Buffy S8 - Beautiful Sunset Revisted - is Twilight Redeemable or even Justified?

[shadowkat]

So, after the Twilight spoiler...where Allie and others are suggesting that Twilight isn't really a villian or big bad, and that he is redeemable. I went back and re-read the issue where Buffy and Twilight fight, and Twilight critically injures Satsu - putting her in the hospital. I was curious to see if it was possible to redeem Twilight or see Twilight in a positive light, without sending an anti-feminist and sexist, not to mention misogynistic message. I don't believe it is, but I'm open to other views on this score.



Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).

Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.

Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)

[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]

Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.

Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).

Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.

Buffy: I get used to things real fast.

Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)

Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.

Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.

Buffy: Twilight. That's you.

Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?

Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...

Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:

Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?

Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....

What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.

Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.

Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.

So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?

Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?

This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.

How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.

And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?

What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?

Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?



[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.

ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

The interesting thing about the fight is that this is the place where Buffy meets Twilight and he has his first chance to pass on any information to her. IF Twilight - whoever he may be ;-) - has some big secret he cannot tell Buffy as himself, then shouldn't this be the situation where he at least gives her a chance to know what exactly it is she's accused of, give her a chance to know what it is he's trying to stop? If, as some people have suggested, there's a very real prophecy that means the Slayers must be stopped and he doesn't really want to commit all-out genocide on Slayers but has to, why does he do the opposite - reaffirm Buffy's resolve to defend the Slayers against this insane rambling misogynist? Why not tell her "Here's what I know will happen: Bla bla bla. Now, either you can stop it in some way or I'll have to." He doesn't do that here. He doesn't ever, either as himself or by passing the information on to Buffy through someone she trusts. If he, whoever he is, knows Buffy so well, he knows she has a habit if figuring out solutions to dilemmas. But instead, he speaks in riddles, provokes people into opposing him, and keeps everyone guessing what it is he's trying to achieve - which is fine if you're evil and want to keep killing innocent people, but if not...? A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

But instead, he speaks in riddles, provokes people into opposing him, and keeps everyone guessing what it is he's trying to achieve - which is fine if you're evil and want to keep killing innocent people, but if not...? A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend.

Angel has never exactly been Mr. Forthcoming. And think back to how he "helped" Buffy in season 1.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

If it's evil by incompetence, I'd say it's still Kafkaesque and counterproductive in the extreme - assuming that he doesn't think killing thousands of innocent people is a perfectly good plan A, in which he's very competently evil. Plus, at least in the TV series, Angel came quite a long way since season 1. For starters, since "Prophecy Girl", he knows that Buffy's very existence flies in the face of prophecy.

(I was trying to follow Shadowkat's wish to have this post free of THAT spoiler, but... Sorry.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

* ...in which CASE he's very competent at being evil.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I don't think that it will turn out to be the case that the story is as simple as Angel deciding to save the world by becoming an evil mass murderer. If that is the story, I agree that here, like in so many other places, Joss would owe us more story on pain of having left huge plot holes like the ones you identify in his wake. Now, it looks like season 8 is so riddled with plot holes that it's more hole than story, true. But there's got to be some limit to it, right? That's why I prefer my option #3. Things as they seem is all bad math. My brain can't help but gravitate to the conclusion that things are not as they seem. It's probably a stupid brain. But it's really quite persistent on this point.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I don't think that it will turn out to be the case that the story is as simple as Angel deciding to save the world by becoming an evil mass murderer.

I certainly hope not. On the other hand, I'm scratching my head as to what other motivations could possibly be better. Oh well. I didn't mean to get into this again. My brain is a bit stubborn as well. :-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

(I was trying to follow Shadowkat's wish to have this post free of THAT spoiler, but... Sorry.)

Appreciate the attempt...but I think I lost that battle with the first comment. ;-)

Tis okay, I was hoping to have a broader discussion with folks who aren't spoiled, but they appear to be avoiding all posts on the topic. And to be honest, until the Angel reveal - I was responding to the whole Twilight thing very differently as I think we all were. So the discussion may require the spoiler? (shrugs)

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Unless he's being forced to do whatever it is he's doing and he's deliberately acting like an arsehole to make Buffy fight him more vigorously. Which would be just like Angel.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Angel as puppet? Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

If, as some people have suggested, there's a very real prophecy that means the Slayers must be stopped and he doesn't really want to commit all-out genocide on Slayers but has to, why does he do the opposite - reaffirm Buffy's resolve to defend the Slayers against this insane rambling misogynist? Why not tell her "Here's what I know will happen: Bla bla bla. Now, either you can stop it in some way or I'll have to."

Suppose that the theory is correct, and Angel genuinely believes that he has to kill all 1800 new Slayers. (He can leave Buffy and Faith alive).

