From my correspondence list...

[shadowkat]

Picked up the following bits from my scan/read of my flist.

1. Cool Book Meme via petzepillingo



Paperback, hardback or trade paperback?

* The small Paperbacks - easier to read, I can cart them literally anywhere, they fit in pockets and purses, aren't heavy, and when you spend most of your time reading on subways or on the move this is a necessity. Plus do not take up much space on my bookshelf. And they are cheaper than the bigger paperback and hardcover novels. I own very few hard-cover and only buy them when necessary - ie, don't want to wait for the paperback to come out or its the sort of book that just has to be hardcover - ie - Gray's Anatomy or "Gotham: A History of New York".

Amazon or brick and mortar?

Book stores - if that is what you mean by brick and mortar. True you can get anything from Amazon. But I like to hold a book in my hands, flip through the pages, check out random paragraphs, and stand in the store and read a chapter or two before I buy it. Also, getting deliveries at my humble abode is a nightmare. Plus I love the spontaneity of wandering in a book store and just browsing, letting the book choose you as opposed to you choosing the book.

Barnes & Noble or Borders

Borders. B&N is snotty, evil place that pushes books it publishes over one's that are published by smaller presses and makes it very difficult for obscure writers to get on the shelves. Plus they are pushing the independent book sellers out of business. I hate them, but I go there...because of convience. Now I have a Borders behind me at work, which is lovely, well laid out, and the sci-fi/fantasy section unlike B&N is downstairs and within easy access to the entrance. Not to mention much more extensive.

Bookmark or dog-ear?

Bookmarks. I have dog-eared out of desperation in the past, but it destroys the book so now I will hunt down whatever scrap of paper I can find.

Favorite place to read?

Bed. Also armchair. And subway.

Alphabetize by author or alphabetize by title or random?

By genre, by favorite category, by author. Sometimes at random and by size. Sometimes by what I've read and haven't read. I don't have much space, so the books I've read tend to get boxed or go behind other books on the shelves. Plus little time - so often it's a mismatch. I'm very organized at work, more relaxed at home.

Keep, throw away, or sell?

Keep. Never throw away. Will give away. Either on my front stoop or to friends or in a swap.
Am trying to figure out how to sell to a local book store or on ebay but am lazy.

Keep dust jacket or toss it?

Keep. Why would you throw away a dust jacket?

Read with dust jacket or remove it?

Remove - for two reasons - one it preserves the dust jacket and keeps it from getting torn and messed up on the subway, and two it prevents others from knowing what I'm reading if it's a hard cover.

Short story or novel?

Novel. I've never been much of a short story fan, at least not in collections of short stories.

Harry Potter or Lemony Snicket?

Harry Potter.

Stop reading when tired or at chapter breaks?

Whenever I feel like it.

"It was a dark and stormy night" or "Once upon a time"?

"dark and stormy" less romantic.

Buy or borrow?

Buy. I despise libraries - has a lot to do with working in the evil library company with insane ex-librians. Also has to do with dust and mold which I'm highly allergic and seem to breed in most libraries, the fact the library near me sucks, that it's hard to find stuff for reasons I've never understood (been in a lot of libraries and it always the case), I hate having a due date on when I have to read a book by or worrying about the condition it is in or when to get it back, I hate worrying about finding it or waiting on someone else to read it first (impatient), and I love my books to death - I want to own them. To see them in my house. As a child I slept with them. And well, I read the things on subways - it works better if I have a paperback that I do not have to worry about getting wet or hurt in anyway - library books tend to be hard-cover.

New or used?

New. I'm allergic to mold.

Buying choice: book reviews, recommendations, or browse?

Browse and recommendations. I'm rarely influenced by reviews on anything. Very rarely do I agree with book critics. And I'm moody. Also I like discovering the book on my own or through a friend. LJ has become a great source for book recs. I ignore the others. Paid reviewers? Worthless.

Tidy ending or cliffhanger?

Both. I like variety.

Morning reading, afternoon reading, or nighttime reading?

Anytime. I tend to read before and after work on the commute home and in bed the most.

Stand-alone or series?

I like both. Series if I'm especially fond of the characters and want to learn more about them.

Favorite series?

*Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles
*Jim Butcher's Dresden Files
*Elizabeth Peter's Vicky Bliss novels
*Ursula Le Quinn's Wizard of Earthsea
* Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials
* Tolkien's Lord of the Rings

and Harry Potter.


Favorite children's book?

Winnie the Pooh

Favorite YA book?

Bridge to Terribethia and The Perilious Guard

Favorite book of which nobody else has heard?

The Witches of Worm - the children's novel by Zelphia Keatley Snyder

Favorite books read last year?

Mind is a blank...possibly Jim Butcher's Proven Guilty, The Gospel According to Lamb, and Sunshine by Robin Mckinely

Least favorite book you finished last year?

Outlander by Diana Galabadan - which I couldn't finish.

What are you reading right now?

This horrid sci-fantasy novel by SM Stirling called Dies The Fire. Almost done. Have no clue why I'm still reading it. But I just can't give up for some odd reason. Nice premise but it really makes me admire and miss George RR Martin's series, which I've yet to finish - haven't read Storm or the sequel yet. And My friend's WWII thriller, which is much better.

What are you reading next?

