Buffy season 8...

[shadowkat]

Picked up the latest Buffy issue today from my neighborhood comic shop - Rocketship, which is a pleasure to visit. It's designed more like an art gallery meets book store than your traditional comic shop. No dusty bins of old comics. Everything clearly displayed. Framed underground comics on the walls. With a chair in the corner. I can actually enter it without fear of having an allergy attack.

I ended up reading it while watching The Office (which was a hoot and a half) and 30 Rock (not as funny as usual - I think it had something to do with the added length, situation comedies do not fair well if they are drawn out too long, I've discovered. )

Mixed feelings regarding the issue. Haven't read anyone else's reviews as of yet, so this is my unaffected opinion - in that I haven't a clue what anyone else thought. I think reading others views of something before I offer my own - will often affect how I write it.



Not sure what Whedon is up to here. But he clearly plans to address the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle of doom up front. My hunch is: Whedon will side-step the issue again, and more or less state she loves them both just differently. Either that or establish Angel is her one true love who she can never have - so as a result both characters won't ever move on or *truly* love anyone else - if he does that, then he's more or less fallen into a gothic romance by Laurell K. Hamilton or maybe Nabokov's Lolita meets Xenia Warrior Princess. Can't quite decide which. I'm admittedly biased. I want Buffy with either Xander, Spike, Faith or by her lonesome. Angel? I think his true love is either Spike or Darla. Can't quite decide which. Okay mostly joking there.

The gist? Evil Amy puts Buffy under a spell, so she's in a perpetual nightmare, and can only be woken by true love's kiss. Meanwhile the evil dead are climbing the castle walls. Xander's comments to Amy are priceless and quite funny. I adore Xander. "So, let me get this straight, it can't be a friend who loves her...it has to be someone who is passionately in love with her, and she doesn't have to love them back?" (Well, you could fix that pretty easily - just call up Angel or Spike - assuming of course this isn't taking place after NFA and they aren't dead or worse. And well that they know Spike is alive, which the jury is still out on. Problem with comic books is you never know when the stupid things are taking place in the time line. This is how writers get away with all sorts of weird stuff.) Xander's reaction to the evil dead? "Man, you're really pulling out all the classics on this one Amy." Hee.

The nightmare kiss scene with Xander was a tad confusing - I'm not quite sure when Buffy began dreaming...my guess before the conversation with Xander. Which means some of that bit, which she wasn't privy too, must have happened before she went into dream state?

Found it funny and enlightening. Yep, always figured part of Xander and Buffy's problem was they are both attracted to monsters, because they believe they are monsters themselves and fear destroying those that they are with. Can we say parental issues? Xander is attracted to Buffy because he knows he can't physically hurt her, he won't ever be his father with her. Buffy is not attracted to Xander because she fears she will hurt him, and she's attracted to Spike and Angel because she knows she can't hurt them, that they are equally matched. Plus they are older and in some ways probably represent her unresolved issues regarding her own father and his abandonment of her.

The main reason Buffy and Angel have had problems since S2, is now Buffy believes she can and will destroy Angel just as Angel believes he can and will destroy Buffy - after all that's more or less what happened in Season 2 - so they can't trust themselves with one another or for that matter trust one another period. She can't trust that Angel won't become the evil Angelus and destroy her entire world as he attempted to do and almost accomplished and Angel can't trust that Buffy won't send him to hell. Sort of takes the whole notion of star-crossed to the extreme. Those two get together? The world ends. Or we all die of boredom a la Veronica Mars S3. It's complicated and very psychological. Whedon likes psychological issues - sometimes I think he's a frustrated psychology major, since he seems to dwell on them more than anything else. Whedon's characters spend more time contemplating their own and each others navels than any superheroes I've come across to be honest - which may explain why I enjoy them.

Then there's Dawn. I'm enjoying Dawn. Even though some of the lines regarding her seem odd.
"The feminine hygiene product called Kenny"??? Uhm okay. Maybe my brain is just too fried to read this? But her talk with Xander - was great.

Also enjoyed Giles...even if we saw far too little of him. Whedon seems to use Giles sparingly for some reason. Giles struggling with the tables being turned, now slayers are in the majority, with watchers in the minority.

The central mystery is intriguing. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Amy's boyfriend is a sewn together Caleb. I *really* hope I'm wrong about that. If Spike hadn't ended up on Angel, I would have been worried it was him.



Okay must go to bed now.

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recap. I gave up reading it when a normal conversation with Xander turned into a make-out session with Xander (wtf?) turned into a scene where Xander's head falls off. I was just too confused to continue. I decided to try to find a summary someone else wrote before returning to the episode.

I don't do well with comics, it's hard to follow that kind of truncated narrative.

[(Anonymous)]

You're welcome.

It was a bad transistion even for a comic. I've seen other graphic novelists do it better such as Moore and Miller. Again, I blame Scott Allie - the editor for that one.

The whole thing is meant as a dream sequence, just hard to figure where it starts. I'm guessing before the conversation.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

This was me

[deevalish.livejournal.com]

"The feminine hygiene product called Kenny"???

I read it as "douche bag Kenny". Classy. But it's something Xander would say.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah. Yep - it's something Xander would say not Buffy. The problem I had with this comic and the last comic - is too many of the characters are sounding like Xander (who apparently sounds just like Whedon). Wondering if the other writers and actors toned that tendency down a bit in the series??

[deevalish.livejournal.com]

I'm going to say that, in my mind, for sure the other writers and actors definitely toned down Joss' voice. Which, while I think he has some brilliant stories, his actual tone is not one I have to hear all the time.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I'm glad in a way that this series much like the Angel one that will follow it - will have multiple writers. The Faith arc is being done by Brian K Vauhn and I knew Goddard and Espenson are writing a few. I'll miss Fury and Noxon who I think added a certain layer to the characters the others lack - Fury had a comical darkness and Noxon knew how to do raw emotion.

