't show the char destruction that regular universe Spidey has gone through, are tainted just by connection with Marvel as a whole.

I'm no longer even excited about the new movie that's in development, just because I no longer trust anyone connected to Quesada to create a movie that's even remotely about the Spider-Man I've loved since I was a child.

In short, it's tainted everything I've ever felt about the character and no matter how much I try to just give up on it, to stop reading to stop caring... I still just get angry whenever anything even reminds me of what was done to him. And it shortly sickens me to feel that way.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Didn't know that about Quesada or Spiderman. (Admittedly I'd only read the pre-MJ/Peter wedding and the wedding. I'm glad haven't read what happened after.) So sorry. The sexism that exists in the comics industry...every time you think it gets better, someone shows up and wham.

But yep...that's pretty much how I'm feeling right now.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

And you find yourself struggling with the feeling, because you don't want to dislike it, you want to like it, damn it! You want to...to hold on to what it felt like. But the more you try...it just doesn't quite work.

Are you that voice in my head whispering evil things about what I used to love? cause that's exactly how I've been feeling lately.

Music helps me.Sometimes. It's distracting anyway.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I'll just go with *hugs*!

I know the feeling in connection with S8 of course. I guess the bad thing is that the more you love something the harder it is to really believe an acknowledge it has gone rotten.

I had the same thing happen to me with things I was less fannish about and it was a lot easier to accept that there were just no ideas left.

I don't know what one can really do, except maybe trying to get back the love for the original show you liked and write about that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I love your icon by the way. Great Dean face.

[elisi]

Hmmm. Well in regards to Buffy (and Angel) fandom (which is the only one that applies) then it all happened quite organically. I only found online fandom after the show ended (whilst S5 of AtS was airing), and then immersed myself for years - exploring the show in every way I could, writing a TON of meta and fic. Doctor Who started the year after AtS finished so I started watching that, but was never particularly interested until the end of S3 when it began hitting all my buttons, and from then on it (and TW) slowly began to take over as my main fandom(s).

I'm still immensely fond of BtVS and AtS, but feel I've said everything I can say, explored all there is. (The Spike comics and AtF I like though, and I write about them because they tell interesting stories about characters I love.) As for s8... well, it has made my opinion of Joss plummet, but it's not affected my liking of the show, which was clearly the work of many many people. s8 itself I never considered canon (no really. I've written about this. A lot. Follow the tag if you want to be bored for hours) and since it was crack pretty much from day 1 I never invested emotionally. (Not that it's not upsetting to see something great brought down, but it's not real, you know?) All in all it's confirmed my view that if shows should be brought back, the fans should do it, not the creators. (See Joss & George Lucas - and RTD, Moffat and Lynch.)

Also, this helps:



(By the way, my use of this .gif in my s8 'reviews' isn't random. Firstly, I love Buffy in Rome, dating The Immortal. Secondly, I am utterly convinced that Capt Jack is The Immortal. (And I have written the fic to prove it!) Hence dancing Jack is mocking the very idea of Buffy moping in a Scottich castle, when in reality she was having fun with *him*!)

And I hope you slept well! :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Better, thank you.

My problem? I was a Whedon fan not just a Buffy fan. I think if I'd just been a fan of Buffy and Angel, it wouldn't be a problem.

[shapinglight]

I'll have to go with the :hugs: too, because I think I'm going through a similar experience and I don't know how to deal with myself, let alone advise someone else.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Prefer the hugs to the advise. I don't really want advice, since I know the answers...so much as well what you are offering, which is yep, me to. <>.

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

I can empathise with you completely, as I'm going through something similar myself right now. *hugs*

[sarian71]

You have no idea how therapeutic it felt to read this. :)
Especially this part:

"You want to hold on to the fun. But...you really really hate have issues with what the writer is doing...to such a degree that you want to kick the writer or slap him/her upside the head and say, why? Why are you doing this to the characters I fell in love with? WHY!!! And you want to hurt this writer. You want this writer to feel your pain and your frustration. And you feel incredibly guilty for feeling this way, and think...life is too short and maybe I should just not ever read anything by this silly writer again. But you want to know the end of the story or tv show...so you hang in there...but it gets worse, even though you have hope that it won't, that it will be better."

There's someone who feels exactly the way I do, and can put these feelings into words! There's something incredibly satisfying about that! :) The desire to be able to like something. The negative feelings towards the writer. The guilt about feeling those negative feelings. The hoping against hope. Yes, I'm definitely co-signing all of that.