White Knight by Jim Butcher. Then possibly Storm of Swords by George RR Martin or Privelege of the Sword by Ellen Kushner. Or Labrynthe by Kate Moss.

Favorite book to recommend to an eleven-year-old?

Bridge to Terribethia or possibly The Hobbit.

Favorite book to reread?

I seldom reread. But when I visit my folks - will often reread Elizabeth Peter's Vicky Bliss stories, or Lymond Chronicles. I've also bought some of the Butcher books that I'd had to give back to a friend of mine - so I could re-read.

Do you ever smell books?

Allergic to mold. But yes, new ones.

Do you ever read primary source documents?

Rarely.


2. Canon -

If I live to be a hundred I will never understand the obsession people have with canon. Or why they care that much. But whatever. All that proves is by Whedon's definition, I'm not a nerd. Only nerds care about Canon. Me? Just tell me a good story that fits the characters I've fallen for, and show you love the characters as well, and I'm there.

Canon is defined in this universe as a story that is an intergral part of, being part of the "original" story, or directly flowing from it. Not alternate universe, not a fanfic, but in that continuity.

I honestly see "the obsession" with canon as getting in the way of the creative process and the free exchange of ideas. Getting in the way of the creation and appreciation of art. We borrow from one another. We play with ideas. Is the new novel "Mr. March" based on Louisa May Alcott's Little Women "Canon" by this definition? Of course not. But that does not make it any less interesting, if anything it is EVEN more interesting. Nor does it make it unworthy of your time or silly.

I don't know why other people are reading the Buffy and Angel comics - can only speak for myself - but the reason I'm reading Whedon's Buffy S8 and Brian Lynch's Spike comics is I like the writers, I like the art, I love the characters, and I'm enjoying the story and seeing where these writers want to take these characters, how they envision their lives, and what theme's they wish to discuss through them. That's why I'm reading them and that's why I read or watch stories. And - the reason I'm reading Whedon's Buffy over fanfic, or novels, or other comics on Buffy or Fray - is that I'm curious to see where Whedon would take these characters - how he sees them. Why? Because I know he loves them and he has more story in him about them. And I love the way he speaks through them and plays with them. The details, the continuity, the canon...are only important to me to the extent that the general thread of the story still makes sense and the characters are portrayed the way I perceived them. Whedon of all the writers out there, with the possible exception of Brian Lynch, seems to portray the characters the way I see them in my head. Most fanfic writers I've read, don't. And I love these characters hard - their story pushes my buttons and hits all my kinks.

Why do you? Why do read a story or watch one?

And further to the point - if you are so obsessed with canon, how in the hell do you reconcile yourself to writing and reading fanfic?

As far as the debate on my flist went regarding whether or not Whedon's Buffy S8 comic is "canon" - I agree with rahirah's take on this. It's Whedon's story, his characters, and for me the writing is the core of it but then I'm writer, so I would think like that. Do I care whether or not it falls within the so-called definition of canon? Nope.
Just wish I could understand why others do. Heck I don't even understand why Whedon cares about it.


3. Fanfiction - a debate about whether or not women writers are being silenced or hiding behind fanfic. And should write original works. Sigh. Old argument - which isn't logically supported when you look at all the evidence. Such as:

* The number of published women writers who started out writing fanfiction and got freed by writing and playing with it. Examples: Herself - What Love Means to You People, Jane Espenson, Doris Egan...just for starters.

* The number of writers who have published fanfictions based on novels in the public domain.
Wide Sargasso Sea (based on Jane Eyre), MR. March based on Louisa May Alcott's Little Women,
Marilyn - by Joyce Carol Oats, Ahab's Wife...and of course all the Pride and Prejudice stories. Not to mention Jane Austen mysteries and the Sherlock Holmes books by other people.

*The number of men who write fanfiction

Is this about the freeing ability to write soft-core and hard-core porn on the internet by women? Yet not in actuality? Because if so, you really need to go check out your local B&N bookstore's collection of female erotica - hint hunt the romance aisle. Or read some Laurell K. Hamilton. Because trust me, we aren't silenced.

Moral: be careful about making generalizations or assumptions. Course I only scanned the debate and the article (which was bloody long by the way), so this is an instance of me not following my own advice. Hee. If I misunderstood the gist, my humble apologies.

4. The Golden Compass Daemon thing is fun. Tempted to post my original version just for comparison. The only problem with it is it is really hard to move that slider on a lap-top computer. Took me forever last night. Some questions I left at neutral b/c it was just too damn difficult and I decided didn't care that much. Which makes the meme either slightly inaccurate or really accurate, can't decide which. Not crazy about my second name - Alvin? Alvin? What happened to Achelynon or Thelon...hello? ;-)

5. Whedon. Three really good bits on flist this week about Whedon.

First was an interview with him - where he states why he decided to go with Lynch on ATS S6 series and what canon means to him. In case you are curious - he defines it in the same way rahirah does in her lj. It's the work of the original writer and comes directly from the story he created and fits within that continuity. Can't remember who posted it though.
Most of them came from elisi.

The other two come from interviews with David Fury - posted by elisi and possibly petzepillingo - who has a lj name I can't remember how to spell, sorry.

*Whedon loved his characters. Unlike most TV writers, who after a while grow tired of them and see writing the show as a job and just do it as a job - Whedon genuinely loved what he did. He lived his characters. Adored them. Lived for them. They remained active in his head. And he was driven to tell their story. It was never just a job - and that energy, that passion spilled over to everyone else.