Whedon's not very good at making his characters sound different from each other. They all use the same slang. Watch Firefly after Buffy some time, and you'll catch the same slang words and speech rhythms at the oddest times.

Granted it's impossible not to do that a bit as a writer. But some writers are better at distinguishing their characters voices than others. And I'm admittedly oversensitive to it - since it's something I'm working hard to overcome in my own writing and dialogue.

[deevalish.livejournal.com]

I'm excited about what the other writers will bring to the table for this comic. That's what I always loved about BtVS or AtS, while they are Joss's stories, the other writers enriched it.

Different character voices are tough to keep straight. I've heard that doing exercises like character bios help but I've yet to try that. I think I just make up quick little mini bios in my head.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Me too. What I liked most about BTVS and aTS was the collaboration.
The successful tv shows are more often than not collaborative ones.
(One of the problems Studio 60 had was the head writer did not trust anyone else to write an episode - he didn't let it be collaborative).
Whedon works very well in a collaborative atmosphere - better than solo, I think. And this series will be collaborative in some ways, just not quite in the same way as the tv series was, if that makes sense - which makes it very interesting to me.

Different character voices are tough to keep straight. I've heard that doing exercises like character bios help but I've yet to try that. I think I just make up quick little mini bios in my head.

Agreed. I'm much the same way. I've tried the character bio exercise - it doesn't work for me. I find it too constraining, I guess - never been good at doing plot outlines either. Instead, I make them up in my head and well my characters tend to form as I'm writing them. I go back after to make sure things are consistent.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure the nightmare is really about Buffy's romantic choices. Even if the kiss is the cure and Amy was being an intelligent misdirecting evil overlord rather than an incredibly dumb one it will identify someone who passionately loves Buffy not whether she reciprocates. Within the dream although the messengers are boyfriend types I think the underlying message may be a more general one about her overreadiness to assume the guilt, the darkness that she and Xander were talking about just before the dream cut in.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Of course, The nightmare isn't about her romantic choices. Actually her romantic choices weren't ever about romance, so much as metaphors for Buffy's current emotional state/journey. The point of the romance was solely where does this take the character and what does it reveal about her. Whedon may be many things, but a romance writer isn't one of them. And don't misunderstand me - that really does not bother me. I'm actually glad he isn't. Because if he was Buffy would have trotted off into the sunset with a Shan-shued Angel by now.

That said, Whedon does have a tendency to travel the same ground repeatedly or rather obsessively. And while it's sort of interesting to explore Buffy's general feelings of guilt, shame, and darkness - it doesn't give me any new insight into the character and still leaves certain items a tad ambiguous.

In short, the writing feels a tad on the lazy side at the moment. He's just going over old ground.

Pt 1

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Whedon has a very good grasp of psychology; it's probably what I like best about him. Yes, the funny and the rest, but it's the psychological issues that keep me coming back. He understands how one's childhood affect the development of personality, and how personality shapes our choices. And we do indeed do the same thing over and over and over, until we learn to recognize and break that pattern.

I totally agree that many of Buffy's issues with men go back to her parents. Going back to the movie, Buffy had little contact with her social, successful parents growing up. That craving for attention and affection and the shallowness of her parents' lives contributed to her own shallowness, desire for approval, and underlying anger at them, turned to herself. She is a success by their standards, popular, pretty and social, and then everything changes, and she must ask herself if her parents would still accept her if she is unkept, unlady-like, and solitary. She hides all the changes as much as she can, and when she can't handle the contradiction between her two lives any more she tells her parents, who institutionalize her until she recants her stories about vampires, violence and death.

Fortunately for Buffy the changes in her life end up making her closer to her mother, and she discovers that for all her mother's failings, her mother loves her beyond words, and that gives her some confidence, although not enough during the worst times she goes through. When her mother dies and her father abandons her she becomes utterly overwhelmed by her new responsibilities, that she doesn't have the self-confidence and self-respect to overcome. She instigates a relationship with the one man--much older--who she knows will never reject her, who is obsessed with her. And that helps for a while, but the underlying issues are still there and still reoccur whenever something new comes up.

With Spike she has the approval and love she craves, but it's deeply unsatisfying for several reasons. First, it is not the love of her father. She's an adult and can never go back and get the love she needed as a child. Even if Hank did come back and did everything she wanted, it wouldn't change the past, or eradicate the hurt of his neglect. Secondly, she knows his approval and love are at least partially illusions, based not on her personality but instead on his needs. His love isn't real, his approval worthless, and in the end she is left with the same fears and longing for love. Thirdly, Spike is an eternal adolescent, a vampire, and will never change himself. (Of course he did, but for psychologically sound reasons. It would be impossible for him to decide to change his motivations (he is unaware of them), but he could change for other reasons--the same reasons he became obsessed with her in the first place, a need for a strong woman.)

Re: Pt 2

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

So over and over, Buffy seeks love and approval. Angel loves her but must abandon her too for practical reasons. (And Angel has issues too, that make him repeat his own patterns.) Parker is a pig, leaving her questioning herself instead of giving him the beating he needed. (Although Cavewoman!Buffy did the job--no emotional conflicts there.) Riley, like her parents, is not quite able to accept her as she is, strong and vulnerable both, leading to their eventual break-up. Then Spike, who is unsatisfying for reasons already mentioned. In the comic, she is post-Season 7 and has resolved many of her old issues. She's accepted the past, forgiven those who've harmed her (I think), and now must figure out what to do, and how to do it, while mothering Dawn.

What now? Learning how to apply the lessons life's taught her, trying to overcome old habits, which is terribly difficult and usually involved much back-sliding, and trying to learn how to live up to her potential, now that some of her old barriers are gone. Now is when she learns what she is capable of, how far she can go. And what is in her heart, suffocated for so long by her fears and needs.

