From my correspondence list...

[shadowkat]

Picked up the following bits from my scan/read of my flist.

1. Cool Book Meme via petzepillingo



Paperback, hardback or trade paperback?

* The small Paperbacks - easier to read, I can cart them literally anywhere, they fit in pockets and purses, aren't heavy, and when you spend most of your time reading on subways or on the move this is a necessity. Plus do not take up much space on my bookshelf. And they are cheaper than the bigger paperback and hardcover novels. I own very few hard-cover and only buy them when necessary - ie, don't want to wait for the paperback to come out or its the sort of book that just has to be hardcover - ie - Gray's Anatomy or "Gotham: A History of New York".

Amazon or brick and mortar?

Book stores - if that is what you mean by brick and mortar. True you can get anything from Amazon. But I like to hold a book in my hands, flip through the pages, check out random paragraphs, and stand in the store and read a chapter or two before I buy it. Also, getting deliveries at my humble abode is a nightmare. Plus I love the spontaneity of wandering in a book store and just browsing, letting the book choose you as opposed to you choosing the book.

Barnes & Noble or Borders

Borders. B&N is snotty, evil place that pushes books it publishes over one's that are published by smaller presses and makes it very difficult for obscure writers to get on the shelves. Plus they are pushing the independent book sellers out of business. I hate them, but I go there...because of convience. Now I have a Borders behind me at work, which is lovely, well laid out, and the sci-fi/fantasy section unlike B&N is downstairs and within easy access to the entrance. Not to mention much more extensive.

Bookmark or dog-ear?

Bookmarks. I have dog-eared out of desperation in the past, but it destroys the book so now I will hunt down whatever scrap of paper I can find.

Favorite place to read?

Bed. Also armchair. And subway.

Alphabetize by author or alphabetize by title or random?

By genre, by favorite category, by author. Sometimes at random and by size. Sometimes by what I've read and haven't read. I don't have much space, so the books I've read tend to get boxed or go behind other books on the shelves. Plus little time - so often it's a mismatch. I'm very organized at work, more relaxed at home.

Keep, throw away, or sell?

Keep. Never throw away. Will give away. Either on my front stoop or to friends or in a swap.
Am trying to figure out how to sell to a local book store or on ebay but am lazy.

Keep dust jacket or toss it?

Keep. Why would you throw away a dust jacket?

Read with dust jacket or remove it?

Remove - for two reasons - one it preserves the dust jacket and keeps it from getting torn and messed up on the subway, and two it prevents others from knowing what I'm reading if it's a hard cover.

Short story or novel?

Novel. I've never been much of a short story fan, at least not in collections of short stories.

Harry Potter or Lemony Snicket?

Harry Potter.

Stop reading when tired or at chapter breaks?

Whenever I feel like it.

"It was a dark and stormy night" or "Once upon a time"?

"dark and stormy" less romantic.

Buy or borrow?

Buy. I despise libraries - has a lot to do with working in the evil library company with insane ex-librians. Also has to do with dust and mold which I'm highly allergic and seem to breed in most libraries, the fact the library near me sucks, that it's hard to find stuff for reasons I've never understood (been in a lot of libraries and it always the case), I hate having a due date on when I have to read a book by or worrying about the condition it is in or when to get it back, I hate worrying about finding it or waiting on someone else to read it first (impatient), and I love my books to death - I want to own them. To see them in my house. As a child I slept with them. And well, I read the things on subways - it works better if I have a paperback that I do not have to worry about getting wet or hurt in anyway - library books tend to be hard-cover.

New or used?

New. I'm allergic to mold.

Buying choice: book reviews, recommendations, or browse?

Browse and recommendations. I'm rarely influenced by reviews on anything. Very rarely do I agree with book critics. And I'm moody. Also I like discovering the book on my own or through a friend. LJ has become a great source for book recs. I ignore the others. Paid reviewers? Worthless.

Tidy ending or cliffhanger?

Both. I like variety.

Morning reading, afternoon reading, or nighttime reading?

Anytime. I tend to read before and after work on the commute home and in bed the most.