- That may explain why I fell in love with BTVS, ATS & Firefly and have not really fallen in love with any other tv show in quite the same way. When the creator loves the characters - the audience does. It's a good piece of writing advice, actually. If you love your characters - others will to. If you don't care about them - how can you expect anyone else to?

*Whedon and Sarah M. Gellar both left the series feeling that the other treated them inadequately, didn't respect their work, what they did for them or the series. Whedon thinks Gellar didn't appreciate how Buffy helped her career. Gellar thinks Whedon doesn't appreciate
how Gellar created Buffy. Fury personally thinks they are nuts - and that they were equally great. But what can you do? LOL!

--In short - don't expect Gellar to ever reprise the role. (Which I'm actually pleased about, I think she's too old and it would look funny, but hey to each their own. Also never expected it anyway. Got the very strong impression when BTVS ended most of those guys were happy not to see each other again. 12-15 hour days is a long time to work with people who irritate you. Wouldn't mind a Spike movie though, doubt I'll get one - Have the very strong impression that Marsters doesn't want to reprise the role either, unless he was paid a lot of money for it which there is no way in hell Fox will dish out. Much cheaper and easier to do comic books. Plus, I'm not certain Whedon is that interested in doing a Spike movie.)

Comments

[rahirah]

The reason I, personally, care what's canon and what's not is that canon comprises the ground rules of the fictional world I choose to write in. If I were writing a story set in Cleveland, I'd research Cleveland; if I'm writing BtVS fanfic, I research BtVS. Even though the stories I write have taken the characters in a very different direction than the show did, I like weaving stuff from canon back into them from time to time. I'm trying to create as real and thre-dimensional a world as possible, and si it's important to me to get the details right, so far as is possible.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I guess if you are basing your story on the original as a jumping off point, I can see that. And to be honest, when I've written fanfic - I've done that. I go by what I know was the original story.

And yep, you are dealing with readers who have to = to some degree feel that your characters are believable. They have to believe Buffy would do that or Spike would do that.

They need a template to base it on.

But...when we read fanfic, do we really read it based on whether or not it is true to canon - which to be honest is in the eye of the beholder anyhow, or because it is true to how we perceived the characters and story and it fits whatever fantasy is in our heads?

I used to analyze the show and what I discovered was what appeared on screen differed depending on the viewer - it was like a million different witnesses to an accident - each person sees a different thing.

Some things - are pretty definite - no interpretation needed. And Whedon's comics stay true to those things. But others are up for interpretation.

I don't know, I've read fanfic that strictly follows canon - but has the characters voices completely off, and fanfic that has the characters down cold but doesn't necessarily follow it.

As a fanfic writer - I don't understand why you can't handle the comics either way - as canon or not as canon. You could write an alternate version? I don't know...why worry so much about something that can easily be worked around?

[rahirah]

But...when we read fanfic, do we really read it based on whether or not it is true to canon - which to be honest is in the eye of the beholder anyhow, or because it is true to how we perceived the characters and story and it fits whatever fantasy is in our heads?

That depends on why a person is reading fanfic. Are they reading it because they want more of the adventures of Buffy and company? Are they reading it because they want to see something explored about the world or the characters that the source material didn't explore? Are they just trying to scratch a particular emotional or sexual itch?

I'm not saying canon is the only important thing, or that it should be equally important to everyone. Obviously it isn't, or we wouldn't have all these fics where the characters are all race car drivers, or whatever. But you said you didn't understand why people cared about it so much, and I'm just saying - for me, it's important, and this is why. As far as my own writing goes, I'm probably not going to refer to the comics much, maybe not at all, because events in the AU 'verse my stories are set in have taken a very different path, and the situation in the comics simply isn't relevant to what I'm doing. Nevertheless, I still consider them canon, and a useful reference even if I never use anything in them directly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the explanation. It does make sense.

Was thinking about this today, and it occurred to me that I didn't really explain well what was bugging me about the whole obsession with canon in the post above - partly because I didn't understand until this moment why it was bugging me. It's not what you explain above - I totally get that. Actually I care about that myself - and if I'm honest, I have to admit I can't read fanfic that steers too far away from the original story or characters, I tend to read fic that follows the original plot-line fairly closely and tries to predict what may have happened next or figure out/explore what and who the characters are. So in a way I care about canon myself.

I think my difficulty with the canon debates- is not that people care about it - I can see why they'd care. Heck to an extent, I care. It's how they define it or what they seem to see as canon. The best way to explain this is with an example:

The Buffy Comics - people are arguing it steers away from the show's canon because Buffy isn't living in Rome with the Immortal and Dawn, Xander isn't in Africa. But there is nothing in either series that states for a fact that this is the case.

It's sort of like writing a story that takes place in Cleveland, and you talk to a friend who used to live there and they tell you that Cleveland has a horrid meth lab problem and sanitation problem. The garbage isn't taken out regularly. So you write a story about Cleveland and make a point of mentioning this. You are relying on your friend as the source.

