Re your post aboutwhether the Buffy Season 8 comics are canon (http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/270108.html) and why we should or shouldn't care:
My not-so-brief answer is that, no, the comic books are not the same canon as the TV show. The Buffyverse is and always will be Joss Whedon's baby, no denying it. But there were many other creative powers involved in the TV show that aren't involved in the comics -- actors, directors, crew, composers, costumers, etc -- and Buffy the Vampire Slayer was as much about them as it was about Joss.
The best analogy would be Superman canon. There's the overarcing canon, which includes everything EVER that has used the name Superman. But comics canon =/= movie canon =/= Smallville =/= Lois and Clark =/= Bruce Timm cartoons, etc. Even within comics canon, there are contradictions, disputed canon, different trends in characterisation.
I think trying to figure out what is or is not canon is very important -- even if there is still some disagreement, it's good to debate, it's good to try to find common ground or at least decide where my boundaries lie versus your boundaries. We can't assume that my stop sign is your stop sign, then hope nobody gets hit by a car.
I mean, the simplest proof that canon is important? The next completely out-of-character fic that's posted. Sure, she's a vampire slayer and lives in Sunnydale and has a kid sister, Watcher, Scoobies, and a vampire hanging around. But if she's suddenly, with no explanation, meek and timid, stuttering and not at all quippy, unfashionable and good at chemistry, selfish to an extreme, I'm gonna call foul and say the author needs to damn well pay attention to what they're watching on TV.
Re your poll: I always care about canon. As a big ol' fangirl, I'm often obsessive about details. As a writer, I care about canon as far as I want to use it to serve my story. My missing scenes and futurefic are more canon dependent than my (slash) romances, which are more canon dependent than my AUs (characterisation is still canon, even if setting and plot aren't). As a reader, I still care about canon but I'm much more flexible. I read a LOT of fanfic, and I've learned to be tolerant of mildly out-of-character, out-of-canon writing. And I love AUs, genderbender, crossovers, crackfic, etc. As long as it's well-written, I'll probably give it a shot.
I actually agree with your take regarding both the importance of canon and how the comics should be treated within that.
You are right - there is a huge difference between a television series and a comic. Heroes is actually doing a good job of showing the differences and how those differences effect what happens.
In a tv series - Whedon has limitations and opportunities he does not have in comics. More people provide in-put. For example, an actor or actress may decide to say a line differently - and granted he does push for them to say it exactly as it was written, but he doesn't direct all the episodes either - so there are points in time they will say it differently. Tom Lenk for example often ad-libbed things that the writers left in because it made them laugh. He also does not have control over on-screen chemistry between actors. IF Buffy had been a comic from the beginning, I seriously doubt the Spike character would have had the arc he did or the Wesely character for that matter - the two actors who played those roles influenced the writers. It was Marsters who suggested to Whedon that Spike was sticking around Sunnydale because he loved Buffy. Or the mere fact that Juliet Landau, Seth Green, Amber Benson became unavailable at certain points. So you are right.
I guess it comes down to how one defines canon. This is the frustrating thing about language - we do not always agree on the definition of a specific word. I define canon a little broader - it is whatever comes from the creator. But and this is a big but - how do you handle the fact that a story is the product of multiple creators? Whedon may be the one who got credit for writing and creating BTVS - but he didn't do it alone. Gellar, et al deserve equal credit. David Fury sort of said this in an interview recently that the comics were great but they couldn't fall within the same canon as the tv series - any more, I'd state, than a whole new TV series based on BTVS and with the same characters, helmed by Whedon but starring different actors and containing different writers would.
Your example of the Superman canon is an apt one.
I have the same general take on it that you do as well, I care about it to the extent that I want the tv show or book I'm reading by that author to fit. But I'm also flexible - since I've watched and read far too many stories like Superman, that have multiple canons.
At any rate - your explanation states these thoughts far clearer than I could. Thank you for it.
For me, it goes beyond characterization. "Canon" also must include the plot points seen on the television show. For example, if someone writes a fic which assumes, in the past, Connor didn't melt down in "Home", but went into therapy with Angel's help, that's not canon, that's AU. As much as I wish that's what actually happened on the show, that *isn't* what happened on the show, and I will not be happy with a fan fic that assumes that, unless I'm in a weird mood where I want to explore "what-if's". But since, for me, fan fic serves only the purpose of continuing the story I saw on screen, it has to follow on-screen plot points.
Where it gets sticky, of course, is where there is disagreement over what happened on screen.
Where it gets sticky, of course, is where there is disagreement over what happened on screen.
But this is true in regards to characterization as well. I'm picky about a couple of things when it comes to canon.
AU - as atpolittlebit put it - I have no problems as long as the characters make sense - such as The Wish. I see it as a "what-if" scenario and that fascinates me. That said, I'm picky - for example, I can't read fic where Buffy and Spike hook up after Becoming, or for that matter fic where Spike is sired by Angel - from my perspective they were *brothers* not father/son. More protegee and teacher if anything. Which is different. That's a personal thing.
In regards to Connor? I could probably read fic that ignored S4 or what happened in Home - see it as a What-If scenario. But, the character would have to fit what I saw on the screen in S4.
