The TV Cult Meme Revisited and Quibbled Over by a TV slut

[shadowkat]

Regarding that meme on TV Guide's top 30 Cult TV Shows? Have a few quibbles regarding their definition of cult, which reminds me of a lengthy lunch debate I had with a guy I dated a few years back at Evil Company. He said that only fantasy and sci-fi shows were *cult*. I said, no, a sci-fi show might not be cult. X-Files for example had jumped out of cult status. Cult - I informed him - was a tv series, film or book that was not liked by the *mainstream* or not a *best-seller* - it had a specific niche or fringe audience. People adored it, but they didn't talk about it in public and it wasn't something you saw in the Neilson ratings. It's the sort of thing - that someone will hesistantly admit to in an elevator and you'll stop and say cool! ME too!

In short - a show like The Sopranos was NOT cult. While Buffy the Vampire Slayer definitely was. Cult was not the same as *excellent* or *horrid* - what it meant was a show that may or may not be loved by critics, was often dismissed, and never taken seriously by the powers that be - the best seller lists, Nielsen's, EW's and mainstream media - and you have to hunt on your tv dial - because it appears at weird times, jumps channels, and well is hard to find. CULT is a show or book or film you discover through your friends. Not the media. It's not advertised. It's not well marketed. Until after we've discovered it - long after. Yet, at the same time, CULT is also something that has a certain quality or lasting resonance. Something that scholars will obsess over. CULT is an artwork people OBSESS over. Not easily dismissed by its fans.

Cult often has a weird title. Like The Rocky Horror Picture Show or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It's just left of center. Off the beaten track. Cult never gets awards except from fringe groups. And often has obsessive fans who go to conventions to celebrate it or late night viewings or who collect everything associated with it. They debate it vehemently but don't tell co-workers.

Course many people disagree with my definition. The guy I dated did. We ended up calling a stalemate. (Or he just shut-up and let me win.)

Shows that I don't believe can be cult because they are celebrated by the mainstream and consider pop= Lost, Heroes, Six Feet Under, Sopranoes, Seinfield, MASH, Hill Street Blues, Ugly Betty, Grey's Anatomy, Star Wars (although it does have weird obsessive fans, but they aren't quite the same as cult fans) and Harry Potter. (Note the difference - Pop = popular items. CULT = those things that live under the wire.)

Here's my list of CULT TV shows that I know about, in no particular order:

1. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
2. Star Trek (the original one)
3. Voyager
4. Deep Space Nine
5. Angel
6. Dark Angel
7. American Gothic
8. Highlander
9. Xenia
10. Space Above and Beyond
11. Firefly
12. Wonderfalls
13. Dead Like Me
14. Doctor Who
15. BattleStar Galatica2
16. Jericho
17. HEx
18. Forever Knight
19. Supernatural
20. Star Gate
21. Farscape
22. Mystery Theater 2000
23. Veronica Mars
24. Strangers with Candy
25. Rosewell
26. BlackAdder
27. Monty Python
28. Arrested Development
29. Profit
30. H&R PuffnStuff
31. Twin Peaks...which jumped sort of to the mainstream
32. Smallville
33. Tru Calling

Cult's the shows that you worry about getting renewed. That you have to hunt down. And you keep trying to get people to like, or you keep to yourself. They aren't water cooler chatter.

They are things like Rocky Horror Picture Show, Tremors...buried at the bottom of the video store. Not in wide release. On late at night. OR out of print.

What do you think?

Agree? Disagree?

Comments

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

And these definitions can be fluid.

X-Files, to me, started off as a cult show. It eventually transcended "cult" status. And by the end, had probably sunk back off the radar into cult status again.

"Cult" was Seinfeld in the first two seasons, when it bounced around, seemed like it was never on, and no one liked it. "Not Cult" is Seinfeld once it became one of the most widely celebrated shows on TV.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I do agree... but it is always a debate:
I shouldn't add 'Heroes', but then 'Lost' shouldn't be on the list either.
Was 'X-Files' that big? I mean what were it's Nelson numbers actually? Because although everyone we know online watched it, I'm not sure it was that widely watched across the board.
Star Trek (original) was definitely cult
Star Trek: the Next Generation was probably main stream...
but then I think Deep Space 9 & Voyager both went back to cult status.