Stand-alone or series?

I like both. Series if I'm especially fond of the characters and want to learn more about them.

Favorite series?

*Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles
*Jim Butcher's Dresden Files
*Elizabeth Peter's Vicky Bliss novels
*Ursula Le Quinn's Wizard of Earthsea
* Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials
* Tolkien's Lord of the Rings

and Harry Potter.


Favorite children's book?

Winnie the Pooh

Favorite YA book?

Bridge to Terribethia and The Perilious Guard

Favorite book of which nobody else has heard?

The Witches of Worm - the children's novel by Zelphia Keatley Snyder

Favorite books read last year?

Mind is a blank...possibly Jim Butcher's Proven Guilty, The Gospel According to Lamb, and Sunshine by Robin Mckinely

Least favorite book you finished last year?

Outlander by Diana Galabadan - which I couldn't finish.

What are you reading right now?

This horrid sci-fantasy novel by SM Stirling called Dies The Fire. Almost done. Have no clue why I'm still reading it. But I just can't give up for some odd reason. Nice premise but it really makes me admire and miss George RR Martin's series, which I've yet to finish - haven't read Storm or the sequel yet. And My friend's WWII thriller, which is much better.

What are you reading next?

White Knight by Jim Butcher. Then possibly Storm of Swords by George RR Martin or Privelege of the Sword by Ellen Kushner. Or Labrynthe by Kate Moss.

Favorite book to recommend to an eleven-year-old?

Bridge to Terribethia or possibly The Hobbit.

Favorite book to reread?

I seldom reread. But when I visit my folks - will often reread Elizabeth Peter's Vicky Bliss stories, or Lymond Chronicles. I've also bought some of the Butcher books that I'd had to give back to a friend of mine - so I could re-read.

Do you ever smell books?

Allergic to mold. But yes, new ones.

Do you ever read primary source documents?

Rarely.


2. Canon -

If I live to be a hundred I will never understand the obsession people have with canon. Or why they care that much. But whatever. All that proves is by Whedon's definition, I'm not a nerd. Only nerds care about Canon. Me? Just tell me a good story that fits the characters I've fallen for, and show you love the characters as well, and I'm there.

Canon is defined in this universe as a story that is an intergral part of, being part of the "original" story, or directly flowing from it. Not alternate universe, not a fanfic, but in that continuity.

I honestly see "the obsession" with canon as getting in the way of the creative process and the free exchange of ideas. Getting in the way of the creation and appreciation of art. We borrow from one another. We play with ideas. Is the new novel "Mr. March" based on Louisa May Alcott's Little Women "Canon" by this definition? Of course not. But that does not make it any less interesting, if anything it is EVEN more interesting. Nor does it make it unworthy of your time or silly.

I don't know why other people are reading the Buffy and Angel comics - can only speak for myself - but the reason I'm reading Whedon's Buffy S8 and Brian Lynch's Spike comics is I like the writers, I like the art, I love the characters, and I'm enjoying the story and seeing where these writers want to take these characters, how they envision their lives, and what theme's they wish to discuss through them. That's why I'm reading them and that's why I read or watch stories. And - the reason I'm reading Whedon's Buffy over fanfic, or novels, or other comics on Buffy or Fray - is that I'm curious to see where Whedon would take these characters - how he sees them. Why? Because I know he loves them and he has more story in him about them. And I love the way he speaks through them and plays with them. The details, the continuity, the canon...are only important to me to the extent that the general thread of the story still makes sense and the characters are portrayed the way I perceived them. Whedon of all the writers out there, with the possible exception of Brian Lynch, seems to portray the characters the way I see them in my head. Most fanfic writers I've read, don't. And I love these characters hard - their story pushes my buttons and hits all my kinks.

Why do you? Why do read a story or watch one?

And further to the point - if you are so obsessed with canon, how in the hell do you reconcile yourself to writing and reading fanfic?