The information we get on Buffy and her friends on Angel is through Andrew of all people. Hate to say this, but the friend giving you the info on Cleveland is probably a more reliable source of information than Andrew. No where in the series is Andrew set up as a reliable source of information or trustworthy. IF anything he is set up as the exact opposite - a storyteller who is accomplished at telling elaborate and well-researched lies. Why would Andrew tell Spike where everyone was - particularly if he'd been told not to? Why would he tell Angel and Spike the truth for that matter? And how reliable is Angel's sources? Everything in the series tells us that they aren't reliable.

So fanfic writers decided that everything Andrew said was "Canon"? That's not canon, that is a subjective interpretation of the text. People don't care about canon, they care about their own interpretation of what canon is...which isn't the same thing.

Sigh. Apparently, I can be annoyingly anal too - I blame the law education. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Clarification on that last statement - meant the canon debate in general not your reponse, which wasn't anal at all.

[rahirah]

It seems to me that what a lot of people's objections boil down to, when you press them, is simply "I don't want this story to continue." The reasons for this are various, but that seems to be the common denominator.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think that's what is bugging me so much about the complaints.

It reminds me of the complaints in S6, S7, and before Spike joined Angel.

1. Buffy should have stopped with S5.
2. S6 ruined the series and should not have happened.
3. S6 and S7 should not have happened.
4. Spike should not join Angel it ruins the show.

Sigh.

I guess I've watched too many daytime soap operas, serials, and read too many comics in lifetime to understand this pov. I know if I don't like a story, I can stop watching. Or reading. Or whatever. The show may go on, but I have the ability to stop it at the point I wanted it to and imagine how I wanted it to end. I'm also capable of realizing that the story that does continue is just that writers take on it. It's not real. And anything that is not real can be played with and changed.

Heck, Whedon changed his own story. It was a film first. He didn't like it. So he changed it and made a tv show. Now it's in comics and he is changing bits and pieces of it again.

With stories, you can do what want. You cannot control what other people do or like, but you can control what you do. How you reacte.

If you don't like a story? Stop watching. If you don't like the comics?
Don't buy them. But do not tell me not to, and do not tell me not to discuss them, and do not tell me that your version is better.

I guess, my problem is I don't get the whining. I don't like a lot of stuff people on my flist is crazy about. There are books that are published that I think are complete crap. And ghod, I hate the novelizations people have done on Buffy. But who am I to deprive Nancy Holder, as atrocious as I think her writing is, of a living? I choose not to read her. Why can't these people do the same? I don't understand.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

We decided that what Andrew said was canon because it was the only information about the situation of the BtVS characters that we had. We had no choice but to take Andrew's statements as correct. And, as it was common knowledge that Michelle Trachtenberg would have appeared in 'The Girl In Question' had her own schedule allowed, there was corroborative evidence to back that up.

Now it turns out that we were wrong. For three years we've been basing everything on a lie. We took as much care as we could to build our houses upon rock and suddenly find that the surveyor lied to us and we've built them upon sand after all.

You say and if I'm honest, I have to admit I can't read fanfic that steers too far away from the original story or characters, I tend to read fic that follows the original plot-line fairly closely and tries to predict what may have happened next or figure out/explore what and who the characters are. So in a way I care about canon myself.

That means that our audience has suddenly shrunk because everybody with your attitude to canon will no longer read any of our stories that were written between 2003 and 2007 and that are set post-Chosen. Just as a lot of stories written before 'Fool For Love', that were regarded as great at the time, became suddenly virtually unreadable following that episode's revelations about Spike's past.

We are in the same position as the Golden Age science fiction writers who wrote stories about a lush, primeval swamp, Venus. All that was known about Venus was that it was shrouded in clouds. It seemed reasonable that the clouds would keep the temperature at the surface down to bearable levels, and that the clouds implied the presence of a lot of water, and so they wrote stories based on that assumption. Later it turned out that the clouds were sulphuric acid, that the temperature at the surface of Venus is that of molten lead, and that the atmospheric pressure at the surface is a crushing 90 times that on Earth. The story genre died instantly.

Season 8 may have dealt a similar mortal blow to the BtVS/AtS fanfic community.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I understand it must be frustrating to feel that people won't read your work because Joss has chosen to pick up his story again but isn't that the challenge of being a fanfic writer? That you work in someone else's universe and figure out how to dance and dodge within it or use it as a launching point. It just seems like an odd argument to be making for the closing of a canon that gave you your inspiration to begin with. To further your analogy, stories set on a swampy Venus may have gotten screwed but space exploration offered up more possibilities to the imagination of SF writers. I've seen swamps - show me this world of molten lead!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh.

I'm trying to be sympathetic here. I really am. But I can't help but agree with ponygirl, who put this much better. And...well,

Okay.

You are upset because the original writer has decided to continue his story in another medium? That they came up with a better different read on what happened in Girl in Question than you did?

You weren't upset when people like Nancy Holder or Christopher Golden or Brian Lynch or Scott Allie did it. But you don't want the original author to continue the story because it what? Conflicts with the story you are illegally publishing on the internet without his permission because you don't want to write your own story with your own characters?

I've defended fanfic in the past and will continue to do so. But do you guys have any idea how absurd your complaints sound? How would you feel if someone came along and told you not to continue a story you created because it what, conflicted with their fanfic?

Its like telling a neighbor not to plant gardenias because they don't work with your gardening scheme.