S8 has been a real eye-opener to me in a negative way, and it's tragic how it's affecting my overall enjoyment of what was before. It breaks my heart to watch how this story (and the writer...) is choking on its deluded self-importance and stumbling on its convoluted trickery. What a waste. *sad sigh*

As for your question, can't help you there. It's the first time for me, too... :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I considered deleting the post this morning because after I wrote it, I felt embarrassed and feared the responses I might get. Now I'm glad I didn't. So thank you very much for your kind response.
It was exactly what I needed.

Hugs you hard.;-)

[sarian71]

*hugs you back*

I'm so glad you didn't delete this post. It would've been a real pity to see it disappear, because I honestly think posts like this are sorely needed right now. There's a lot of people in Buffy fandom who are trying to process their (visceral) disappointment and anger at S8. And mutual commiseration does help. :)

Btw, have you seen jnb71976's latest post. Talk about catharsis...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks - I hadn't, but just read it. And yes, that's part of it.
Although - I was having problems with the comics and what they were doing long before jnb did.

I've been telling several of the folks on my flist - who are serious Angel fans - not to read the Buffy comics. If you are an Angel fan or loved the character of Angel - you shouldn't read these comics. I've never seen a writer do to his lead characters what this one has done to his.

[ann1962]

And you find yourself struggling with the feeling, because you don't want to dislike it, you want to like it, damn it! You want to...to hold on to what it felt like. But the more you try...it just doesn't quite work.

Dollhouse did this for me. All of the things that may have squicked me in Buffy and Angel I could ignore easily enough, came full force in the few episodes of Dollhouse I watched. I was actually worried about Whedon's mental health, that he needed to go to these places, over and over again. So now I approach all he does now carefully, and put my fingers in my ears and sing lalalala for the stuff I don't like. Not mature, but works for me. As to the comics, finding them became increasingly difficult as the level of interest in them fell. At a certain point, I stopped looking. They were more work than I found them worth.

As to fans, I never judge a tv show by its fans because then I would never watch anything.

I would hope you wouldn't be losing friends for opinions you have. That'd be sad. You haven't said anything we all haven't thought at one time or another.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

As to the comics, finding them became increasingly difficult as the level of interest in them fell. At a certain point, I stopped looking. They were more work than I found them worth.

You had troubles finding them? Interesting. I wondered if sales had dropped. According to the NY stores they are doing fine. But it is NYC - whole different vibe and the shop people aren't into Buffy at all. Even if the wall right behind the desk is covered with Buffy action figures. I kid you not.

So now I approach all he does now carefully, and put my fingers in my ears and sing lalalala for the stuff I don't like.

I was, oddly enough, able to do that up until now. Now...unfortunately, I'm too good at pattern spotting and I'm starting to see a definite and somewhat disturbing pattern emerging. I'm seeing more of Warren Miers in Joss Whedon that I want to know about. ;-)

[rahirah]

Oh, hell yeah, I've been there. What I hate most is that the stuff I don't like inevitably backwashes over the stuff I did like, making me see it in new and unpleasant lights. I ended up sort of but not quite dropping out. People found my rantiness offensive, so I try not to post about it any longer. (Ironically, some of the people who were most offended by my rantiness are now writing rants of their own.)

I still want to write fanfic in that fandom, but I currently dislike the source material so much that it's even affecting the way I see my own way-AU version. :P

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What I hate most is that the stuff I don't like inevitably backwashes over the stuff I did like, making me see it in new and unpleasant lights.

That's how I'm feeling at the moment. I'm seeing a pattern that I don't want to see and it's ruining the things I loved about it.
And at the same time, I keep hoping I'm wrong, maybe if I squint and look at it from another angle? (I've read all the reviews and all the meta, but all it does is reinforce these feelings and make it harder and harder to ignore.)

It's not about shipping a relationship...god if only it were that simple. But no, there's something else...there's a thematic thread or tone in this work that rubs me the wrong way, is disturbing. It's a bit like discovering the Wizard of OZ is actually Warren Miers.

I still want to write fanfic in that fandom, but I currently dislike the source material so much that it's even affecting the way I see my own way-AU version. :P

I find I can't read the fanfic any longer. It's affecting that too.

[rahirah]

But no, there's something else...there's a thematic thread or tone in this work that rubs me the wrong way, is disturbing.