Many shows have still not been discovered, and maybe never will be, by most people:
Wonderfalls
Dead Like Me

I don't think 'Simpsons' belongs on that list, I can't think of a person I know who hasn't seen it several times, and does it have a cult following?

luckily I find this kind of discussion endlessly interesting (LOL)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And these definitions can be fluid

Yes. Agreed.

On the fence about this - is cult something before it gets hot? Or something that just has a huge underground following and may or may not get hot = popular?

For example - is Seinfield, Cheers, Hill Street Blues, and St. Elsewhere truly cult shows? OR "cool" shows that got hot?

X-Files - hits cult, you have conventions on it.
And while it did hit mainstream, it is also outside of it. People tend to advertise less about it.

You can tell co-workers you lovvve Seinfield, but less likely to mention X-Files. Although back in the day, when it was hard to find - it was cultish, sort of like the comedy central series - It's Always Sunny in Philadephia.

I like to go by how video stores define it - those films that people adore, but you can never find. Have late night sing-a-longs to in grungy theaters? Things like American Gothic, BTVS...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Was 'X-Files' that big? I mean what were it's Nelson numbers actually? Because although everyone we know online watched it, I'm not sure it was that widely watched across the board

Oh it was. Trust me on that one. Friends who wouldn't touch sci-fi or fantasy, loved X-Files. They just didn't discover it until after the movie came out. And the movie did good biz - better than Serenity (definitely a cult film). You talk to non-sci-fi fantasy fans and they'll list X-Files and Star Trek Next Generation as favorites. Twilight Zone was similar - everyone watched. I know very few people of my generation that did not watch or see an episode of STNG, Twilight Zone, or X-Files. Also all three were nominated for emmys. Gillian Armstrong and David Duchovy were up for nods more than once - made history as one of the few sci-fi programs to get a emmy nod.

Lost, Heroes, Ugly Betty, and The Simpsons aren't cult. The Simpsons was when it premiered on Tracy Ullman Show (which was cult), but now it's mainstream. Heroes - definitely mainstream - top of the Neilsen ratings.
X-Files was only in the Neilsen top 20. STNG was in the cable version.
Lost - definitely NOT cult - it's always in the Neilsen's and people who don't tend to like cult shows adore it. Lost is *popular*.

Wonderfalls, Dead Like Me, Firefly, Tru Calling, BTVS, Angel, Dresden Files, Eureka, BSG = all cult.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I agree, and have edited my 'add ons' to the meme at my lj accordingly.

But your point about X-Files above is interesting, that it is kind of cult now because it had conventions and people would hesitate to boast about loving the show (the way no would hesitate saying they loved Seinfeld or Friends).

It was like loving X-Files was cult early on because it was pretty much a standing joke that only geeks watched it, but by the time it was ending it was a huge hit, and now years later it is still syndicated and still watched, but maybe mostly by cult fans again?

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

What about a show like "Slings and Arrows"? I think it has won a number of Canadian awards, but nobody in the states knows about it. It shows on the Sundance Channel, I've heard.

Great show, btw.

Or what about "MI5/Spooks"? It's a monster hit in Britain, but very cult-y in the U.S., I'd say.

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

Or "Due South," another Canadian cult show?

[cjlasky.livejournal.com]

Agree that X-Files, LOST and HEROES aren't really cult shows; they're fantasy/sci-fi shows that happened to catch on with the general public. To me, cult shows are:

1) Shows with a certain quirkiness about them that virtually guarantees they'll be limited to a small audience. MST3000 could never break out big, because I can't see the majority of Americans clamoring to watch a guy and his robots snark on bad movies. BUFFY? How many people could never get past the name?

2) Shows before their time. X-Files hit the mainstream because America was in just the right mood for Chris Carter's paranoid ramblings. He's never had another success. Comedies like Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared should have been smashes, but Judd Apatow's brand of comedy just didn't catch on in the 1990s and early 00s. But Apatow has just scored with two $100 million big screen comedies (40 Year-Old Virgin and Knocked Up), so his time has finally come.

3) Shows killed by network bungling. Wonderfalls. Firefly. Shows that desperately needed some nurturing, but received the axe. I'm looking forward to/dreading Bryan Fuller's Pushing Daisies, because I can see another quick and bloody death ahead.

