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[personal profile] shadowkat
The biggest problem about writing critiques, metas, reviews, or posts about anything other than the daily routine of my personal life (which ironically is the one thing I don't feel the need to write about, because, ahem, boring), is that I am bound to piss someone off. Someone will see my post, something will push their collective buttons, and they'll either tell me it did or rant about it in their lj, on whedonesque, on a fanboard, forum, or chat room. As long as I don't know about it - ie, blissfully unaware, I really don't care. Actually I prefer not to know about it. The times I've found out about it - result in horrible writer's block, increased self-consciousness, and frequent post deletions. I become careful and cautious about what I am writing and I start worrying about offending my reader's delicate sensibilities - and as any good fiction writer, critic, or internet blogger knows by now? That's the kiss of death. We become boring when we worry to much about who we might offend. I should know that's how I write at work, clean, crisp, polite prose guaranteed not to offend a soul. Just the facts, hon, nothing but the facts.

But *creative* writing as any good writer knows is about taking risks. The leap of faith. You know the moment you write that first paragraph or sentence that if it is any good - it will probably be torn asunder by someone. Criticism is part of the process. I remember getting a lj post linked on Whedonesque, then being invaded as well as seeing my post ripped to shreds. People did come to my defense. But the old ego was burned. And I found myself being uber-careful with posts after that. At least until I got back to my comfort zone.

Anyhow, this is a rather long prelude to what amounts to just another review/critique/meta what have you on a comic book. And it is just that - a comic book. Based on a tv series that was created for teen girls back in the 1990s. Which has spawned a fandom and numerous and rather fascinating fanfiction, some of which I like far better than the published novels I've attempted to read this year. It's odd, in a way, I'd rather write a meta on the fanfic I am re-reading, but I'm still not sure how to write it. Plus writing reviews on fanfic seems to be ...well, weird somehow. Recs are fine. But critical reviews and metas...much like what I've done on Whedon's works...on fanfic, get odd responses. So...I'm thinking keeping my opinions to my self on the latter may be the better approach? Or perhaps safer one?

A bit on comic books in general before I start. Comic books get a bad rap. I don't know why. I've never understood why. But I don't know why soap operas or for that matter pulp detective novels and romance novels get bad raps. Sure there are horridly written versions - but that is true in all the genres. I've read some literary novels that I have no idea how they got published, let alone made it into the literary canon. They all have their moments of brilliance. You just have to slog through a lot of crap to get there is all. Nature of the beast. Hmmm, maybe that's why? Human beings, love them, but not noted for their patience.

Anyhow...this issue much like the last one, has a classic comics cover, and kudos to the excellent [livejournal.com profile] embers_log for figuring out that I'd much rather have Jeanty's jaunty take on a classic comics cover than Joan Chen's romantic painting. Starting to realize that I'd undervalued Jeanty's style - he is deliberately coping a specific type of comic art. It may not be my favorite style - too Jack Kirby and Bubble-gum for my taste, but it is definitely deliberate. I'm more of a hyper-realism girl.

This cover is satirical homage to the classic Hoboglobin or Return of the Green Goblin reveal in Spiderman, which has also been done in X-men, with the reveal of who Death was - the villian's main henchman who was systematically attacking, isolating, and killing the X-men. In both cases - the reveal was a friend or close lover of the hero. In Spiderman, the Hobgloblin/Green Goblin Take #2 (Take # 1 was Norman Osborn) - it was Peter's best bud Harry Osborn. In X-men, it was Wolverine. This reveal got all sorts of ooohss and awwwws. And drove up comic sales. Comics like most serials - like to do big plot-twists to garner sales or ratings. They don't always have to make sense. As one pal/critic stated regarding soap operas - they are emotionally driven, not plot driven, half the time the characters are just being thrown into situations for the emotional angst, even if it makes no sense whatsoever logically. Comics, I pointed out to him, are the same way. I don't think he appreciated that. So for that matter, I said, is Buffy - which, hate to break it to you, is written by a comic book/soap opera fan. He didn't appreciate that comment either. We used to have five hour long battles while eating sushi over this very topic. It was fun.