Yes, that. Shipwise, I've been an extreme cynic since s6/S7 - the comics are disappointing in that respect, but sadly not surprising. What bothers me more is that... this is really the way Whedon really sees his characters. This is what he thinks Buffy and Angel are like. And that makes me kind of ill.

Exactly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Exactly. As I wrote in response to a query in moscow_watcher's post on issue 38, which I'm reposting here because I said it better there :

" It has a lot to do with how Buffy and Angel are being depicted. And to a smaller degree Willow. There's a patronizing tone to the comics, both in the art and in the plot/thematic thread that is unsettling to me. Granted it may not be directed towards me, personally - but, it's unsettling all the same. Also it feels as though the writer has reduced these characters to their base or rudimentary characteristics in order to make a point, which could have been made in another way - without doing that and actually has been made repeatedly. Being a character gal - it aggravates me when characters are crammed into a story or plot-thread in order to serve the story-teller's whim. It sort of goes against the grain of the characters...and their free will, so the characters in effect become little more than the writers sock-puppets. For a writer who prides himself on being both an existentialist and athesist who believes in free will - I find this ironic and it well explains a lot.

Add to that - while the whole S7 plot-line did not quite work for me, what I did like about it - was the empowerment and sharing of power with others. The theme of sharing power - I liked. Of empowering other women. It was a metaphor that worked for me, personally. While I liked Becoming in S2, the replay here...has a connotation to it that is severely paternalistic in tone and says something about the writer... that is well, just plain creepy. There's I'm guessing a lot more of Warren Miers and Topher in Joss Whedon than I wanted to know about."

Re: Exactly.

[rahirah]

There's this really strong and icky subtext running through S7 of "Women can't handle power." The Slayer spell sets Twilight in motion. Willow's on the verge of going Dark Phoenix again. Simone and her followers are out and out criminals, but hey, they learned from Buffy that Slayers deserve castles and submarines. Buffy exploits a subordinate's crush to assuage her loneliness. A rogue Slayer is the one who sets the idiotic "Everybody loves vampires and hates Slayers" plot in motion. Buffy's been an ineffective leader, making one bad decision after another, and then succumbing to Twangel's sinister attraction, and then not caring an awful lot that the world has effectively already been destroyed.

I'm reminded, and not in a good way, of Chris Claremont's endless string of female characters who get ultimate power, go crazy, and have to be stripped of it.

Re: Exactly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Only quibble is I think you mean S8 not S7? ;-) (Although s7 is actually part of the problem.)

I've read the latest issue now. And am on the fence about reviewing it, most likely will just to figure out what it is that's bugging me and why it has tainted the entire series and my enjoyment of everything Whedon has done.

I think I know now. And it fits with what you state above. And I definitely see that in Claremont and Grant Morrison's X-men arcs. Every time a woman got power she went nuts, but men have no problems with it? Also her power either had to be controlled, taught, or given to her by men.

Here, Whedon empowered all these women at the end of S7, but the question arose - why just potentials, shouldn't men get power too,
and did these women even ask for it? The question that was not being asked, and unfortunately has to be if you are going to ask those other questions is this - why is the heroine of Buffy - chosen at 16, the only girl with powers, has to be controlled and overseen by a male watcher, and die young? Note adolescent girl, gets powers, only one in the world, dies young. AND..is controlled by a male organization that is the "brains" behind her, while she's their "weapon". In S7-8, Buffy's crime appears to be a) she didn't die young or opt to stay dead like a good little slayer once she outlasted her expiration date, b) she outlived and moved past her watcher and become her own boss not controlled, and c) she had the audacity to empower other girls her age, who would be chosen only if she died, without sending the Watcher Council to them to control them (note the girls wouldn't have gotten to choose anyhow - choosing to be a slayer was never in the offing.)
Then we are told that the power isn't her's to begin with, never was, it was given to her by male witches or wizards or shaman.
Now...all of this is easier to ignore, with the empowerment spell metaphor or the idea that Buffy wins in the end. But what S8 does is underline what I just stated and put big stars and quotes around it and jump up and down and say - look little girl with big power can't handle it, plus she only got it because I gave it to her. (I think I hear Warren Miers cackling in the background).