Sorry, I hate it when people tell me what to do, what to like, what to read and what to write. It enrages me. And that's what it sounds like fanfic writers are doing here - telling the rest of us that the story shouldn't continue and we shouldn't treat it with any validity because it what interfers with their fanfic and their perception of what should have happened?

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

I have no objection whatsoever to Joss continuing the story. I'd have preferred it had he done it in a more accessible form than comics, which will reach perhaps 0.01% of the BtVS audience in the UK as comics for adults are a minority interest in these isles only marginally more popular than collecting statues of Al Gore made from the earwax of left-handed Peruvian llama-herders, but at least comics don't suffer from the problem of the actors growing too old, getting religion, or deciding to disappear into the obscurity of dismal slasher movies.

I'm only upset because we've been Jossed again. We had 3 years of comfortable closed canon, secure in the knowledge that he couldn't do it to us again - and then suddenly he does. Continuation is one thing, and to be greeted with applause even if it is in an obscure medium; retconning is quite another.

You weren't upset when people like Nancy Holder or Christopher Golden or Brian Lynch or Scott Allie did it.

Of course not; they're fanfic authors who just happen to have official permission and paycheques. They don't affect what I write any more than what rahirah writes affects it. But Joss dictates the shape of the world in which we operate; and when he changes the rules when the game isn't over it's bound to be somewhat disconcerting.

Its like telling a neighbor not to plant gardenias because they don't work with your gardening scheme.

Exactly. But in this scenario it is Joss who is effectively forbidding us to plant gardenias. Or, rather, who has come into the garden in the middle of the night and laid out new gravel paths in colours that clash hideously with the gardenias that we had already planted there. He owns the ground on which the garden stands, and of course we should be grateful that he lets us plant flowers there at all; but that doesn't mean that we're going to be happy that he's done it and that we're not going to grumble as we laboriously pull up all our gardenias. And some of us are giving up, rather than replant with roses or tulips, and I can't help but feel sad about that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think he is forbidding you though. You can still write fanfic that veers away from the premise. As for losing people like me? You already lost us, or at least me. I'd grown bored with the fanfic I'd been reading and pretty much stopped altogether after 2004/2005. I've read bits and pieces of herself's fic, but it mostly disappoints me, she's not willing to take any risks and tends to repeat herself as do many writers.
The other one I was following, hasn't updated in five or six months and appears to have wandered off to write and post stuff on Supernatural, which I have 0 interest in. I don't bug her about it. It's her choice after all. And it's not like she's being paid.

I think it all depends on why you are writing the fanfic. Are you writing fanfic to get applause? OR to work on your writing and play? If the latter, what Whedon decides to do or not do, should not matter. If the former? I think it is time you find something else, because your audience is going to wander off eventually, they won't stick forever. A huge percentage of fans have already drifted, after a while you lose interest..

What Whedon's comics have done in a way is resurrect some of that interest.

The fact that they are not widely read means that you have people who will read your fic and not care or know the canon has changed.

Also it's not that big a change. Nor would I describe it as a retcon. The audience assumed that Andrew was telling the truth. The audience is not exactly infallible. Heck I assumed it, wrote a fanfic based on that premise. Do I care that Whedon corrected that assumption? Not a whit. I like the correction. But then, I know these are his characters not mine.
I know he'll change the direction and I love it when he does. It makes the story vibrant, unpredictable, and the game of guessing what happens next more fun. Also it poses a challenge.

Why not play with it as opposed to whine about it?

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Well I can see if you are allergic to mold how a Library might not be the most comfortable place for you but it's a damned shame that the one near your house is so sucky.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The one I frequented in Kansas City wasn't bad - I actually liked it and rented checked out lots of books from it. It was within walking distance of my parents home, clean, spacious, and not too big or too small. The one in Brooklyn where I live - is horrid. Dirty. Crowded. And smells of mold and dust. There is a bigger library in Brooklyn that is about the size of a stadium, but it is difficult to get to - takes about four different trains or is about an hour and half hike. Also it's almost too big.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I was joking that I would consider the comics canon unless I didn't like them but honestly I'm finding this debate quite bizarre. It's Joss' story, people are free to follow it or not, I would think that the fanfic writers are free to depart from it or not, but I don't think the validity of the story should be in question.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! I like your joke, didn't read that. And completely agree.

I've read enough fanfic and written enough to know that you can be true to the canon thing and not have to read the comics, just start your story from before them and state that. It's not like your story is going to become canon or even come close to what the original writers/creators want to do, I mean come'on.

What's really bizarre about the canon debate is what they are upset about.

*That Buffy isn't having sex with the Immortal??
*That Buffy isn't in Rome?
*That Xander isn't in Africa? (heck maybe he was for a bit)
*That Dawn isn't going to school in Rome?
*That Xander is dressed up like Nick Fury?
*That the drawings don't look like the actors? (Heck the actors no longer look like the characters for that matter.)

Most of this information we get from Andrew in Angel. Possibly the most unreliable source of information in the history of the series. This guy tells lies for the fun of it. Getting the truth out of him or a straight story is like pulling teeth. And Angel's sources? The one consistent factor on Angel was how incredibly unreliable Angel's sources of information or rather his interpretation of those sources was. Angel's whole problem was he trusted the wrong people most of the time. The only reliable piece of information on Buffy and her friends that was given to us on Angel was - Andrew's statement at the end of Damage: "We don't trust you anymore - because of what you are doing with Evil law firm." And Giles refusal to help - when they call Giles in England. That's it.