P.S. I think Star Trek is now thoroughly mainstream and has outgrown its original cult status.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Good break down. Yes, I'd agree with your definitions and you've managed to clarify for me why I don't think Star Trek really qualifies as cult any longer, nor for that matter Due South - which was popular in the Us for several seasons and in the Neilsons. Same deal with Northern Exposure which don't really fit that category.

Shows with a certain quirkiness about them that virtually guarantees they'll be limited to a small audience.

Main criteria - I think. Has to have that certain quirkiness. Shows like Wonderfalls, Firefly, Buffy, Angel, Arrested Development, Mystery Science Theater, Red Dwarf, Farscape, and Doctor Who all had it.

2. Shows before their time - tough one since some of these shows are actually mainstream or would be if it weren't for a)market saturation or b)people aren't in the mood. Judd Apatow is a good example.

3.Shows killed by network bungling. Wonderfalls. Firefly. Shows that desperately needed some nurturing, but received the axe. I'm looking forward to/dreading Bryan Fuller's Pushing Daisies, because I can see another quick and bloody death ahead.

Bryan Fuller is the same guy, I think, that did Dead Like Me and Wonderfalls. Not positive. So yep, me too on Pushing Daisies.
It feels quirky and quirky tends to turn off mainstream audiences. (I'm the opposite - the quirkier it is, the more likely I'll watch it. More mainstream? More likely I won't...LOL!)

Most cult shows fall under this category, I think. The hard to find, short-lived, picked up by cable, foreign imports.

Forever Knight was a great example - a Canadian import and riff off of a Rick Springsteen made for tv movie/pilot.

Completely agree about Star Trek - much like Star Wars and X-Files = it has become thoroughly mainstream. BattleStar Galatica is still cult, although it sits on the cusp. As is the Gates. But of the sci-fi series - I'd say the best example of a cult series is Farscape. It's too quirky for mainstream, was cancelled before its time, jumped time slots, brought back by fans, and hard to get a hold of - the DVD's are outrageously expensive.
And it has a small but loyal following.

In some ways it's more cult than even Doctor Who.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure you can categorize a series that is only available in Canada and an import as "cult".

There's a lot of those. Slings & Arrows feels cultish to me, though. Since it is hard to find, available in the US but not broadly. And has a small following.

But not Due South - which was on network television in the US and hit the Nielson's. It was pretty popular back in the 80s? I think. I remember it being on. Watched a few episodes. It's how Brendan Fraiser got his break.
I don't think it's cult any more than Northern Exposure was.

But would go along with Slings & Arrows.

[cjlasky.livejournal.com]

Oh absolutely--Farscape is the definition of a cult show. It's cult when you ask rabid fans of the SAME GENRE, and they shrug and say, "Huh. You know, for some reason I could never get into that one." (For me, it was Arrested Development. Saw what the creator was trying to do, even respected it, but I hated most of the characters and the obsessive self-referentiality drove me nuts.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

It's cult when people who love the genre don't get it. What? You like that?
Huh?

The 4400 is cult.
Heroes is mainstream.

Farscape is cult.
Star Gate is more mainstream.

People get confused because they think *cult* means the show is *better* than a mainstream show. Not necessarily true. Just because something is *cult* doesn't mean it is good nor does it mean its bad. What it means is that it is something most people don't know about. Under the wire.

Arrested Development is another great example. (I respected it - saw what they were trying to do - but like you the self-referential humor got on my nerves.)

AD = cult
The Office = mainstream

Buffy =cult
Charmed = mainstream (most people know about it.)

The Family Guy = cult
The Simpsons = mainstream

The X-Files = mainstream
Space Above and Beyond = cult

Red Dwarf, BlackAdder = both cult.

On the fence about Supernatural - most people seem to know it.
But it does have the trappings of cult.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Hey, now. You can tell people you like Seinfeld. Tell people you loooovvvvee it. OTOH. That's probably one of the big distinctions isn't it?

On the fence about this - is cult something before it gets hot? Or something that just has a huge underground following and may or may not get hot = popular?

Seinfeld might be an odd example - it wasn't merely unnoticed in early years and then "hot" later. Seinfeld, in it's first seasons, was a show that people mostly hated. And even at it's height, most Seinfeld fans hadn't seen those episodes and wouldn't have liked them if they did.