If you are veering from the storyline on screen, I need to know why, and how this changes the characters. It needs to make logical sense to me, or you have lost me.
Can't tell you how many fanfics I've started and dropped in midstream because they screwed up one of the characters or something just felt off to me. ex: Buffy being great at school and caring about school.
Yeah, I know. Scrollgirl already more or less convinced me with her post above.
It's not unlike well any story really - if you don't buy something the writer is telling you, you will jump ship. That's why writers have to fact check - readers can be so annoying...;-)
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 04:51 pm (UTC)My not-so-brief answer is that, no, the comic books are not the same canon as the TV show. The Buffyverse is and always will be Joss Whedon's baby, no denying it. But there were many other creative powers involved in the TV show that aren't involved in the comics -- actors, directors, crew, composers, costumers, etc -- and Buffy the Vampire Slayer was as much about them as it was about Joss.
The best analogy would be Superman canon. There's the overarcing canon, which includes everything EVER that has used the name Superman. But comics canon =/= movie canon =/= Smallville =/= Lois and Clark =/= Bruce Timm cartoons, etc. Even within comics canon, there are contradictions, disputed canon, different trends in characterisation.
I think trying to figure out what is or is not canon is very important -- even if there is still some disagreement, it's good to debate, it's good to try to find common ground or at least decide where my boundaries lie versus your boundaries. We can't assume that my stop sign is your stop sign, then hope nobody gets hit by a car.
I mean, the simplest proof that canon is important? The next completely out-of-character fic that's posted. Sure, she's a vampire slayer and lives in Sunnydale and has a kid sister, Watcher, Scoobies, and a vampire hanging around. But if she's suddenly, with no explanation, meek and timid, stuttering and not at all quippy, unfashionable and good at chemistry, selfish to an extreme, I'm gonna call foul and say the author needs to damn well pay attention to what they're watching on TV.
Re your poll: I always care about canon. As a big ol' fangirl, I'm often obsessive about details. As a writer, I care about canon as far as I want to use it to serve my story. My missing scenes and futurefic are more canon dependent than my (slash) romances, which are more canon dependent than my AUs (characterisation is still canon, even if setting and plot aren't). As a reader, I still care about canon but I'm much more flexible. I read a LOT of fanfic, and I've learned to be tolerant of mildly out-of-character, out-of-canon writing. And I love AUs, genderbender, crossovers, crackfic, etc. As long as it's well-written, I'll probably give it a shot.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-01 05:50 pm (UTC)I actually agree with your take regarding both the importance of canon and how the comics should be treated within that.
You are right - there is a huge difference between a television series and a comic. Heroes is actually doing a good job of showing the differences and how those differences effect what happens.
In a tv series - Whedon has limitations and opportunities he does not have in comics. More people provide in-put. For example, an actor or actress may decide to say a line differently - and granted he does push for them to say it exactly as it was written, but he doesn't direct all the episodes either - so there are points in time they will say it differently. Tom Lenk for example often ad-libbed things that the writers left in because it made them laugh. He also does not have control over on-screen chemistry between actors. IF Buffy had been a comic from the beginning, I seriously doubt the Spike character would have had the arc he did or the Wesely character for that matter - the two actors who played those roles influenced the writers. It was Marsters who suggested to Whedon that Spike was sticking around Sunnydale because he loved Buffy.
Or the mere fact that Juliet Landau, Seth Green, Amber Benson became unavailable at certain points. So you are right.
I guess it comes down to how one defines canon. This is the frustrating thing about language - we do not always agree on the definition of a specific word. I define canon a little broader - it is whatever comes from the creator. But and this is a big but - how do you handle the fact that a story is the product of multiple creators? Whedon may be the one who got credit for writing and creating BTVS - but he didn't do it alone. Gellar,
et al deserve equal credit. David Fury sort of said this in an interview recently that the comics were great but they couldn't fall within the same canon as the tv series - any more, I'd state, than a whole new TV series based on BTVS and with the same characters, helmed by Whedon but starring
different actors and containing different writers would.
Your example of the Superman canon is an apt one.
I have the same general take on it that you do as well, I care about it to the extent that I want the tv show or book I'm reading by that author to fit. But I'm also flexible - since I've watched and read far too many stories like Superman, that have multiple canons.
At any rate - your explanation states these thoughts far clearer than I could. Thank you for it.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 03:38 am (UTC)Where it gets sticky, of course, is where there is disagreement over what happened on screen.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 02:30 pm (UTC)But this is true in regards to characterization as well. I'm picky about a couple of things when it comes to canon.
AU - as
In regards to Connor? I could probably read fic that ignored S4 or what happened in Home - see it as a What-If scenario. But, the character would have to fit what I saw on the screen in S4.
If you are veering from the storyline on screen, I need to know why, and how this changes the characters. It needs to make logical sense to me, or you have lost me.
Can't tell you how many fanfics I've started and dropped in midstream because they screwed up one of the characters or something just felt off to me. ex: Buffy being great at school and caring about school.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-02 05:34 pm (UTC)It's not unlike well any story really - if you don't buy something the writer is telling you, you will jump ship. That's why writers have to fact check - readers can be so annoying...;-)