I am so looking forward to more of this comic. I don't think she'll revert or reverse much--Xander is her friend, Spike and Angel are in the past, at least for a little while, and she's ready to move forward, wherever that goes. I agree that it's fabulous to be able to hear her thoughts. Season 7 was so tough because her thoughts had to have been very much at odds with what she was actually doing.

Re: Pt 2

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't know, on the fence.

Will wait and see. The good bit is that Buffy is only six issues, then we switch to Faith for six issues, and maybe another character.

To add to your analysis - you left out or skimmed over Angel, who was the stand-in for Hank not Spike. Spike was basically the person who she felt would never reject her and in S7 - unconditional love. But unsatisfying for many of the reasons you mention. I think he grows more than Angel does or can, because of the two Angel is forever trapped by his own Daddy issues. It's what Buffy and Angel have in common Daddy issues. Both need Daddy's approval. Both can never achieve it of course, which is symbolized partly by their attraction to each other and inability to ever be together.

The problem with Angel was he represented for Buffy all her issues with Hank. Re-watch the scene from Nightmares and compare it to the scene from Innocence - Hank and Angel more or less say some of the same things. Then compare - Buffy's birthdays with Hank - going to ice capades to her ice skating date with Angel, because Daddy is no longer there. She retreats to LA - where Daddy is, but not to Daddy, when Angel is sent to Hell.

I always find it odd that Angel fans don't see that. It's so obvious.

Re: Pt 2

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Yes, Spike could and did change. It's his saving grace, in a way, something Angel's not as good at. Angel goes on repeating his own patterns endlessly, but Spike was able to do what others couldn't; he forgave his mother for what she said as a vampire, and implicitly what she did as a human, smothering him yet giving him the attention he craved, after all he didn't have a father. And that's another essay, to figure out Spike's feelings towards his father. But to do that we'd only need to see his relationship with other men, and especially how he treated Giles in Tabla Rasa. Back to his mother--in Season 5 Angel he seemed to have settled that problem to an extent. Spike was able to change because he was able to forgive his mother and accept himself. He might, ironically, be able to do that because of his mother. The more sensitive a child is, the harder he'll try to adapt to please others, thereby forcing the child to squash his own needs to satisfy the emotional needs of his parent(s). Even having one sympathetic parent makes a difference, and for all of her problems Spike's mother was very sympathetic to him. She gave him enough love to create a core of self-confidence in himself.

I could write pages on Angel's father issues and how it affected his relationships. I agree, it's very obvious that Angel stands in for Buffy's father emotionally, that her interest in an older man is no coincidence; she's looking for the love and attention she didn't get as a child. Every child who's even somewhat unloved and/or neglected goes through this, although they can't admit it because then they would be admitting they were unloved. And if they admit that they'll have to give up on getting that love, a terrible and terribly hard thing to do. But adults can't ever go back, and have to let that go (as your earlier poem said). You just have to let it go, mourn the loss, and move on. People who identify with that need for parental approval that they'll never get in the way they want might have a hard time admitting to themself that Buffy's relationship with Angel, as special as it was, was built on need as much as love.

I didn't know that about the comic. Faith, huh? That'll be so cool. She *really* has issues!

Re: Pt 2

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes. The comics are split into segments or mini series arcs. Whedon is writing the first 6 or 8 issues. Then Brian K. Vauhn takes over and writes a six comic arc for Faith - including the same characters, with Faith journeying from Cleveland to England and it's supposed to be very dark, since that's Vahn's style. Next up I think is Espenson and Goodard.
Each arc will focus on a different character. It will run for 30 issues.

Then Whedon is co-writing/co-helming this summer an Angel S6 with Brian Lynch, who is currently writing some amazing Spike comics - Spike:Asylum
and Spike:Shadow Puppets - the art in those puts the above comic to shame.
It's *really* good and the writing - perfect. Lynch nails the noir aspects of the Angelverse.

People keep saying Spike had no father. How do you know? It's never really stated one way or the other. He could have had one and the guy just wasn't around very much or died before his mother did. His mother was hardly young and was sick with TB, dying from it. More than likely his father did as well. We aren't told. Outside of that one quibble, I agree with your analysis of Spike.

I also agree - one of the reasons I read Whedon is I like the psychological analysis. Am a frustrated psychology major myself...sometimes I think. Stories that focus on the psyche's of their characters or explore the psychological bits - intrigue me more than those that don't. Yep, I Could write reams on both Angel and Spike (wait, I already have, haven't I? LOL!).

No, I like the comics more or less. Have really low expectations...which helps. Sorry if any of this came off snarky, been irritible today. It was a good analysis - I enjoyed reading it.

Re: Pt 2

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :) We've written a lot, but there's more to write, lol.

Yes, I have pretty low expectations too, simply because comics are so short.

About Spike, I assume his father hasn't been around for a while because Spike is so close to his mother. Of course he'll have had a father in the social circles he moved in. I like the idea that he died of tb, that makes sense, but who knows? But you're right, that's just an assumption that I haven't thought about a great deal. It's worth figuring out, though.

Re: Pt 2

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping the writers will reveal it at some point.

My theory? I think he had a father and possibly a few siblings. Just because he's devoted to his mother, does not mean the others don't exist. Whedon after all was completely devoted to his mother, a real "momma's" boy and had a couple of brothers and a father.

Also Angel - remember had two parents, but we get almost no information on his mother. She's barely seen or referenced. Any more than Wesely's is for that matter. He also had siblings. We only see his little sister who names him. His focus was on pleasing his father - so we dwell mainly on that.
Whedon sort of split the two issues between Spike and Angel. Spike = Mother issues. Angel = Father issues. But at the same times, did explore via their relationships with other characters - mother, sibling, father issues. Their relationships with each other - Dru and Darla - are very telling and the fact that both vampires stayed in that group as long as they did does reveal something.