But that is beside the point. You are writing fanfic, you are going to depart from the story...it's inevitable.

Andrew

[hankat.livejournal.com]

Most of this information we get from Andrew in Angel. Possibly the most unreliable source of information in the history of the series. This guy tells lies for the fun of it. Getting the truth out of him or a straight story is like pulling teeth. And Angel's sources? The one consistent factor on Angel was how incredibly unreliable Angel's sources of information or rather his interpretation of those sources was. Angel's whole problem was he trusted the wrong people most of the time. The only reliable piece of information on Buffy and her friends that was given to us on Angel was - Andrew's statement at the end of Damage: "We don't trust you anymore - because of what you are doing with Evil law firm." And Giles refusal to help - when they call Giles in England. That's it.

For me the fact that Joss Whedon is writing the season 8 series makes it canon, period. People will either enjoy it or find some personal reason not to.

Now to Andrew. I think that the episode that would have included Buffy (but Gellar declinded to appear evidently)was told in a way that was more from the perspective of Angel or Spike's fears not the reality that they at that time were no longer in the team of good guys. Giles reaction is proof of that fact. Andrew did nothing more than play Angel and Spike and keep them at arm's length. In Damage the fact that there was a team of Slayers wasn't revealed until they were needed. Angel and Spike were nothing more than a way for the Senior Partners to get info on the other side. It wasn't until Angel and Spike (the rest of the fang gang as well) rejected what they had gained in the deal made at the end of season four were they people that could have been trusted again.

Rufus

[elz.livejournal.com]

Fanfiction - a debate about whether or not women writers are being silenced or hiding behind fanfic. And should write original works.

I think it was a little more... is fanfiction something we should be able to make money from? Do existing copyright laws place disproportionate restrictions on the kinds of writing women like to do? Is fanfiction looked down upon because it's something primarily done by women? I don't really have a problem with the status quo, because I think there are benefits to fanfic being non-commercial (not least of which is the fact that I don't have to pay for it!), but I think those are questions worth asking every once in a while.

And I loved The Witches of Worm! Zilpha Keatley Snyder was one of my favorite authors as a kid, and I read everything she wrote.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

They aren't bad questions to be asking. But the answers aren't true. Nor are the assumptions.

1. Should we be able to make money from it?

But people do make money off of it - as long as the original property is in the public domain. The properties that aren't - aren't available partly because the original author doesn't want them to be.

Also - people get jobs on tv shows writing spec scripts all the time - the equivalent of fanfic. How do you think Drew Goddard got his job on Buffy? He wrote a script for Six Feet Under - a fanfic.

It's funny, every once and a while I read a fanfic writer get upset about another writer writing a fanfic off of their WIP or finishing their WIP without their permission. Yet, it's exactly the same thing they are doing in writing the fanfic. No difference. At all. Well, not entirely true - there is a difference - their work isn't protected, and if they complained, the original author they based their story on - would be within their full rights to come galloping along and say I don't like what you did with my characters! Stop it!

2. IS fanfic looked down upon because it is something primarily done by women?

How do you know it is something written primarily by women?

From what I've seen online its not necessarily a gender specific deal. I know an equal number of male and female fanfic writers. They just focus on different things and the female writers are a little more popular because, ahem, they write porn. Guys tend to like action scenes more and Gals tend to like sex scenes more. This isn't true of all women and men of course, just the vast majority.

Lots of men write it. Still do write it in fact. Some of the best fanfic out there was and has been written by men.

So that question is based on an unsupported and somewhat faulty assumption.

3. Do existing copyright laws place disproportionate restrictions on the kinds of writing women like to do?

uh, I've studied copyright law it's not biased. It states that you can't write a story using someone else's characters and property without their permission. It does not state that you can't write pornography, erotica, romances, etc. Just that you can't co-opt someone else's property to do it.

And it is a law that applies to everyone equally. Ann McAffrey and JK Rowlings can sue you for writing and making money off of Harry Potter and Dragon Riders of Pern fanfic just as easily as Fox can sue you for making money off of Buffy fanfic.

There's no gender biasis.

And a guy who writes a fanfic can just as easily get sued as a female.

So, I'm missing how this has anything to do with silencing women's voices?

[elz.livejournal.com]

But people do make money off of it - as long as the original property is in the public domain. The properties that aren't - aren't available partly because the original author doesn't want them to be.

But the concepts of copyright and public domain aren't written in stone - they're ones we've constructed. And like any other aspect of law, they *could* change if we wanted them to.

It's funny, every once and a while I read a fanfic writer get upset about another writer writing a fanfic off of their WIP or finishing their WIP without their permission. Yet, it's exactly the same thing they are doing in writing the fanfic.

Yeah, that's not something I've ever really understood.

I know an equal number of male and female fanfic writers.

I'm sure it does depend on what you're reading and who you know, but over the last ten years, I've read thousands of stories by hundreds of authors in a dozen or so different fandoms, and have encountered maybe six or seven male writers. I'm sure if I read a lot of Doctor Who/Star Wars/Star Trek gen, for example, the ratio would be a little different, but I really do think that fanfic is a female-dominated field.

So, I'm missing how this has anything to do with silencing women's voices?