As far as the debate on my flist went regarding whether or not Whedon's Buffy S8 comic is "canon" - I agree with rahirah's take on this. It's Whedon's story, his characters, and for me the writing is the core of it but then I'm writer, so I would think like that. Do I care whether or not it falls within the so-called definition of canon? Nope.
Just wish I could understand why others do. Heck I don't even understand why Whedon cares about it.


3. Fanfiction - a debate about whether or not women writers are being silenced or hiding behind fanfic. And should write original works. Sigh. Old argument - which isn't logically supported when you look at all the evidence. Such as:

* The number of published women writers who started out writing fanfiction and got freed by writing and playing with it. Examples: Herself - What Love Means to You People, Jane Espenson, Doris Egan...just for starters.

* The number of writers who have published fanfictions based on novels in the public domain.
Wide Sargasso Sea (based on Jane Eyre), MR. March based on Louisa May Alcott's Little Women,
Marilyn - by Joyce Carol Oats, Ahab's Wife...and of course all the Pride and Prejudice stories. Not to mention Jane Austen mysteries and the Sherlock Holmes books by other people.

*The number of men who write fanfiction

Is this about the freeing ability to write soft-core and hard-core porn on the internet by women? Yet not in actuality? Because if so, you really need to go check out your local B&N bookstore's collection of female erotica - hint hunt the romance aisle. Or read some Laurell K. Hamilton. Because trust me, we aren't silenced.

Moral: be careful about making generalizations or assumptions. Course I only scanned the debate and the article (which was bloody long by the way), so this is an instance of me not following my own advice. Hee. If I misunderstood the gist, my humble apologies.

4. The Golden Compass Daemon thing is fun. Tempted to post my original version just for comparison. The only problem with it is it is really hard to move that slider on a lap-top computer. Took me forever last night. Some questions I left at neutral b/c it was just too damn difficult and I decided didn't care that much. Which makes the meme either slightly inaccurate or really accurate, can't decide which. Not crazy about my second name - Alvin? Alvin? What happened to Achelynon or Thelon...hello? ;-)

5. Whedon. Three really good bits on flist this week about Whedon.

First was an interview with him - where he states why he decided to go with Lynch on ATS S6 series and what canon means to him. In case you are curious - he defines it in the same way rahirah does in her lj. It's the work of the original writer and comes directly from the story he created and fits within that continuity. Can't remember who posted it though.
Most of them came from elisi.

The other two come from interviews with David Fury - posted by elisi and possibly petzepillingo - who has a lj name I can't remember how to spell, sorry.

*Whedon loved his characters. Unlike most TV writers, who after a while grow tired of them and see writing the show as a job and just do it as a job - Whedon genuinely loved what he did. He lived his characters. Adored them. Lived for them. They remained active in his head. And he was driven to tell their story. It was never just a job - and that energy, that passion spilled over to everyone else.

- That may explain why I fell in love with BTVS, ATS & Firefly and have not really fallen in love with any other tv show in quite the same way. When the creator loves the characters - the audience does. It's a good piece of writing advice, actually. If you love your characters - others will to. If you don't care about them - how can you expect anyone else to?

*Whedon and Sarah M. Gellar both left the series feeling that the other treated them inadequately, didn't respect their work, what they did for them or the series. Whedon thinks Gellar didn't appreciate how Buffy helped her career. Gellar thinks Whedon doesn't appreciate
how Gellar created Buffy. Fury personally thinks they are nuts - and that they were equally great. But what can you do? LOL!

--In short - don't expect Gellar to ever reprise the role. (Which I'm actually pleased about, I think she's too old and it would look funny, but hey to each their own. Also never expected it anyway. Got the very strong impression when BTVS ended most of those guys were happy not to see each other again. 12-15 hour days is a long time to work with people who irritate you. Wouldn't mind a Spike movie though, doubt I'll get one - Have the very strong impression that Marsters doesn't want to reprise the role either, unless he was paid a lot of money for it which there is no way in hell Fox will dish out. Much cheaper and easier to do comic books. Plus, I'm not certain Whedon is that interested in doing a Spike movie.)

