I neither love nor hate the comics but I am buying them and enjoying them, which wasn't a choice in the poll. As for caring about canon, I care about it but think fanfic reserves the right to break or play with or ignore key pieces of it, though the charm of the all-human AU continues to entirely elude me.
Still rusty at this poll thing, and would probably work better if I didn't try to do it on the sly at work, LOL!
Anywho...if you are enjoying them and neither love nor hate, just select love. It's the same as enjoyment or that's how I'm defining it. If you buy them - you more or less fit under that category. If you are truly ambivalent, pick don't care. The question has more to do with whether or not people think they shouldn't be around.
Thanks for commenting. Particularly regarding the canon thing - which is pretty much how I feel about canon.
FYI, the "other" ticky box I checked refers to my written but never posted/shared fanfic in which the whole story of Camelot turns out to be yet another showdown between Dream and Desire of Neil Gaiman's Sandman series. (Desire thinks s/he's won because s/he brought down the kingdom, but Dream trumps him/her in the end when Camelot becomes an inspiration for idealized government - the dream of a perfect state).
Not really important to your poll, but I felt like sharing. ;)
Re your post aboutwhether the Buffy Season 8 comics are canon (http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/270108.html) and why we should or shouldn't care:
My not-so-brief answer is that, no, the comic books are not the same canon as the TV show. The Buffyverse is and always will be Joss Whedon's baby, no denying it. But there were many other creative powers involved in the TV show that aren't involved in the comics -- actors, directors, crew, composers, costumers, etc -- and Buffy the Vampire Slayer was as much about them as it was about Joss.
The best analogy would be Superman canon. There's the overarcing canon, which includes everything EVER that has used the name Superman. But comics canon =/= movie canon =/= Smallville =/= Lois and Clark =/= Bruce Timm cartoons, etc. Even within comics canon, there are contradictions, disputed canon, different trends in characterisation.
I think trying to figure out what is or is not canon is very important -- even if there is still some disagreement, it's good to debate, it's good to try to find common ground or at least decide where my boundaries lie versus your boundaries. We can't assume that my stop sign is your stop sign, then hope nobody gets hit by a car.
I mean, the simplest proof that canon is important? The next completely out-of-character fic that's posted. Sure, she's a vampire slayer and lives in Sunnydale and has a kid sister, Watcher, Scoobies, and a vampire hanging around. But if she's suddenly, with no explanation, meek and timid, stuttering and not at all quippy, unfashionable and good at chemistry, selfish to an extreme, I'm gonna call foul and say the author needs to damn well pay attention to what they're watching on TV.
Re your poll: I always care about canon. As a big ol' fangirl, I'm often obsessive about details. As a writer, I care about canon as far as I want to use it to serve my story. My missing scenes and futurefic are more canon dependent than my (slash) romances, which are more canon dependent than my AUs (characterisation is still canon, even if setting and plot aren't). As a reader, I still care about canon but I'm much more flexible. I read a LOT of fanfic, and I've learned to be tolerant of mildly out-of-character, out-of-canon writing. And I love AUs, genderbender, crossovers, crackfic, etc. As long as it's well-written, I'll probably give it a shot.
I actually agree with your take regarding both the importance of canon and how the comics should be treated within that.
You are right - there is a huge difference between a television series and a comic. Heroes is actually doing a good job of showing the differences and how those differences effect what happens.
In a tv series - Whedon has limitations and opportunities he does not have in comics. More people provide in-put. For example, an actor or actress may decide to say a line differently - and granted he does push for them to say it exactly as it was written, but he doesn't direct all the episodes either - so there are points in time they will say it differently. Tom Lenk for example often ad-libbed things that the writers left in because it made them laugh. He also does not have control over on-screen chemistry between actors. IF Buffy had been a comic from the beginning, I seriously doubt the Spike character would have had the arc he did or the Wesely character for that matter - the two actors who played those roles influenced the writers. It was Marsters who suggested to Whedon that Spike was sticking around Sunnydale because he loved Buffy. Or the mere fact that Juliet Landau, Seth Green, Amber Benson became unavailable at certain points. So you are right.