So I think his father could have done one of the following:
1. Died of a disease or even abroad - it is the Victorian Age, he could have been an officer in India for all we know. Or died of TB for that matter - which would have been ironic.
2. Divorced his wife and married someone else - also possible during the Victorian Age. And fits what happened to Buffy. Buffy after all had a father - he just left her.
3. Just left.

As for sibilings?
They could have died of disease. They may not exist (we don't know - nothing concrete on that). Or they could be much older and elsewhere. If brothers - would make sense they aren't around.

Re: Pt 2

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

And sisters could have married and left home. In fact, men who grow up surrounded by sisters tend to feel very at home around women, and understand them better than men without sisters. Sisters wouldn't change the dynamic between Spike and his mother, who is dependent on him in many ways.

If I remember correctly, one had to apply to the government (state religion, after all) to get permission to divorce, and that would have been a great scandal. Anne didn't strike me as strong enough to do that. Of course her husband could have just left her, as men often did in those times. And that might explain why Anne clung so much to Spike, better than death even. Plus Spike's reaction to the idea that Giles was his father was very negative. He assumed Giles was going through a mid-life crisis, complete with shiny car and young girlfriend. His father could have gone to India as an officer or to run a tea plantation or work for the British governemt there, or ru noff to Paris with an opera singer, for all we know, lol. Or just died of a disease. Based on his reaction to Angelus, I'm guessing Spike didn't have brothers, though. He was very enamoured of Angelus' manliness, and that might mean he wasn't accustomed to having a man to look up to. (Pure specualtion,of course.)

Re: Pt 2

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What you stated above seems to be the general consensus. Most if not the majority of Spike fanfic writers and essayists have determined he had sisters (possibly three - no idea why that number) and a father who either left them or died.

There is evidence in the series that leads one to believe this was the case. His relationship with both Dawn and Willow. How he handles women. Men raised with sisters - tend to be better with women for some reason or more comfortable with them, I've discovered. Also it fits with the fact that Buffy got involved with Spike after Dawn's entrance into the plot. Whedon has a tendency to like to parallel character relationships.

So I think you're theory above is probably what happened.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Probably should apologise first for starting off on a contrary foot yesterday but I can't seem to get off it. A lot of people were commenting below about how dificult to read Buffy was in S7 but the only ambiguity I could see related to her feelings for Spike. If Spike's your character I can see how that might be frustrating but it was never that bothersome to me. I found the relationship fascinating but never needed to know how it might end.

I think Whedon is setting up something new about the "darkness." I don't think it's interesting that Buffy has a dark side per se but have always been fascinted by the way the series explored the specific forms that darkness took, instead of leaving it as some kind of Jungian black box. In S7 her darkness wasn't her guilt so much as her being disconnected, unique, alone. Now she's changed all that but still has to cope with the consequences, she changed the world along with her own position in it. I'm interested in seeing how that responsibility affects her.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Buffy was harder to read in S7 - but not impossible to read. But harder. I more or less knew what she was feeling - wrote five essays on it. All of which were more or less in line with the writers views according to interviews and commentaries. (What can I say? I had way too much time on my hands in 2002 and 2003.)

At any rate, I think most of the reactions you are seeing relating to Buffy in S7 (which by the way was amongst my favorite seasons - I prefer it to S2 and S3 which admittedly might have been tighter but were less ambiguous and less experimental, I'm amongst the very few who feel that way and I adored the ambiguos nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship in that season - it fascinated me. I preferred it to the unambiguous/anvil laden B/A romance. Give me a little ambiguity in my romances, please.) - but the people who did not like S7 aren't upset with how Spike was treated. Or how she responded to him. They missed the happy, light, Buffy. One who smiled, joked, laughed - said "Beep me - if it is the apocalypse!" They miss the humor. They also miss the emotion - the Buffy who collasped against the wall, burst into tears, laughed her head off - made the funny quips. Really had very little to do with Spike. In fact, you could easily have switched Spike with Riley or Angel - and people would have felt the same.

I don't dislike the comic. I just think it is flawed and doesn't quite work in places. Some of the dialogue throws me off - and I'm unclear right now how much of it is a dream. Ann1962 posted an interesting theory that everything after the last scene with the General is a dream, including the bedroom sequence with Xander, the slayers, Amy, and the evil dead climbing the walls. Which is actually a theory - I like a great deal. Because it would explain some of the weird inconsistencies - that jarred me while reading it. Read her post - she does a good job of pointing them out.
(And Ann1962 is *not* a shipper in any way shape or form or for that matter a Spike fan. In fact most of the critiques I've read about the comic are from non-Spike fans.)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I like Spike. I do. But as far as Buffy goes I paradoxically find less demonstrative characters easier to read, it's as if the big loud emotional displays blare out all the underlying subtleties. It's often hard to remember that it works differently for other people, many of whom disliked S7 as you say.

I quite liked Ann's idea although I didn't find the specific inconsistencies she cited inconsistent. But I think, as a non-comic reader, the thing I enjoyed about this one was how off kilter it made me. My problem with the previous issue was how quickly it went by, it was hard to get very invested but this one I had to keep skipping back to confirm that what I thought I was reading was actually happening and I'm still not sure. It's been such a long time the series was over that I'd forgotten the sheer excitement of not knowing what to make of things, what might happen, that Whedon is not a safe writer. It's all rather giddy making.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

But as far as Buffy goes I paradoxically find less demonstrative characters easier to read, it's as if the big loud emotional displays blare out all the underlying subtleties. It's often hard to remember that it works differently for other people, many of whom disliked S7 as you say.

It is hard to remember. I've been thinking about that a lot. How people just plain think and see things differently, no matter how many interests or values they may have in common. We all forget this, I think - assuming everyone is seeing it more or less the same way.
And it's sooo frustrating when they don't. For example - I've fallen in love with the Dresden Files and adore Paul Blackthorn's performance, but am clearly in the minority - the frustration is that I know it will be cancelled in favor of a tv show and performances that do nothing for me and do not work for me - such as Doctor Who or a series like Star-Gate.