And I could dismiss this as...well my imagination or me reading far too much into it. BUT...every meta I've read references how Buffy needs to learn, how Buffy can't handle power, how Buffy shouldn't have empowered other girls.
Over and over. Also, when I look back over all of Whedon's work, everything he has done to date, which he had control over...
which include but are not limited to Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse, Alien Resurrection, and his brief time on X-Men. In each of those - it's an adolescent girl or a woman who has been turned into a weapon by men and her power backfires on her, or she is lead to find a better way by the help of some guy or his fatherly guidance (River/Mal, Fray/Demon Watcher, Kitty/Colossus, Illyria (Fred)/Wes, Cordelia/Angel, Jasmine/Connor, Darla/Angel, Echo/Boyd, Echo/(the guy who used to play Helo on BSG)). Even Fray needs a male demon to help her figure out how to use her power, and he of course betrays her and she has to kill him. (The battle in Fray and conflict in Fray is the same as the battle in this comic series. Except it's the Watcher (Giles stand-in) as opposed to her lover.)

The pattern is there and it's not particularly one I want to see.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad you didn't take this post down, it is very interesting and the comments you have received have been fascinating!

It is surprising to me that people who argued that BtVS S8 is not canon are far more invested in the comics than I am (because I did call them canon, and of course now I am not at all sure about that... lol). However I understand what you are going through, because even though I'm not feeling as you are about the BtVS comics, I still haven't gotten over my hatred of JK Rowlings 7th and final Harry Potter book.

After reading Deathly Hollows I ended up feeling that she really wasn't much of a writer and I not only couldn't reread that 7th book, I was finding it impossible to reread any of the previous ones. So I gave away my set of 1st editions..... BUT I found I still liked the movies, and I do plan to see the last two Harry Potter films (and I kind of hope they fix the fatal flaws in that last book).

Anyway I do know what you're going through, it is painful when something/someone you loved disappoints you and damages that love. It can destroy those happy memories... or at least leave them bitter sweet.

{{hugs}}

And I hope the weekend ends up being relaxing and productive (personally I'm home sick w/a cold).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sorry to hear you are sick, hope you get better soon.

I think the movies may benefit from splitting the book into two films. All I really remember of the last book is that it was very long and drug in places.

Canon...ah, I think it's hard to understand how people regard it.
For me? I guess part of me sees them as canon and part does not.
Best way to explain it? The comics were in my view - Whedon's take on what would happen next, how he viewed the story and how he'd continue it. So the fail in the comics...is well all Whedon.
(I'd hoped it was Meltzer or Allie or Jeanty...but no, it's Whedon, I know that now. I can't ignore it or deny it any longer.) The television series - both Angel and Buffy - on the other hand, I don't think were completely Whedon, I think he had less control over it - due to the network, other writers, and the producers and well, the actors and directors who did have an effect. Here - Whedon is in control. So on the canon issue?
This is the canon of Whedon. If that makes sense? Probably doesn't. At any rate - unfortunately for me, I was not just a fan of Buffy, I was also a fan of Joss Whedon. I think if I was only a fan of Buffy - I'd be reacting differently. (shrugs)

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

Two words-- Woody Allen. Don't think I have to explain that one.

One more-- LOST. Loved, loved, loved this show. Then came the ending and...

...I didn't hate it, you know? Yes, technically it worked as one possible ending, but for me using a supernatural solution/explanation just took all the steam out of the project, and I now find I have no desire to watch the DVDs I've collected, and I didn't buy the last season on DVD.

Wanna buy 'em cheep?

But on the other hand, Fringe is getting better and better, so I'm giving J.J. the benefit of the doubt at the mo.

All things must pass.

)))Hugs(((

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh. I'm going to have to either rent or try to watch Fringe in reruns...because I'm getting curious. Too many people on my flist are raving about it. (atp meet shipperx who is a major fan of Fringe).

Yeah, I had a discussion with Momster over the phone about this.
And she told me about Edgar Rice Burroughs who she loved reading as a child. First glimpse of sci-fi and adventure. Also Tarzan.
Her sister told her stories or rather fanfic on the series.
Then she found out Burroughs was racist and that racism was in the books and she saw it, and never re-read. But she remembers them fondly. She says you need to separate your love from the creator and most successful writers tend to be very disturbed people. Look at Hemingway.

So what did you do? I asked. Then paused. And answered my own question much as I did in the post above...yes, of course it will pass but for now...ugh. ;-)

Regarding Lost? Nah. I had similar issues with the final season.
My favorite seasons are the middle two and the first one. The last season and the second or was it the third? didn't quite work.