What, exactly, is he going to think that telling Buffy his plan would achieve?

"Hi, Buffy. I need to kill all those women you've empowered and helped."
"Really? Darn. Never mind, I'll help you."

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that: (a) Angel would expect Buffy to fight him with every last breath in her body. This is the woman who was prepared to let the entire world go to hell rather than kill her sister, after all.

(b) Even if he could convince her, Angel doesn't want to. Killing those 1800 innocent young women would be an act of evil, even if it's a necessary one. Angel sees himself as already evil, already tainted. He sees Buffy as pure, and he wouldn't want to corrupt her, bring her down to his level. He's a mass murderer already; she isn't.

No. Much better - in his eyes - to take the burden on himself and let Buffy believe he's the bad guy. Even act evil to convince her of that (and, not incidentally, make sure the collection of demons and sorcerors he's gathered around himself continue to regard him as a worthy leader). After all, he knows Buffy "meant well", and - to Angel's way of thinking - it would be cruel beyond words to let her know that she herself almost caused the apocalypse.

Now okay, you and I know - because this is a work of fiction - that it's likely Buffy would find a third solution. It's her trademark, pretty much. But Angel doesn't know that. If he's taking drastic action I think it's safe to assume that he's already explored all the alternative options and concluded that none of them would work. So now, he just wants to get on with the job, and not waste time messing around with trying to convince Buffy he's right. After all, Buffy made it clear numerous times that she doesn't want or need his help; so why should he ask for hers?

And maybe some of his evidence comes from mystical visions from the Powers That Be, or oracles summoned from a hell-dimension or whatever, and showing Buffy his proof would be impossible anyway.

No. I don't deny that your criticisms of Angel's plan are valid, at least if the Buffyverse were an ideal world; but I think Angel's actions - if we assume the "kill 1800 to save 6 billion" scenario is correct - are entirely in character and much more believable for him, in context than your alternative.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

What, exactly, is he going to think that telling Buffy his plan would achieve?

He could start by telling her what the problem is. Give her a choice of whether or not to know what she was up against, and possibly (since she knows a lot more about the spell than he does) come up with some other solution. Of course, I'm assuming that Angel doesn't want to kill thousands of innocents and potentially sacrifice millions more with the alleged "Vampires are cool now" thing; if he doesn't want to do that, then he'll want to examine his options. Then he'll want to double-check his sources. If he's too scared to call up Buffy personally, there are options. We know for a fact he hasn't told Willow, who's behind the spell, and with whom he does get along. We know for a fact he hasn't told Faith, with whom he also gets along with. Hell, he could take out an ad in the paper.

Much better - in his eyes - to take the burden on himself and let Buffy believe he's the bad guy.

"Believe"? I'd say "prove," but that's me.

But Angel doesn't know that.

Because he's never had to face ambiguous - again, hypothetically - prophecies before? If anyone knows that there's usually a loophole in prophecies, it's Angel. If anyone knows that Buffy usually foils them, it's Angel. His first meeting with Buffy? She foiled a prophecy within 72 hours. I know he's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but come on. He knows that. And yet he jumps to Crush Kill Destroy? And continues the massacre after they've been good little girls and depowered themselves?

it would be cruel beyond words to let her know that she herself almost caused the apocalypse.

yes, I see now how he's being really kind by blowing up girls in their beds. Sorry. But I can't really buy the "self-sacrifice" angle when what he's actually doing is sacrificing others and then feeling a little bad about it (again, hypothetically, since we've seen absolutely zero indication of him being sorry).

No. I don't deny that your criticisms of Angel's plan are valid, at least if the Buffyverse were an ideal world; but I think Angel's actions - if we assume the "kill 1800 to save 6 billion" scenario is correct - are entirely in character and much more believable for him, in context than your alternative.

I don't necessarily agree, since I think Angel essentially tries to be a good person and this is clearly the exact opposite. It certainly flies in the face of "if nothing we do matters all that matters is what we do." But I'm not saying that it's impossible for him to decide to do this. Given whatever justification for his actions they pull out, it might even be the most obvious solution - just like he chose to let Jasmine have free reign for the greater good, and... Oh, wait. But then I have no clue what he's been up to in the IDW line lately.

I would, however, argue that if he's doing this without having exhausted all other options, then his good intentions - like all terrorists' - or character flaws don't make his actions any less deplorable. All that "champion" talk was for nought. He gave in, he's a villain, de facto worse than almost every Big Bad either of them has ever faced. Which, to me, is a dull and unfair end to a great character, even if they do have it make sense.