Buffy was much the same way - I think. I remember getting into heated debates with people way back in 2003 regarding the acting. A lot of people said that the actors were phoning it in in S7. They weren't emoting as much and were more restrained. Quite a few fans in fact, believed that James Marsters was a better actor in the earlier seasons, when he was more demonstrative and less restrained. Marsters would *completely* disagree - stating he was far too theaterical and projected too much for the screen and that his performance was actually the best in S7 BTVS and S5 ATS, and that the earlier work, such as Fool For Love makes him cringe. Who's right? No one. It's what works for you. Like you state above. They are just different approachs or styles.

It becomes frustrating when the majority likes a style I don't like, because of course that's the one that will win. Usually it is the more restrained, almost stoic style - at least lately. The character barely twitchs a la Emily Deschanel on Bones or David Boreanze. I need more than a twitch, otherwise in my view I'm watching pretty statues walk across the screen. OTOH - I hate it when they ham it up or go way over the top. Balance - it's all about balance.

But I think, as a non-comic reader, the thing I enjoyed about this one was how off kilter it made me. My problem with the previous issue was how quickly it went by, it was hard to get very invested but this one I had to keep skipping back to confirm that what I thought I was reading was actually happening and I'm still not sure. It's been such a long time the series was over that I'd forgotten the sheer excitement of not knowing what to make of things, what might happen, that Whedon is not a safe writer. It's all rather giddy making.

I'd agree, it is the aspect of the story I've always liked. The ambiguity. The little touches. Makes the analytical part of me jump up and down for joy and it is one of the many reasons I'm still in love with Buffy..

The good comic books are actually like this. There's several that are not clear cut - you just need to know what to look for. It's like any medium - there's great stuff, ho-hum, and interesting. Not unlike tv in that way. ;-)

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I think this is going to be awesome when we have all the issues of the arc together and can read them at once but now it's just frustrating. The spell set up is a reflection of her past two relationships and a bit of late Angel: the other person has to be passionate about her but she doesn't have to return the feelings, it also allows for an entirely new character to pop in. I just feel that Joss is having a bit of fun teasing the shippers of various stripes - the dream figure could be Spike! could be Angel! her dream could suggest that she and Xander have kissed before! At this point though I'd like to actually get to know Buffy's feelings, give me closure, give me insight, but whatever it is give me something concrete. I've missed her for a long time, including a lot of s7, so I'd like to figure out more where she's at. I think Joss is heading towards giving us something about her internal state and the romance is a mislead, but it's feeling very coy right now and that's annoying.

I confess what I really don't want is Buffy/Xander. Yikes! I thought Restless' "brother" moment really put the end to anything romantic between them and it freaked me out to see that dream bit. We all have our biases.

Like I said, I'm sure this is leading to something very different than what we're speculating but these month-long waits in between make for a maddening ride. IF only I were strong enough to wait for the trades, but I'm weak! So very weak!

The dialogue throughout was incredibly good, whatever else may bug me Xander's lines were consistently awesome.

[rahirah]

Something that struck me today (and which may tie into why some people feel that the comic feels like fanfic) is that in comic books, there's a strong tradition of thought balloons. A good artist can convey a heck of a lot in a picture, but of necessity, a comic book can't be as flexible in conveying emotion visibly as a human actor in realtime can. Hence, thought balloons, to cue us in on the characters' inner lives.

But in trying to make up for the limitations of the art in conveying emotion, thought balloons can become far more revealing than the tightest closeup. This is the first time in ages that we get to see what Buffy is thinking. We got more of it in the early seasons when she'd talk to Willow, Giles, or her mother, but as she grew increasingly isolated in later seasons, what Buffy really thinks about anything became more and more of a mystery.

In some ways, being forced to open the character up to the audience a little is probably a good thing. For the audience, that is. Not necessarily for Joss, who seems to be very reluctant to give up his will she/won't she, does she/doesn't she dance regarding her love life. I agree that Joss isn't interested in that love life per se, but I think he realizes that a lot of his audience is, and therefore he'll fan dance for as long as possible.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agree with your assessment.

I'm enjoying the thought balloons - because it allows me more insight into Buffy, who became very hard to read in the latter seasons. Also insight into Giles. Xander - note - we don't get as many on, because he's more or less an open-book.

You are absolutely right about Whedon. Whedon's only interested in the love life to the extent that it provides him with a means of exploring character relationships and psychological issues, not to mention key plot points. Outside of that? Not so much. I honestly don't see him giving us a response on the will she/won't she - because doing so would unfortunately piss off half his fanbase. Damn those B/A shippers - they just can't let go. (Just joking - I think I may be the only one who actually reads the letters page in the comics, and there's always seems to be at least one letter from a B/A shipper. None from B/S or B/X or B/? shippers but B/A? Always.)

[rahirah]

At this point, I'd just as soon that Joss put on his big girl panties and pissed off half his audience, no matter which half it is. Or go with Xander, or nobody, and piss off both halves! Do it up well!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It annoys me when writers cater and dance to their readers/audience's whim. Do what is *best* for the story and ignore the fanbase. It worries me that he cares what his fans think. Who cares if you piss off your fans? Story comes first. Fans second. Or they aren't real fans.

The biggest sin a writer can make is to sacrifice story to appease fans. Annoys me to no end.

Nodding in agreement

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

At this point though I'd like to actually get to know Buffy's feelings, give me closure, give me insight, but whatever it is give me something concrete.

That's my problem as well. Right now, I feel like we're going over the same ground and exploring the same themes we did in S7. The Buffy/Dawn/Xander relationship. Buffy's fears of darkness and guilt. Dealing with tons of slayers.