I guess it comes down to how one defines canon. This is the frustrating thing about language - we do not always agree on the definition of a specific word. I define canon a little broader - it is whatever comes from the creator. But and this is a big but - how do you handle the fact that a story is the product of multiple creators? Whedon may be the one who got credit for writing and creating BTVS - but he didn't do it alone. Gellar, et al deserve equal credit. David Fury sort of said this in an interview recently that the comics were great but they couldn't fall within the same canon as the tv series - any more, I'd state, than a whole new TV series based on BTVS and with the same characters, helmed by Whedon but starring different actors and containing different writers would.
Your example of the Superman canon is an apt one.
I have the same general take on it that you do as well, I care about it to the extent that I want the tv show or book I'm reading by that author to fit. But I'm also flexible - since I've watched and read far too many stories like Superman, that have multiple canons.
At any rate - your explanation states these thoughts far clearer than I could. Thank you for it.
For me, it goes beyond characterization. "Canon" also must include the plot points seen on the television show. For example, if someone writes a fic which assumes, in the past, Connor didn't melt down in "Home", but went into therapy with Angel's help, that's not canon, that's AU. As much as I wish that's what actually happened on the show, that *isn't* what happened on the show, and I will not be happy with a fan fic that assumes that, unless I'm in a weird mood where I want to explore "what-if's". But since, for me, fan fic serves only the purpose of continuing the story I saw on screen, it has to follow on-screen plot points.
Where it gets sticky, of course, is where there is disagreement over what happened on screen.
Where it gets sticky, of course, is where there is disagreement over what happened on screen.
But this is true in regards to characterization as well. I'm picky about a couple of things when it comes to canon.
AU - as atpolittlebit put it - I have no problems as long as the characters make sense - such as The Wish. I see it as a "what-if" scenario and that fascinates me. That said, I'm picky - for example, I can't read fic where Buffy and Spike hook up after Becoming, or for that matter fic where Spike is sired by Angel - from my perspective they were *brothers* not father/son. More protegee and teacher if anything. Which is different. That's a personal thing.
In regards to Connor? I could probably read fic that ignored S4 or what happened in Home - see it as a What-If scenario. But, the character would have to fit what I saw on the screen in S4.
If you are veering from the storyline on screen, I need to know why, and how this changes the characters. It needs to make logical sense to me, or you have lost me.
Can't tell you how many fanfics I've started and dropped in midstream because they screwed up one of the characters or something just felt off to me. ex: Buffy being great at school and caring about school.
Yeah, I know. Scrollgirl already more or less convinced me with her post above.
It's not unlike well any story really - if you don't buy something the writer is telling you, you will jump ship. That's why writers have to fact check - readers can be so annoying...;-)
I've been following the discussion about canon with interest. I know I'm one who prefers fic that follows canon but I've come to realize that what I really prefer is fic that follows characterization. Which is not to say a character can't be written as deviating from their primary traits, but when they do I want a story that explains to me why. Even Joss (et al) did it directly with "The Wish". Few of the characters were anything like we'd come to expect but we knew why. In "When She Was Bad" Buffy came back to town as an 'uber-bitch' but by the end of the episode we, again, knew why.
I grew up reading comics during the 'Silver Age'. And I can definitely say that I preferred a story that was directly labeled "imaginary" to one that (to me) essentially erased everything because it was a dream. (I once read a four-book series of BtVS novels that went to some very interesting places only to press the reset button at the end to happily tell us it never happened). Imaginary, "what if" or alternate universes more or less announce that what I'm about to read is an exploration that wouldn't/couldn't happen in the official story. But even there, it's really characterization that I still look for, or reasons why. And for some reason, heh, "Buffy was mean to Spike this week so I wrote her as an weak, ugly bitch" isn't going to convince me to read. And, heheh, if it's "Xander and Spike get together for hot sexxoring" then that scene's gonna need a few reams of story showing how those two, Xander in particular, got to that point. (I suggest an alternate universe where they don't instinctively hate each other on first sight).