The thing is that I don't think Joss is going to do that. The setup as it looks now could (if you let it) ruin either Buffy completely (by declaring that the universe simply can't function if you empower women) or ruin Angel (by declaring that redemption really isn't possible at all). He's going to find some other way. That will have to involve a moral justification for how Angel can become an evil overlord who'd make Angelus green with envy and not get a stake through the heart for his troubles, however Buffy eventually solves it. And considering that "for the greater good" has never once been an acceptable excuse in the Whedonverse, that will be really hard to sell.

But then again, this is all hypothetical, and it'll happen however it'll happen.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

He could start by telling her what the problem is. Give her a choice of whether or not to know what she was up against

And that would achieve what, in practical terms? Like I said in the original post; now Buffy would herself face the anguish of having to either kill her friends and followers or see the world end. Angel hopes to spare her that.

It seems to me you're approaching this from the perspective of the calm rationalist sitting in his armchair who knows this is a work of fiction, rather than looking at what Angel - the character Angel, as developed over 8 and a bit seasons of TV - would decide to do.


potentially sacrifice millions more with the alleged "Vampires are cool now" thing

All the evidence we've seen on-page indicates that the "vampires are cool now" thing is saving far more lives than it's taking. Vampires have realised that it's safer to feed WITHOUT killing.

Not to mention that because they've all come out into the public eye, it will be much easier to kill them all if public opinion changes back that it would be if they'd stayed in the shadows. That's a plan Lord Vetinari would be proud of. :-)


Because he's never had to face ambiguous - again, hypothetically - prophecies before?

Well, there was the one Sahjahn faked, and the one Lindsey and Eve faked. But in Angel's experience, I'd say that prophecies turn out true far more often than false. It's a matter of establishing the prophet's bona fides rather than finding a loophole in the prophecy itself.


I see now how he's being really kind by blowing up girls in their beds.

If he has to do that anyway, is it kinder to tell them they're going to die in advance, or kill them without warning?


I think Angel essentially tries to be a good person and this is clearly the exact opposite.

Did Angel ever once reproach Buffy for stabbing him through the heart and sending him to hell? Did he tell her she made the wrong decision?

It seems to me that Angel is much more about fighting the good fight whatever the cost than about maintaining some notional state of purity. He also has a huge martyr complex.

See his ideal solution to the problem of Connor at the end of S4... Angel thinks that keeping his loved ones in ignorance so they can lead a happy life is a good thing.


I would, however, argue that if he's doing this without having exhausted all other options, then his good intentions - like all terrorists' - or character flaws don't make his actions any less deplorable.

No argument from me here. That's why I take it as read that he has exhausted all the other options (or at least believes he has). The only other alternatives are that he's either turned utterly evil (Angelus), or that he's being possessed or controlled in some way, or that most of the actions we're been blaming on "Twilight" have in fact been done by someone else.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

And that would achieve what, in practical terms? Like I said in the original post; now Buffy would herself face the anguish of having to either kill her friends and followers or see the world end. Angel hopes to spare her that.

Assuming the one and only solution that's even remotely conceivable is killing all Slayers, maybe. There's a reason both Angel and Buffy used to do research. There's a reason Angel often refused to accept something he was told was a done deal.

It seems to me you're approaching this from the perspective of the calm rationalist sitting in his armchair who knows this is a work of fiction, rather than looking at what Angel - the character Angel, as developed over 8 and a bit seasons of TV - would decide to do.

It doesn't seem to be the same interpretation of the character as yours, but I'd argue that I'm seeing it from the perspective that Angel - as presented in the TV series - isn't first and foremost someone who kills innocents because it's easier than picking up a phone. I think where we differ is that you take it as a given that Angel is doing this, and then try to justify it; whereas I look at Angel finding out something along the lines that you're suggesting, and try to figure out how he'd react. And I don't think his first solution would be to turn into a slightly broodier Dalek.

All the evidence we've seen on-page indicates that the "vampires are cool now" thing is saving far more lives than it's taking. Vampires have realised that it's safer to feed WITHOUT killing.

I'd say that's debatable, at best; Harmony is shown killing people as part of her TV show - not just Soledad - and saying live on TV that vampires eat humans for dinner. The vamps in the TOTV one-shot seemed to not even comprehend the difference between killing and not killing. The vamps in #24 and #25 clearly haven't gotten the message. Then again, that whole storyline is so vague that it's hard to tell.

If he has to do that anyway

And it's exactly that "if" that I'm debating, given that he hasn't even checked with the people who know more about the spell than anyone else.

Did Angel ever once reproach Buffy for stabbing him through the heart and sending him to hell? Did he tell her she made the wrong decision?

She didn't. But she stabbed Angel, not thousands of other people. Plus, when has Angel ever not felt responsible for Angelus' actions?