Agree with your synopsis on the dream. (Am wondering though if I'm the only one who reads the letters page? Not that I'd highly recommend. There's a horrid letter by a B/A shipper who sounds all of 12 named Katey - but the editor's response was interesting. He stated Spike and Angel were showing up and there was an image that would be burned in your brain next issue that no one wants to miss. That spoiler worries me. Because while I want closure and insight, I don't want to retread the same ground again. Whedon has an annoying habit of flogging dead horses thematically speaking. B/A has been done to death now, there's nothing else to explore there, no new insights - yes, we know Buffy loves Angel, yes we know Angel loves Buffy, yes we know they can't live together, yes we know they both feel guilty and horrible about it. What else is there to say? I want to revisit it? I can re-watch S1-7. Spike on the other hand - I remain unclear what her feelings are for him. You can pretty much make a strong case for any number of scenarios - that's why I find it interesting. Also she thinks he's dead and I'm curious to know how she'd react if he were still alive. And did not tell her he was alive. What would that mean to her? I know what I think it would mean, but not sure what Whedon does. )

I've missed her for a long time, including a lot of s7, so I'd like to figure out more where she's at. I think Joss is heading towards giving us something about her internal state and the romance is a mislead, but it's feeling very coy right now and that's annoying.

Also agree. That's really my frustration with it in a nutshell. I want to know where she's at. Ever since her Mom died, Buffy has sort of shut down.
Pulled back from everyone. I'm not really sure what she feels for any of these people except well guilt and fear of being too dark...which we sort of discussed already in S7.

I confess what I really don't want is Buffy/Xander. Yikes! I thought Restless' "brother" moment really put the end to anything romantic between them and it freaked me out to see that dream bit. We all have our biases.

Not crazy about that romance myself to be honest. Explained above why I can't see it working. I also don't see Whedon going there, because it breaks a big-time rule regarding these types of stories - never ever put the sidekicks in a romance with the hero/heroine - if you do, you've more or less frozen your options. And Whedon is a big follower of that rule. On the other hand, it would be a lot more interesting to explore than going back to B/A for the upteenth time. Why? It's new ground. Hasn't been done yet. But I'm not too worried. Whedon would have to be a fool to do B/A again. He said it in an interview recently:"There's only so much you can say about what if Romeo and Juliet had lived." Exactly. That's why Shakespeare wisely killed them.

Like I said, I'm sure this is leading to something very different than what we're speculating but these month-long waits in between make for a maddening ride. IF only I were strong enough to wait for the trades, but I'm weak! So very weak!

Me too! Me too! Sigh. I'm on a frigging subscription list for them. Damn Whedon.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Great insight on why Buffy wouldnd't want to be with Xander, even though I think the main reason is the lack of interest. Lovely review. This was an anjoyable issue, except for the art, it wasn't as good as issue one.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm more or less in agreement. There's three reasons Xander/Buffy will never get together:

1. Lack of interest on the writer's part - the writer more or less told us how he saw the two characters. And considers himself Xander, so getting Buffy would be too incestuous for him.
2. Breaks the rule - you never ever put your sidekick and hero/heroine together without major league consequences. Cordy/Angel? Knew she was dead the moment it happened. It freezes up your options storywise. And limits the number of new players you can put into the mix.
3. What I said above, which is basically the writer providing us with insight into the characters.

Agree on the art - the first issue had better art overall. But I liked the story and dialogue better in this one.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

talimama posted (under another name) over at Whedonesque and pointed out that:
"I'm totally expecting Joss to subvert our genre expectations here. Come on, does anybody really expect Buffy to be "saved" by some guy's kiss?"

I'm thinking she is right on the nose: the fans have a tendency to keep thinking that BtVS is all about Spike, or all about Angel, or all about who Buffy will love and eventually marry; forgetting that SHE is the hero. It would be terrible if she really is going to lie there like Sleeping Beauty (the lamest Fairy tale Princess there ever was) waiting for true love's kiss!

But I would love it if Giant Dawny comes over the hill to help take Amy down.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know the kiss is a mislead. I can tell right now what's going to happen. Buffy will have her nightmare, find her way out of it and save herself or Willow will take Amy down and kick ass. Methinks I've read too much Whedon, I'm starting to predict the twists and turns.

He more or less established that Buffy wasn't going to be saved by true love's kiss in the discussion with Xander. That's only there to explore Xander's feelings for Buffy. Note Amy's comment: "Want to give it a whirl Xander?" And her statement - "no the guy can't just have brotherly or friendship feelings for her" - in short, Xander if you kiss her and it breaks, you clearly have feelings for her. Big time risk. The other reason it is there - is well exploring Buffy's feelings of loneliness brought up in the last issue and the missing of the sex.

My post above isn't really about that. So much as it is about a disturbing bit I read in a letters page. Apparently I'm the only one who reads that?

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

People have commented about those letters at Whedonesque, and in fact some touches of the old shipper wars were breaking out there as well. I don't even like to respond or comment on any of that. I got beaten down too many times by the closed minds and over-the-top reactions back during season 6 (actually the worst to me was the summer after season 6). So, yeah, I can see that that is what you were really touching on all of that (actually I think it is smart of Joss to bring out that issue at the beginning and then remind everyone that the hero is Buffy).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That and my foul mood which I put down to heartburn, pms and irritation on real life issues.

It's not the letter in of itself that is annoying so much as the response to it, and the fact that every time you read a comic or fan mag on the Buffy verse - you only see letter from B/A shippers - plus the Fox people market the heck out of that ship. I think it's the marketing that gets on my nerves, it feels as if they are dictating to the writers what to do - and trust me, that does happen quite a bit. I feel like Whedon has catered to that machine and I find it annoying. So it's not the ship that bugs me so much as the fact that the marketing machine sees the comics as well: The B/A romance and a teen girl show. Katey sounds like a sixteen year old.