There are so many story possibilities that aren't/can't be in canon. Anything in the Buffy or Angel series that happened over the summer isn't in canon, for example, because there is no canon about it other than a detail or two. Hank buys Buffy lots of shoes between s1 and s2, the Scoobies bury the Master's bones during that same summer, somehow Buffy ends up waitressing between s2 and s3, Willow begins some serious training between s6 and s7, etc. But if the story is suppose to fit in between the known canon events, then it's the characterization that still remains the issue for me.
Sorry for babbling on, but thinking about it this time clarified some thoughts about the difference between 'canon' and 'characterization' for me.
No, thank you for taking the time to write this, you have managed to pinpoint how I feel about fanfic and canon.
The only criteria I have regarding a fanfic is does the characterization work? Do their motivations fit the characters they are based on? Or do they merely look the same as these characters and just happen to have the same names?
I've tried fanfic in which halfway through, I'm thinking, okay, no, Buffy would never do that. Spike would never say that. Xander does not act that way. And I can't imagine Willow acting like that. As you may have figured out from all those essays I wrote - I'm a character girl. It's the most important thing to me when I read a fanfic. If I don't find the writer's depiction of the character believable? I'm gone.
One of the reasons I'm so psyched about ATS S6 with Brian Lynch at the helm, is he is the only writer outside of the ones who wrote the tv shows, that I feel gets the ATS universe and had the characterization of Spike down cold. (The fact that Joss Whedon and Tim Minear agree with me, validates that.) I'm incredibly anal about that.
I'm even critical of the original writers when it comes to characterization - for example in Whedon's S8 Buffy, he has Buffy say a few things that she just would not say, unless she's merely spent far too much time with Xander. It took me out of the story. Sure the reference was cool, but I couldn't imagine the character saying it. If that makes sense.
Until I read your post, I didn't realize that this is what I care about - when it comes to canon. I could care less about the little details of the universe - or timeline - like whether or not Sunnydale still exists or who died in the alley, or if everyone is human. What matters to me is are these the characters I came to know or could they be anyone? The main problem with the Everyone is Human AU fanfics is the characters often feel hollow or like paper dolls, and the plots feel like romance novels I've read. Also too many fanfic writers make Buffy weak - they remove her strength...and that doesn't work for me. For me, Buffy was a tough customer, she could handle herself and never needed to be saved, she saved the guys, not the other way around. So many female fanfic writers for reasons that escape me seem to want to change that, flip it.
When I wrote her - I tried the first round to kill her off, but when I went inside the character, I realized it didn't work. This is a character who can find a way around problems, who is proactive and inventive.
So yes, I agree, it's not canon as far as the plot goes that I worry about, it's canon as far as "who" the characters are. Thank you for helping me figure that out.
This is why I liked discussing things on fanboards and online - it helps one figure things out.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 01:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 01:57 pm (UTC)Anywho...if you are enjoying them and neither love nor hate, just select love. It's the same as enjoyment or that's how I'm defining it. If you buy them - you more or less fit under that category. If you are truly ambivalent, pick don't care. The question has more to do with whether or not people think they shouldn't be around.
Thanks for commenting. Particularly regarding the canon thing - which is pretty much how I feel about canon.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 01:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 04:12 pm (UTC)Not really important to your poll, but I felt like sharing. ;)
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 04:51 pm (UTC)My not-so-brief answer is that, no, the comic books are not the same canon as the TV show. The Buffyverse is and always will be Joss Whedon's baby, no denying it. But there were many other creative powers involved in the TV show that aren't involved in the comics -- actors, directors, crew, composers, costumers, etc -- and Buffy the Vampire Slayer was as much about them as it was about Joss.