I remember Henry Jenkins having an interesting post on his blog a while back about fan films vs. vids in Star Wars fandom. The first was embraced by George Lucas and had a number of authorized contests associated with it (IIRC), and the second would get you sued. Fan films are made primarily (but not exclusively) by men, vids are made primarily (but not exclusively) by women. Now, there's nothing *necessarily* sexist in George Lucas saying, hey, I don't want people messing with my copyrighted material in this particular way, but in practice, it shakes out in a way that rewards men and punishes women. Is that a problem? You could say no; I might say no myself. But I think those situations do invite our scrutiny simply because the imbalance exists. And I think it's the same situation with fanfic - there's not necessarily something wrong with the status quo in which men do the bulk of the paid writing of television shows and tie-in novels and women do the bulk of the unpaid writing of fanfic, but it does make me wonder sometimes. And I think it should. Not that I have any easy answers on the subject.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not sure fanfic has anything to do with the inequality in the television and entertainment industry. It may if anything just be a symptom of it.

Women, like it or not, do cause some of the problem. I get more frustrated with women who tell me what roles I can play and who I can be then men. It's women, not men, who've asked me why I don't have kids for example. Women who have asked me why I haven't found a man and look down on me for not having one. And Women who have judged me for writing what could be considered more male centric fare. I don't do romance for example and have no interest in writing a sex scene or erotica.

Vids? I find silly and not original. They basically take clips from a series, add music and create a music video. A fan film is more original, it creates a story, with it's own actors, dialogue, etc. If I were to do one or the other? I'd do the fan film.

How do you know these are women writing some of these fanfics? It's hard to tell on the net who's what. I ran into a couple on All About Spike that were written by men - one of the best ones was - I think it was irkios or something was the name.

Regarding copyright law - it's a weird field. And people are getting frustrated because you can't police the internet. People can steal intellectual property on the net without working that hard at it. I used to work as a rights specialist and busted my butt to get rights to distribute magazine content on databases, to be able to distribute copyright protected images and text - while on my lj, people scan in full magazine articles and distribute them to over hundreds of people, scan in comics, and download music, films, and tv shows without paying for them.
We aren't stealing - they say. But, you are. There's nothing wrong with it. Well, what if it was your artwork and hard effort that was being distributed for free without your knowledge?

Same with fanfic - there's nothing wrong with playing with it. But making money off of someone else's effort and hardwork without giving them a percentage or getting their permission? That's not right.

Conan Doyle killed Sherlock Holmes because he feared what people would do with him. (Didn't work).

Agatha Christie did the same thing with Hercule Poirot - which sort of did.

I can't say I blame them. I haven't put any of my original fiction online because I fear people stealing it and making money off of it. And I would be upset if they did. My characters are my babies. Yet at the same time, once it gets published and is out there and someone wants to write fanfic? I'd be flattered, much like Joss Whedon is. Would I want them to be able to publish their fanfic and put it in competition with any continuation of the story I wanted to do myself? Hell no. My reaction would be - create your own story and characters. Don't piggy-back off of me. Yet, by the same token, to a degree I'd flattered and want them to borrow a little of it. And would love to see their twist on my ideas.
Just as my novel came from a concept that Whedon's stories gave me.

If women feel silenced then it is our responsibility to fight back. Not whine about it. Write. Push. Get your stories out there. Self-publish.
There's no excuse any more. With the internet, we are no longer dependent on mainstream media outlets.

And do the things the guys are doing - make fan films not vids.

Don't know if there are easy answers...but, the only way we can get more women on tv is if we watch the shows they write. If we buy their books.
If we support them.

Ghod it's late and I need to sleep. Have no clue if that made a lick of sense. ;-)

[rahirah]

FYI, irfikos is a woman...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! I can't even remember the name.

Could have sworn it was a man - the bio and all. But people lie all the time about gender on the net, I've discovered. No idea why. Some people don't want you to know what gender they are at all. I got in trouble once for calling a poster a her and hir b/c they didn't want to be tagged one way or the other.

Another fanfic writer who is a guy is Malandaza from ATPO board, who wrote quite a bit of fic back in the day. And of course Ozymandas from the BC&S board who was a huge B/X fanfic writer, he also wrote Carly/Sonny fic (characters from General Hosptial - proof men watch soaps just like women do). There are a couple male B/S writers but not many.
Most liked to write about all the characters. Londonkds writes fic - a guy. As did D'herbalya - another guy. And dlgood. I have a lot of men on my flist who have written fanfic or participated in the writing of it. Back in 2002 I wrote a fanfic with two guys and four women. And online a friend of mine, a guy not only wrote a fanfic starring the people on the fanboard but also participated in a male/female combined effort to write an Angel S6 fic.

I have yet to see anything proving women outnumber men regarding fanfic.
Maybe in Spuffy - but men aren't into writing romances, they prefer action. That said, there are quite a few men who have written romances.
One of my favorite romance novels of all time was written by a man: Bride of the Mchugh.

Thanks for the correction.

Women

[hankat.livejournal.com]

Women, like it or not, do cause some of the problem. I get more frustrated with women who tell me what roles I can play and who I can be then men. It's women, not men, who've asked me why I don't have kids for example. Women who have asked me why I haven't found a man and look down on me for not having one. And Women who have judged me for writing what could be considered more male centric fare. I don't do romance for example and have no interest in writing a sex scene or erotica.