He also has a huge martyr complex.

Agreed. But again, I just don't see "murderer" and "martyr" as synonyms. There's a reason there's no Saint Herod.

That's why I take it as read that he has exhausted all the other options (or at least believes he has).

Except we know he hasn't. Or at least we think we know. It's possible, of course, that Willow or Giles or Andrew etc has been talking to him and decided to keep it to themselves for whatever reason, though that would leave us with the same questions about them.

or that most of the actions we're been blaming on "Twilight" have in fact been done by someone else

Oh come on, Jeanty's likenesses aren't that bad. ;-)

That's... probably my last word on it. I don't think we're going to get any closer to the meat of it without more info. Even if speculating is fun, and your theory does make a lot of sense - it just needs to be ridiculously watertight if there's to be any hope of salvaging the character without essentially saying that all those supposedly empowered women he murdered were expendable anyway.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

[As an aside nodding along with most of your arguments here, as well as some of the others...you are doing a good job of pinpointing my own problems with this. How can they resolve it without ruining one or the other of the two shows? I know Allie says it is about relationships...but how does B/A factor in here?]

Oh, wait. But then I have no clue what he's been up to in the IDW line lately.

He's being written as a fairly straight up hero, far less dark than in the series. After the Fall was probably the darkest of the IDW comics - where he more or less saved LA after causing it to fall into hell - resulting in a world where WRH had disappeared, and he and Spike were celebrated at heroes by the populace, which now believed vampires and demons were real.
In comics after the After the Fall (didn't read Aftermath, because I can't stomach Kelly Armstrong's writing), he was more or less portrayed as a sort of guy who saves people a la Angel season 1 and season 2, with the Hyperion as his headquarters.
Connor just took over his operation, while Angel himself is being held prisoner by an evil corporation that is using his blood to sire vampires. One tube feeds him, one drains him - and he's wrapped up and unable to move.

I'm guessing IDW flipped out when the Angel reveal was made. Ryall's comment on his blog was notably sardonic, but diplomatic. (Ryall is more diplomatic than Allie.)
And Allie realizing they would - rushed to appease them, allegedly calling Ryall (editor of the Angel series on IDW) and telling him not to worry they got a plan in place that will allow both series to make sense and not disrupt what IDW has been doing. (He had to have forseen that as being a huge problem - which may explain the leaked spoiler - they leaked it early, in order to do damage control with IDW...or it got accidentally leaked, and they used it as an opportunity to do damage control?)

At any rate...that comment bothers me, for a lot of reasons, many of which you've articulated above.

How do you resolve that?

1. A reboot?
2. Alternate time line?
3. A reset button a la Angel After the Fall?

All three make me uneasy.

Not sure there is a way without using some sort of lame gimmick or ex deus machina, not that Whedon is beyond doing that.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

And Allie realizing they would - rushed to appease them, allegedly calling Ryall (editor of the Angel series on IDW) and telling him not to worry they got a plan in place that will allow both series to make sense and not disrupt what IDW has been doing.

I assume that IDW already had a plan in place on how to deal with the Angel=Twilight reveal. I certainly know that Brian Lynch was very laid back on his own blog, basically saying "Don't worry, Joss is very clever, everything will work out."

The thing is, IDW's plan was based on the reveal happening in April. Because it came in January, their timetable got totally messed up and they had to scramble around working out what to do - rushing out the Urru 'Spike isn't Twilight' cover overnight as an example. So it wouldn't be surprising Chris Ryall was annoyed.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

He's being written as a fairly straight up hero, far less dark than in the series.

That's the impression I got too, which makes it even more difficult to understand how they think they're going to bring that Angel into continuity with the mass-murderer one.

Then again, the Scoobies look awfully chipper in the #32 preview, so I guess we're really not supposed to care about everyone that Angel's killed. Oh well.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah the previews of #32 and #34 make me uneasy. All these people have died...and oh, we're young and happy and in love, who cares??? Shudders.

It's possible that whatever they are doing to Angel in the Bill Willingham arc - in which he's been kidnapped by an evil corporation to sire vampires...leads to him becoming Twilight.
But I'm not sure. And if that is the case - that means everything happening in IDW happens long before Buffy S8, as in two years ago. I thought Buffy S8 was just one year after Chosen? Do we know when this is taking place?? I hate comic book time...it makes it too easy for writers to do whatever they please.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

It's possible that whatever they are doing to Angel in the Bill Willingham arc - in which he's been kidnapped by an evil corporation to sire vampires...leads to him becoming Twilight.

I wondered that too. Then Bill Willingham said exactly what he thought about the Twilight reveal... (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=24374) now I'm pretty sure that's no part of it. o_O