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I guess if you are basing your story on the original as a jumping off point, I can see that. And to be honest, when I've written fanfic - I've done that. I go by what I know was the original story.

And yep, you are dealing with readers who have to = to some degree feel that your characters are believable. They have to believe Buffy would do that or Spike would do that.

They need a template to base it on.

But...when we read fanfic, do we really read it based on whether or not it is true to canon - which to be honest is in the eye of the beholder anyhow, or because it is true to how we perceived the characters and story and it fits whatever fantasy is in our heads?

I used to analyze the show and what I discovered was what appeared on screen differed depending on the viewer - it was like a million different witnesses to an accident - each person sees a different thing.

Some things - are pretty definite - no interpretation needed. And Whedon's comics stay true to those things. But others are up for interpretation.

I don't know, I've read fanfic that strictly follows canon - but has the characters voices completely off, and fanfic that has the characters down cold but doesn't necessarily follow it.

As a fanfic writer - I don't understand why you can't handle the comics either way - as canon or not as canon. You could write an alternate version? I don't know...why worry so much about something that can easily be worked around?

[rahirah]

But...when we read fanfic, do we really read it based on whether or not it is true to canon - which to be honest is in the eye of the beholder anyhow, or because it is true to how we perceived the characters and story and it fits whatever fantasy is in our heads?

That depends on why a person is reading fanfic. Are they reading it because they want more of the adventures of Buffy and company? Are they reading it because they want to see something explored about the world or the characters that the source material didn't explore? Are they just trying to scratch a particular emotional or sexual itch?

I'm not saying canon is the only important thing, or that it should be equally important to everyone. Obviously it isn't, or we wouldn't have all these fics where the characters are all race car drivers, or whatever. But you said you didn't understand why people cared about it so much, and I'm just saying - for me, it's important, and this is why. As far as my own writing goes, I'm probably not going to refer to the comics much, maybe not at all, because events in the AU 'verse my stories are set in have taken a very different path, and the situation in the comics simply isn't relevant to what I'm doing. Nevertheless, I still consider them canon, and a useful reference even if I never use anything in them directly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the explanation. It does make sense.

Was thinking about this today, and it occurred to me that I didn't really explain well what was bugging me about the whole obsession with canon in the post above - partly because I didn't understand until this moment why it was bugging me. It's not what you explain above - I totally get that. Actually I care about that myself - and if I'm honest, I have to admit I can't read fanfic that steers too far away from the original story or characters, I tend to read fic that follows the original plot-line fairly closely and tries to predict what may have happened next or figure out/explore what and who the characters are. So in a way I care about canon myself.

I think my difficulty with the canon debates- is not that people care about it - I can see why they'd care. Heck to an extent, I care. It's how they define it or what they seem to see as canon. The best way to explain this is with an example:

The Buffy Comics - people are arguing it steers away from the show's canon because Buffy isn't living in Rome with the Immortal and Dawn, Xander isn't in Africa. But there is nothing in either series that states for a fact that this is the case.

It's sort of like writing a story that takes place in Cleveland, and you talk to a friend who used to live there and they tell you that Cleveland has a horrid meth lab problem and sanitation problem. The garbage isn't taken out regularly. So you write a story about Cleveland and make a point of mentioning this. You are relying on your friend as the source.

The information we get on Buffy and her friends on Angel is through Andrew of all people. Hate to say this, but the friend giving you the info on Cleveland is probably a more reliable source of information than Andrew. No where in the series is Andrew set up as a reliable source of information or trustworthy. IF anything he is set up as the exact opposite - a storyteller who is accomplished at telling elaborate and well-researched lies. Why would Andrew tell Spike where everyone was - particularly if he'd been told not to? Why would he tell Angel and Spike the truth for that matter? And how reliable is Angel's sources? Everything in the series tells us that they aren't reliable.

So fanfic writers decided that everything Andrew said was "Canon"? That's not canon, that is a subjective interpretation of the text. People don't care about canon, they care about their own interpretation of what canon is...which isn't the same thing.

Sigh. Apparently, I can be annoyingly anal too - I blame the law education. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Clarification on that last statement - meant the canon debate in general not your reponse, which wasn't anal at all.