I think that more than anything else may be what people are responding to.
It's the whole - 20th Century Fox wants me to support this ship? They can go **** themselves.

And Whedon does cater to fans much more than I'd like.

I like the fact he's dealing with it now and in a dreamscape/nightmare as opposed to in real time. It's a good way to tackle the issue head-on. It's not like he could ignore it - since every interviewer down the pike asked him the same question: "Are we going to see Spike and Angel?" "Is Buffy going to be reunited with her one true love Angel?" Again the frigging marketing machine at work. So Whedon's response? The dream sequence.

I just wish he'd come out and say, Buffy is no longer in love with Angel. She cares about him, he'll always have a place in her heart as her first love but they've both moved on. But the marketing machine and Fox which owns the rights, probably won't let him. That's what I keep seeing. I hope I'm wrong.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Never worry about being bad-moody, this is your lj and you have a right to have it reflect your moods (god knows I am frequently irritable or outright angry). I was interested in your theory that the marketing people were propagating the theory that Angel was Buffy's one true love (that is so lame, who has a 'one true love'? It only happens in the cheapest of Harlequin romances), and I think I can see that you are right. It is so easy to just not bother to understand the characters and want to take the simplest most mundane story line (one I don't think Joss will ever revert to, at least I hope not). Marketing people usually just glance over a few obvious points and then don't bother to learn anything more about it (getting it all wrong as a result).

Of course JKR is going for the obvious/simplistic route for her main characters, but she wants to pair them off for a happily ever after where they can all be a part of the same warm extended family. But I don't expect Joss to feel that it is necessary to resort to that. Buffy doesn't need to be married to and/or related to her friends to feel closer to them.

Anyway, the person causing the trouble over at Whedonesque was also a B/A shipper, beating the 'Spike as rapist' dead horse. This is why I avoided most of the fan sites and would only visit sights which were free of the B/A crap. Not that I want Buffy to marry Spike either (personally I never found their sex to be that romantic, it was sexy...but not IMO romantic. Of course I'm thinking about that disgusting quickly out by the dumpster behind the Doublemeat Palace! LOL). Personally I don't think a dream about Xander is that surprising: and I loved the way that the drawing got more cartoony as it became more obviously a dream.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was interested in your theory that the marketing people were propagating the theory that Angel was Buffy's one true love \

This is the reason I won't buy any of the Buffy merchandise, Fox authorized novelizations by Nancy Holder et all, etc. All of them without exception promote the B/A romance as true love - not just true love, but the true love to beat all true loves. The teen girl's dream. If you want to write a novel based on Buffy and get it published - the rules state that you have to keep her feelings for Spike ambiguous and show she loves Angel still. I kid you not. This is not by the way Whedon's dictate - it is Fox's. Want to know why Whedon never got an emmy? Why Buffy wasn't taken seriously? Because it was marketed to teen girls solely. It's all about how the thing is packaged. Check the packaging - S7 - they have Buffy kissing Angel on the box? Wtf?? It was a ten second scene. Cordy kisses Angel in Angel S5 - but it is not on the packaging. Spike kisses her - not on the packaging. Fan mags? Same deal. The interviewers? all B/A shippers.

Of course JKR is going for the obvious/simplistic route for her main characters, but she wants to pair them off for a happily ever after where they can all be a part of the same warm extended family.

You mean Harry Potter? Oh I wouldn't count on that. Two main characters are slated to die, beloved characters, in the last book.
I would not put it past Rowlings, who is now a multi-billionaire to kill Hermoine, Harry, Ginny, or Ron off just for kicks.

Anyway, the person causing the trouble over at Whedonesque was also a B/A shipper, beating the 'Spike as rapist' dead horse.

Gee why doesn't that surprise me? I swear they give Buffy fans a bad name.

I always laugh when people go on and on about Spike as a rapist. Because they are forgetting a few key things:1) Spike did not go through with it, she got him off her. So, he did not commit rape - in fact he didn't do anything worse than Angelus did. 2) he did not try to kill her or attempt it again - he definitely could have, she had no weapons and was completely vulnerable in that bathroom. 3) he went to get a soul immediately afterward to ensure he wouldn't do it again and spent the first five episodes of the seventh season beating himself to a pulp over it (Willow had to curse Angelus with one, twice)- which is more remorse than Angel ever showed for his behavior towards Buffy in S2 - all we got was Amends and in that episode he was only upset about what he did to Jenny.

I mean the writers literally hit us over the head with how bad a dude Angelus - that's why Angel is cursed, it wasn't Angelus is bad, Angel is good. It's Angelus is Angel without a conscience otherwise the story isn't that interesting and Angel's quest for redemption is pointless.

This is why I avoided most of the fan sites and would only visit sights which were free of the B/A crap.

Every popular fan board was run by Angelshippers and B/A shippers. Half my flist is B/A and Angel shippers. Annoying. Several of them really hate Spike and hated Spuffy even more. I wonder at times what they've been smoking and I'm certain they wonder the same thing about me.

Not that I want Buffy to marry Spike either (personally I never found their sex to be that romantic, it was sexy...but not IMO romantic.

I think that's what I liked about it. I've got to confess, I'm not a fan of romance. Don't like the sappy stuff, find it silly and fake.
And have long since grown bored of romance novels. I like spark, banter, and foreplay in my fiction and fantasy. Seduction. Fighting.
In my *fantasy* not reality. I keep the two separate.

I'm not interested in seeing Buffy marry anyone. I don't want to watch or read the adventures of Buffy and her hubby and kids. I can't identify with it and would like to have at least one story that does not end with girl becoming a wife and mother. Why not let her live a single life? Why does she have to have a man to be happy? Or sex?
You don't need those things. People are so silly. They think a character is miserable if they don't have a hubby and kids or a wife and kids. Trust me, they aren't. Sometimes you are happier without them.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oops dropped a tag on that last part. Everything after IMO romantic is me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And so is the bit about fanboards. Ugh. Stupid LJ.