The best analogy would be Superman canon. There's the overarcing canon, which includes everything EVER that has used the name Superman. But comics canon =/= movie canon =/= Smallville =/= Lois and Clark =/= Bruce Timm cartoons, etc. Even within comics canon, there are contradictions, disputed canon, different trends in characterisation.
I think trying to figure out what is or is not canon is very important -- even if there is still some disagreement, it's good to debate, it's good to try to find common ground or at least decide where my boundaries lie versus your boundaries. We can't assume that my stop sign is your stop sign, then hope nobody gets hit by a car.
I mean, the simplest proof that canon is important? The next completely out-of-character fic that's posted. Sure, she's a vampire slayer and lives in Sunnydale and has a kid sister, Watcher, Scoobies, and a vampire hanging around. But if she's suddenly, with no explanation, meek and timid, stuttering and not at all quippy, unfashionable and good at chemistry, selfish to an extreme, I'm gonna call foul and say the author needs to damn well pay attention to what they're watching on TV.
Re your poll: I always care about canon. As a big ol' fangirl, I'm often obsessive about details. As a writer, I care about canon as far as I want to use it to serve my story. My missing scenes and futurefic are more canon dependent than my (slash) romances, which are more canon dependent than my AUs (characterisation is still canon, even if setting and plot aren't). As a reader, I still care about canon but I'm much more flexible. I read a LOT of fanfic, and I've learned to be tolerant of mildly out-of-character, out-of-canon writing. And I love AUs, genderbender, crossovers, crackfic, etc. As long as it's well-written, I'll probably give it a shot.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 05:50 pm (UTC)I actually agree with your take regarding both the importance of canon and how the comics should be treated within that.
You are right - there is a huge difference between a television series and a comic. Heroes is actually doing a good job of showing the differences and how those differences effect what happens.
In a tv series - Whedon has limitations and opportunities he does not have in comics. More people provide in-put. For example, an actor or actress may decide to say a line differently - and granted he does push for them to say it exactly as it was written, but he doesn't direct all the episodes either - so there are points in time they will say it differently. Tom Lenk for example often ad-libbed things that the writers left in because it made them laugh. He also does not have control over on-screen chemistry between actors. IF Buffy had been a comic from the beginning, I seriously doubt the Spike character would have had the arc he did or the Wesely character for that matter - the two actors who played those roles influenced the writers. It was Marsters who suggested to Whedon that Spike was sticking around Sunnydale because he loved Buffy.
Or the mere fact that Juliet Landau, Seth Green, Amber Benson became unavailable at certain points. So you are right.
I guess it comes down to how one defines canon. This is the frustrating thing about language - we do not always agree on the definition of a specific word. I define canon a little broader - it is whatever comes from the creator. But and this is a big but - how do you handle the fact that a story is the product of multiple creators? Whedon may be the one who got credit for writing and creating BTVS - but he didn't do it alone. Gellar,
et al deserve equal credit. David Fury sort of said this in an interview recently that the comics were great but they couldn't fall within the same canon as the tv series - any more, I'd state, than a whole new TV series based on BTVS and with the same characters, helmed by Whedon but starring
different actors and containing different writers would.
Your example of the Superman canon is an apt one.
I have the same general take on it that you do as well, I care about it to the extent that I want the tv show or book I'm reading by that author to fit. But I'm also flexible - since I've watched and read far too many stories like Superman, that have multiple canons.
At any rate - your explanation states these thoughts far clearer than I could. Thank you for it.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 03:38 am (UTC)Where it gets sticky, of course, is where there is disagreement over what happened on screen.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 02:30 pm (UTC)But this is true in regards to characterization as well. I'm picky about a couple of things when it comes to canon.
AU - as
In regards to Connor? I could probably read fic that ignored S4 or what happened in Home - see it as a What-If scenario. But, the character would have to fit what I saw on the screen in S4.
If you are veering from the storyline on screen, I need to know why, and how this changes the characters. It needs to make logical sense to me, or you have lost me.