[rahirah]

It seems to me that what a lot of people's objections boil down to, when you press them, is simply "I don't want this story to continue." The reasons for this are various, but that seems to be the common denominator.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think that's what is bugging me so much about the complaints.

It reminds me of the complaints in S6, S7, and before Spike joined Angel.

1. Buffy should have stopped with S5.
2. S6 ruined the series and should not have happened.
3. S6 and S7 should not have happened.
4. Spike should not join Angel it ruins the show.

Sigh.

I guess I've watched too many daytime soap operas, serials, and read too many comics in lifetime to understand this pov. I know if I don't like a story, I can stop watching. Or reading. Or whatever. The show may go on, but I have the ability to stop it at the point I wanted it to and imagine how I wanted it to end. I'm also capable of realizing that the story that does continue is just that writers take on it. It's not real. And anything that is not real can be played with and changed.

Heck, Whedon changed his own story. It was a film first. He didn't like it. So he changed it and made a tv show. Now it's in comics and he is changing bits and pieces of it again.

With stories, you can do what want. You cannot control what other people do or like, but you can control what you do. How you reacte.

If you don't like a story? Stop watching. If you don't like the comics?
Don't buy them. But do not tell me not to, and do not tell me not to discuss them, and do not tell me that your version is better.

I guess, my problem is I don't get the whining. I don't like a lot of stuff people on my flist is crazy about. There are books that are published that I think are complete crap. And ghod, I hate the novelizations people have done on Buffy. But who am I to deprive Nancy Holder, as atrocious as I think her writing is, of a living? I choose not to read her. Why can't these people do the same? I don't understand.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

We decided that what Andrew said was canon because it was the only information about the situation of the BtVS characters that we had. We had no choice but to take Andrew's statements as correct. And, as it was common knowledge that Michelle Trachtenberg would have appeared in 'The Girl In Question' had her own schedule allowed, there was corroborative evidence to back that up.

Now it turns out that we were wrong. For three years we've been basing everything on a lie. We took as much care as we could to build our houses upon rock and suddenly find that the surveyor lied to us and we've built them upon sand after all.

You say and if I'm honest, I have to admit I can't read fanfic that steers too far away from the original story or characters, I tend to read fic that follows the original plot-line fairly closely and tries to predict what may have happened next or figure out/explore what and who the characters are. So in a way I care about canon myself.

That means that our audience has suddenly shrunk because everybody with your attitude to canon will no longer read any of our stories that were written between 2003 and 2007 and that are set post-Chosen. Just as a lot of stories written before 'Fool For Love', that were regarded as great at the time, became suddenly virtually unreadable following that episode's revelations about Spike's past.

We are in the same position as the Golden Age science fiction writers who wrote stories about a lush, primeval swamp, Venus. All that was known about Venus was that it was shrouded in clouds. It seemed reasonable that the clouds would keep the temperature at the surface down to bearable levels, and that the clouds implied the presence of a lot of water, and so they wrote stories based on that assumption. Later it turned out that the clouds were sulphuric acid, that the temperature at the surface of Venus is that of molten lead, and that the atmospheric pressure at the surface is a crushing 90 times that on Earth. The story genre died instantly.

Season 8 may have dealt a similar mortal blow to the BtVS/AtS fanfic community.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I understand it must be frustrating to feel that people won't read your work because Joss has chosen to pick up his story again but isn't that the challenge of being a fanfic writer? That you work in someone else's universe and figure out how to dance and dodge within it or use it as a launching point. It just seems like an odd argument to be making for the closing of a canon that gave you your inspiration to begin with. To further your analogy, stories set on a swampy Venus may have gotten screwed but space exploration offered up more possibilities to the imagination of SF writers. I've seen swamps - show me this world of molten lead!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh.

I'm trying to be sympathetic here. I really am. But I can't help but agree with ponygirl, who put this much better. And...well,

Okay.

You are upset because the original writer has decided to continue his story in another medium? That they came up with a better different read on what happened in Girl in Question than you did?