I agree with you on the fact that it's women who are the most vocal about what I did or didn't do in my life. When women find out I never had kids they assume it's because I don't like them. They don't even consider the reasons why I may not have been able to physically or emotionally. It's like I should have a pamphlet at the ready that says:

Fibroids
Endemetriosis
Hysterectomy
None of the above made me hostile to children.

Rufus

Re: Women

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Same thing with me.

I actually would have liked to have kids.

What got in the way?

Single
No guy that I want to have kids with
Refusal to have them by myself

All valid reasons.

I remember wanting to kick some bica on the ATPO board for going on about how it was better to be a mom with a hubby and a housewife and that people like me were wasting our lives. Ugh. The guys online actually didn't say this and backed me and the rest of us up. No, the person who said it was a woman.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

The one fanfilm I’ve seen had every vid I’ve ever watched beat hollow for silly. Admittedly it was probably rather atypical being produced/directed by a woman and essentially a live action fanfic. I think most fan films are either parodies or, mockumentaries thus avoiding both copyright complications and originality.

One thing about vids compared with fanfilms is they need almost zero infrastructure to produce, which is a little reminiscent of Virginia Woolf’s argument in “A Room of her Own” that women artists suffer disproportionately from constraints on their time and family responsibilities that conflict with creative work. On the whole though I think to make a case that women writers are disadvantaged by expressing themselves via fanfic you’d have to show that the powers that be associate fanfic with women. It might also be instructive to compare equivalent male and female biased genres – I don’t think anime, which is largely produced by men, is any more respectable than live-action vidding.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I think the argument is unsupported and I don't know how you can prove it without getting every fanfic writer out there to tell you exactly what gender they are - and some of them have been known to lie. Heck, I can't tell half the time.

I do know that the powers that be do not necessarily associate fanfic with women. Heck I didn't. Until 2001 I did not know people were writing fanfic about Buffy, I knew they were doing it with Star Wars and they were mostly teenage boys. Lots of teenage boys write fanfic on Star Wars, comics, action films, dungeon and dragons, science fiction stories they've read, and Indiana Jones. When I was in high school, a boy wrote a parody of Indiana Jones called Idaho Jones starring a female that we performed in elementary schools across the area. I played Helga a tall german villain.

Nor do I completely buy Virgina Woolf's argument in this day and age. Men take care of the kids now. The men at work and my friends husbands, as well as my brother, all spend as much time as their wives with the children. A friend of mine who is writing a book - told me that today her husband was taking their son so she could write. They also have the additional income. It's actually harder for us single women and men, who have to work then come home and write. We don't have the spouse who can work while we stay at home working on the novel. But that is of course a gross generalization - it varies for everyone.

A more likely argument is one that fara shimbo - a sci-fi writer on my flist, brought up - which is that as a woman writer the publishing houses expect you to have a romance in your novel. Sex. If you don't have it, they tend to push you to put it in, because they don't believe women will read a novel without it. That bothers me. Because I know I will read novels without romances or sex scenes. And I certainly want to write them. To be limited to only write novels that have a romance would make me nuts. My gender should not matter that much.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

So women with children and jobs must have it worst of all :-) Or single mothers. Or single mothers with jobs. Or single mothers with jobs and disabled triplets. Or dentists (being, according to my sister-in-law, the hardest job in the world). Sometimes it seems as if teh patriarchy really has succeeded with its whole divide and conquer project but I guess it’s just the natural human tendency to take it personally when people like you make different choices from you. (I get more criticism from other women than from men too).

[elz.livejournal.com]

Vids? I find silly and not original.

A lot of people say the same about fanfic. In both cases, I think the quality and originality of the work depends on the artist. And I've found that people can do things with re-contextualization of scenes and juxtapositions of images and lyrics not only to tell stories through vids but also to express things about their view of a show/character/relationship in really succinct and clever ways.

How do you know these are women writing some of these fanfics?

On newsgroups, lists and journals, you get a fair amount of context about people's lives - especially on Livejournal, where fans regularly talk about their families, their wardrobes, their menstrual cycles, etc. And even on archives, a pretty large percentage of writers use gender-specific names. That may not be 100% accurate - I know there are a few female slash writers who write under male names - but experience suggests that it's not too far off. rahirah asked the question in her journal and got the names of about 40 male BtVS fic writers. I don't question the fact that they exist and that they contribute valuable things to fandom, but if you wanted the names of every woman who's written BtVS fic in the last ten years, on lists, on boards, on lj, on fanfiction.net, the number would be in the thousands. Romance-based fic and slash are almost entirely the domain of women (apart from outliers like Xander/Buffy), and there are PHENOMENAL amounts of that out there.

Same with fanfic - there's nothing wrong with playing with it. But making money off of someone else's effort and hardwork without giving them a percentage or getting their permission? That's not right.

Like I said, I don't really have a problem with the status quo. (Well, if it was up to me, I'd have copyrights expire after fifty years, but I wouldn't abolish them entirely. Artists need to eat.) But I like to take the status quo out of its box and poke at it from time to time, because it isn't good to take these things for granted.

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

"Witches of Worm" used to be one of my favorite books as a kid. I should really re-read that!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

If you find it let me know. I think its out of print. Haven't seen it anywhere in years.

I fell in love with the book. It was my first foray into fantasy.