Can't tell you how many fanfics I've started and dropped in midstream because they screwed up one of the characters or something just felt off to me. ex: Buffy being great at school and caring about school.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 05:34 pm (UTC)It's not unlike well any story really - if you don't buy something the writer is telling you, you will jump ship. That's why writers have to fact check - readers can be so annoying...;-)
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 08:10 pm (UTC)I grew up reading comics during the 'Silver Age'. And I can definitely say that I preferred a story that was directly labeled "imaginary" to one that (to me) essentially erased everything because it was a dream. (I once read a four-book series of BtVS novels that went to some very interesting places only to press the reset button at the end to happily tell us it never happened). Imaginary, "what if" or alternate universes more or less announce that what I'm about to read is an exploration that wouldn't/couldn't happen in the official story. But even there, it's really characterization that I still look for, or reasons why. And for some reason, heh, "Buffy was mean to Spike this week so I wrote her as an weak, ugly bitch" isn't going to convince me to read. And, heheh, if it's "Xander and Spike get together for hot sexxoring" then that scene's gonna need a few reams of story showing how those two, Xander in particular, got to that point. (I suggest an alternate universe where they don't instinctively hate each other on first sight).
There are so many story possibilities that aren't/can't be in canon. Anything in the Buffy or Angel series that happened over the summer isn't in canon, for example, because there is no canon about it other than a detail or two. Hank buys Buffy lots of shoes between s1 and s2, the Scoobies bury the Master's bones during that same summer, somehow Buffy ends up waitressing between s2 and s3, Willow begins some serious training between s6 and s7, etc. But if the story is suppose to fit in between the known canon events, then it's the characterization that still remains the issue for me.
Sorry for babbling on, but thinking about it this time clarified some thoughts about the difference between 'canon' and 'characterization' for me.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 12:10 am (UTC)The only criteria I have regarding a fanfic is does the characterization work? Do their motivations fit the characters they are based on? Or do they merely look the same as these characters and just happen to have the same names?
I've tried fanfic in which halfway through, I'm thinking, okay, no, Buffy would never do that. Spike would never say that. Xander does not act that way. And I can't imagine Willow acting like that. As you may have figured out from all those essays I wrote - I'm a character girl. It's the most important thing to me when I read a fanfic. If I don't find the writer's depiction of the character believable? I'm gone.
One of the reasons I'm so psyched about ATS S6 with Brian Lynch at the helm, is he is the only writer outside of the ones who wrote the tv shows, that I feel gets the ATS universe and had the characterization of Spike down cold. (The fact that Joss Whedon and Tim Minear agree with me, validates that.) I'm incredibly anal about that.
I'm even critical of the original writers when it comes to characterization - for example in Whedon's S8 Buffy, he has Buffy say a few things that she just would not say, unless she's merely spent far too much time with Xander. It took me out of the story. Sure the reference was cool, but I couldn't imagine the character saying it. If that makes sense.
Until I read your post, I didn't realize that this is what I care about - when it comes to canon. I could care less about the little details of the universe - or timeline - like whether or not Sunnydale still exists or who died in the alley, or if everyone is human. What matters to me is are these the characters I came to know or could they be anyone? The main problem with the Everyone is Human AU fanfics is the characters often feel hollow or like paper dolls, and the plots feel like romance novels I've read. Also too many fanfic writers make Buffy weak - they remove her strength...and that doesn't work for me. For me, Buffy was a tough customer, she could handle herself and never needed to be saved, she saved the guys, not the other way around. So many female fanfic writers for reasons that escape me seem to want to change that, flip it.
When I wrote her - I tried the first round to kill her off, but when I went inside the character, I realized it didn't work. This is a character who can find a way around problems, who is proactive and inventive.
So yes, I agree, it's not canon as far as the plot goes that I worry about, it's canon as far as "who" the characters are. Thank you for helping me figure that out.
This is why I liked discussing things on fanboards and online - it helps one figure things out.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 08:26 pm (UTC)"it's too soon for me to tell."
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 12:14 am (UTC)