You weren't upset when people like Nancy Holder or Christopher Golden or Brian Lynch or Scott Allie did it. But you don't want the original author to continue the story because it what? Conflicts with the story you are illegally publishing on the internet without his permission because you don't want to write your own story with your own characters?

I've defended fanfic in the past and will continue to do so. But do you guys have any idea how absurd your complaints sound? How would you feel if someone came along and told you not to continue a story you created because it what, conflicted with their fanfic?

Its like telling a neighbor not to plant gardenias because they don't work with your gardening scheme.

Sorry, I hate it when people tell me what to do, what to like, what to read and what to write. It enrages me. And that's what it sounds like fanfic writers are doing here - telling the rest of us that the story shouldn't continue and we shouldn't treat it with any validity because it what interfers with their fanfic and their perception of what should have happened?

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

I have no objection whatsoever to Joss continuing the story. I'd have preferred it had he done it in a more accessible form than comics, which will reach perhaps 0.01% of the BtVS audience in the UK as comics for adults are a minority interest in these isles only marginally more popular than collecting statues of Al Gore made from the earwax of left-handed Peruvian llama-herders, but at least comics don't suffer from the problem of the actors growing too old, getting religion, or deciding to disappear into the obscurity of dismal slasher movies.

I'm only upset because we've been Jossed again. We had 3 years of comfortable closed canon, secure in the knowledge that he couldn't do it to us again - and then suddenly he does. Continuation is one thing, and to be greeted with applause even if it is in an obscure medium; retconning is quite another.

You weren't upset when people like Nancy Holder or Christopher Golden or Brian Lynch or Scott Allie did it.

Of course not; they're fanfic authors who just happen to have official permission and paycheques. They don't affect what I write any more than what rahirah writes affects it. But Joss dictates the shape of the world in which we operate; and when he changes the rules when the game isn't over it's bound to be somewhat disconcerting.

Its like telling a neighbor not to plant gardenias because they don't work with your gardening scheme.

Exactly. But in this scenario it is Joss who is effectively forbidding us to plant gardenias. Or, rather, who has come into the garden in the middle of the night and laid out new gravel paths in colours that clash hideously with the gardenias that we had already planted there. He owns the ground on which the garden stands, and of course we should be grateful that he lets us plant flowers there at all; but that doesn't mean that we're going to be happy that he's done it and that we're not going to grumble as we laboriously pull up all our gardenias. And some of us are giving up, rather than replant with roses or tulips, and I can't help but feel sad about that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think he is forbidding you though. You can still write fanfic that veers away from the premise. As for losing people like me? You already lost us, or at least me. I'd grown bored with the fanfic I'd been reading and pretty much stopped altogether after 2004/2005. I've read bits and pieces of herself's fic, but it mostly disappoints me, she's not willing to take any risks and tends to repeat herself as do many writers.
The other one I was following, hasn't updated in five or six months and appears to have wandered off to write and post stuff on Supernatural, which I have 0 interest in. I don't bug her about it. It's her choice after all. And it's not like she's being paid.

I think it all depends on why you are writing the fanfic. Are you writing fanfic to get applause? OR to work on your writing and play? If the latter, what Whedon decides to do or not do, should not matter. If the former? I think it is time you find something else, because your audience is going to wander off eventually, they won't stick forever. A huge percentage of fans have already drifted, after a while you lose interest..

What Whedon's comics have done in a way is resurrect some of that interest.

The fact that they are not widely read means that you have people who will read your fic and not care or know the canon has changed.

Also it's not that big a change. Nor would I describe it as a retcon. The audience assumed that Andrew was telling the truth. The audience is not exactly infallible. Heck I assumed it, wrote a fanfic based on that premise. Do I care that Whedon corrected that assumption? Not a whit. I like the correction. But then, I know these are his characters not mine.
I know he'll change the direction and I love it when he does. It makes the story vibrant, unpredictable, and the game of guessing what happens next more fun. Also it poses a challenge.

Why not play with it as opposed to whine about it?