Must go eat now.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Oh I understood what you were saying (and tags are always tricky)...
I knew that Joss had put a rule that the novels and comics couldn't go beyond season 5 (because he didn't want them screwing up stuff and confusing the audience), but I didn't know that Fox was responsible for all the stupid B/A shipping! Of course the books were mostly unreadable anyway. I liked Nancy Holder's 'These Our Actors' (Buffy isn't even in it, Willow is solving a problem and gets Spike to help her, it is a fun story), and Chris Golden's book about Oz's quest to conquer his werewolf problem, which was really a fun book. But those got to explore minor characters which works better, in most books they had to have the book end in pretty much exactly the place it began (without effecting anyone's life) so along w/the poor writing they weren't any fun.

And I never belonged to the Bronze Beta or any of the cool fanboards, I just couldn't bear putting up with daily Spike bashing (which seemed to go with the territory). I don't see why people can't relax and enjoy the story being told, why would they want a rehash of the story that has already been told? In my own life I never day dreamed about getting back with my ex, I always wanted to find someone new (without all the old angst and problems of the past). But obviously I'm also someone who has been content to be alone, and I never wanted children (so I guess I was what most people consider selfish or abnormal anyway).

Regarding Harry Potter: I'm suspecting JKR's recent interviews to be misdirects... I'm expecting Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny to all survive with definite 'happily ever after' tendencies (and I'm expecting JKR to kill off Snape in a blaze of redemptive glory making everyone realize that Dumbledor was right to trust him all along). But we shall see in July!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You're probably right on Harry Potter - I have to admit I have low expectations. The books are fun, but I forget them more or less after I read them. Much prefer Butcher's Harry Dresden - whose writing, while less popular, is better and more interesting.

I didn't belong to the Bronze Beta either - it was too chatty and went far too fast. Not a chatter. Never have been. The writers of the series adored it though and I worried that it influenced what they wrote - it didn't thank heavens. I did however belong to two popular ones - mainly because I liked reading essays and writing them - and found character centric fanboards limiting in scope. I was the rare fan who loved all the characters and was obsessed with analyzing all of them. Started with Giles on BC&S (that one is lost), then Xander - because the board was crammed with Spike debates/essays and I wanted to try something different.

A lot of fans online - really weren't interested in the story Whedon wanted to tell - they were interested in the story in their heads. It happens, particularly with long breaks and hiatuses. Several for reasons I'll never understand - basically wanted the Buffy/Angel adventures - pretty people in costumes, kissing, and killing monsters with funky quips, and safe in each other's arms at the end of the day. (Sort of like Doctor Who except with kissage and well sex). The writers tried that by the way, the ratings dipped, people got bored and drifted away. They turned Angel into Angelus - the ratings soared, and they got write-ups. Lesson learned. Ignore the fans.

Same thing happened on Veronica Mars - the online fans wrote fanfic and begged and pleaded for the VM/Logan show. They got the VM/Logan show and got bored and drifted away.

Whedon is absolutely right - don't give your fans what they want. Give them what they need. Angst. Pain. Anticipation. Foreplay.
Otherwise they'll grow fickle and leave you.

People think they would have loved seeing on screen their fantasies = not necessarily true. (Okay, I did see on screen my fantasy and adored it...not sure what that says about me. ;-) Except maybe my fantasy isn't as lame and predictable as most fans? Sorry that was snippy. LOL!)

Also a lot of fans were under the odd impression that they were watching Scooby Doo mysteries or Charmed or a dark version of Seventh Heaven (which come to think of it, might have been fun) or Supernatural or even the X-Files. They had gotten used to formula television and a lot of tv is like that. The actors grow older but the format and setting and story stays the same. Can't really do that with a show that starts in high school - folks grow up.

And of course there are the fans who wish it ended in the fifth season who see that as a perfect arc and think the last two seasons ruined everything.

I've had to deal with all of them and made friends with several of them. Used to bicker endlessly with them over it until we more or less drew a truce and admitted, heck it's just a tv series. If you don't like it? Don't buy the DVDs.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I just finished rereading Harry Potter (prep work for the final book coming out in July) and I couldn't believe how much of 'Half Blood Prince' I didn't even remember (I read it through way too fast). I enjoyed it much more this time, the annoying stuff didn't even seem to be such a big deal this time.

But now I've just started reading 'White Knight' (the latest Dresden) and it is wonderful, right from the beginning it really is working for me. But of course it is less of a kids book, and that makes a huge difference.

"People think they would have loved seeing on screen their fantasies = not necessarily true. (Okay, I did see on screen my fantasy and adored it...not sure what that says about me. ;-) Except maybe my fantasy isn't as lame and predictable as most fans?"

Wait...what? What was your fantasy on the screen? Did it happen in Buffy? Inquiring minds want to know! LOL

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! I'd think you'd have guessed what my fantasy was...

Basically the entire Buffy/Spike arc. Hence the reason I got so obsessed.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

ah, I actually figured it was that...
and I have to agree. I was the most invested in Spike's redemptive arc (so his death in a blaze of glory was just the fulfillment of my hopes for him) but I did love that Buffy had come to trust him (both at the end of S5, and even more by the end of S7).

I've always been very keen on my black sheep getting accepted.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. Me as well. I think I was more invested in Spike's journey than really S/B or even Buffy's for that matter, which is sort of interesting. I found his journey more unpredictable and thrilling. I knew where Buffy was going to end up from the first Season, no mystery there. But Spike? Had no clue what they were going to do with him - which was why I ended up on a spoiler board for a while in S6. Because I honestly did not know. They could have taken that character any number of directions - all would have worked. I loved the one they chose and was *very* satisfied by it.

Thanks much!

[(Anonymous)]

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G'night