Possibly Unrepresentative Anecdote Alert:

I distinctly remember, back in college when everybody got together to watch Friends & Seinfeld (the first season of Friends) one of my buddies saying "anybody who claims to have liked this show from the beginning is lying" -- and that's the sort of fan a cult show has. Friends in contrast, people were always "this show is pretty okay" about from the get-go.

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

Brenden Frasier was on "Due South"? Who did he play?

I never watched much of that show, but I never knew that.

I did know that one of the cylons on BSG was the co-lead (one of the "Rays").

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

But that's true about numerous shows.

Hill Street Blues
St. Elsewhere
Cheers
Seinfield
The Office
My Name is Earl
Married with Children
The Simpsons

So, no, I don't think you can call those *cult*.

Cult isn't a show people hated and you liked.

Cult is a show that lives below the radar. Like Arrested Development.
Or Veronica Mars. Shows that don't make network. Or if they do, don't last.

And I don't think you can call something cult just because people didn't notice it until later.

A good example is well Farscape. No one knows about it - but the die-hard fans. Another cult hit - is David Chappell - which few people know about.
SCTV was cult. As was Guys in the Hall.

I was one of those people who preferred the early seasons of Seinfield to the latter ones. I loved the first three or four seasons, got bored with it once it caught on. And followed it when it hopped about. But I wouldn't call it cult. Any more than I'd have called Cheers cult - a show I also loved in the first two seasons, when no one seemed to watch it but me.

Fame - is an example of a cult tv series. Few people watched it. It was left of center.

So, no, I don't you can call Seinfield cult - just because people loved or hated it. That's not cult in my opinion.

I think cjl actually nails the definition below.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes. X-Files is a weird one. It sort of hit mainstream than dropped into cult again. I think it has a lot to do with those last seasons which lost a lot of people.

Twin Peaks is another example of a show that although it obtained *mainstream* interest - really is a cult series. It lost half the mainstream audience in the second season - hence its departure. Like X-Files, it's a series that while it hit mainstream, sunk back into cult, unlike Star Trek which is firmly part of mainstream now - or at least STNG is. The original, Voyager, and DS9 not so much - you had to hunt for those.

When I think of cult sci-fi, I think of: Farscape, Space Above and Beyond, Doctor Who, Space 1999, Battlestar Galatica, and Babylon 5 those series that were under the radar. You can tell a true cult sci-fi fan by saying: BSG?
And they respond - "cool! YEs!!!" or saying Tardis - and they know what you are talking about.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

He played the Canadian Mountie - the co-lead. It's been awhile since I've seen it - but saw a screen-cap on teaatheford recently - and that's Brendan Fraiser - whose apparently Canadian.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I think I would want to add to the 'cult' definition shows that are kept alive by obsessive fans long after the mainstream population have forgotten about them. That would mean like: X-Files, like Twin Peaks, is only of interest to cult fans. But Seinfeld and Friends are syndicated everywhere and still being rewatched by everyone on the planet.

I think that this is true of a lot of great films too, where they pretty much disappear from view except for film students or genre fans who keep them alive (not like main stream old movies like Casablanca or Gone With the Wind that everyone will see without having to seek them out).

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

Branden Fraser is Canadian, I think, but Paul Gross played the lead in "Due South"...the same actor who's the lead (crazy director) in "Slings and Arrows."

Though, they do kind of look alike.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think I would want to add to the 'cult' definition shows that are kept alive by obsessive fans long after the mainstream population have forgotten about them.

Yes. That's the key ingredient I was hunting for. Thank you.

It's what distinguishes BattleStar Galatica from say Time Tunnel or Quantum Leap or Now & Again.

It's also how cult films are defined. Rocky Horror Picture Show is an example - a movie that bombed, but was brought alive by its cult fans.
Tremors - same deal. Happens a lot with horror films. The Evil Dead - by Sam Rami - are cult films. So is Donnie Darko.

Wizard of OZ which also bombed when it first came out - is NOT cult, because it became part of pop culture.

Firefly is a cult series. Serenity a cult film.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer cult film and series.

Star Wars? not so much. Nor is for that matter Star Trek any longer. Star Trek was cult however back in the 70's and 60's.

I think that's a crucial part of the definition.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The main character's name was also Benton Fraiser - LOL! No wonder.

It was pretty popular in the US though - last four seasons and was on network tv. I didn't watch most of it - not my thing.