So what to say about this comic? Do you want the snarky review or the meta review? Actually not really giving you a choice. My birthday. And I will snark and make fun of the comic if I want to. Seriousness is on hold until tomorrow, at the very least. Read or not, that's your choice.;-)

I already knew about the big reveal before I read the comic - I also knew how Buffy reacted to the reveal. People have been commenting on it for months. Been rather amusing. Much enjoyment had by all. (I'm serious, there was much enjoyment, that's not snark). So there were no surprises. All of that had been leaked ahead of time. Thank you, Dark Horse. Not that I'm complaining. Made it easier in a way to enjoy the comic.


Initial thoughts, warning much snark below...:

My first thought before going into this in great detail - is that...from a purely moralistic, objective, means justify the ends, perspective - Buffy should have staked Angel in Season One. Now don't get me wrong - I'm rather glad she didn't. I like Angel as a character. Besides, hello, Spike. But, if she had staked Angel in S1, look how many lives she'd have saved. Probably over a thousand. Sure he saved a few people here and there. But not much more than a hundred, give or take. But he cost the lives over a thousand people...including S8. Look how many people died because Buffy wanted some nookie? See ladies this what happens when you think with your crotch. Course if she had killed him, which by the way was Whedon's original plan, the series would have only lasted one season, there'd be no Spike, no Angel the Series, and where would we be? So very glad David Greenwalt and the network brass talked him out of it.

1. The argument that Xander and Buffy are having regarding how she got her powers? This is oddly reminiscent of the argument I had with people on lj last month regarding the same thing. I apparently have been channeling Xander lately. Except I think I liked Xander's explanation better - which of course he stole from a classic Superman comic.(ETA: apparently not a comic, but the movie, although I'd swear I saw it in the comics as well...but what do I know.) Here's the by play:

Xander: No,no, no. You're not taking their powers -- you're getting their power when they die. Like Highlander or Rising Stars.

I take it back my explanation was better.

Buffy (who is clearly channeling certain posters on my flist who shall remain nameless): You're not listening. Since we started, we've lost two hundred and six girls. That's over two hundred girls dead. And now their power--it's in --it's in me.

Xander (or rather me): But it doesn't make you a bad person.

Buffy (or rather other posters, not me): But don't you see what it does make me? If I'm sucking their power it makes me a vampire. (actually the other posters were comparing you to a zombie or a female possum when it eats its young. Vampire? not so much. I'd have been willing to go with the vampire metaphor. Except I still fail to see where the sucking is happening - bit hard to suck people - when you are over a thousand miles away from them. The Highlander motif makes a heck of a lot more sense.)

2. Why are skinless Warren, Amy and the General free to wander? I agree with Dawn on this one. Hello, they've all tried to kill us. Granted, the Scooby Gang has the oddest tendency to take in and accept people who tried to kill them. But this is getting ridiculous. That said, they do provide a handy solution for finding Twilight's secret headquarters - which apparently is three seconds in the future. (yet another reference to time travel - making me wonder if Twilight or Twangel is really from the future after all. Sort of lame, but I can see them doing it.)

3. Apparently Twilight has exactly the same powers as Buffy suddenly got. (Did Twilight go to Tibet first? Let all his powers go? Then do a spell to resurrect a bunch of wrathful Goddesses? Then lose a bunch of colleagues, suck all their powers from them, and whammo, super-strength? So all he had to do to get Buffy super-powered was to make her do the same thing? Nah...can't be that.)

4. Now Twilight gives Giles a speech that sounds a lot like the same speech that the head of the Rossum Corporation gives to Caroline/Echo in the penultimate reveal episode of Dollhouse. It also reminds me of a plot point in rarihah's story Necessary Evils - where it is revealed that slayer's have mysterious dark roots...actually I thought rarihah's fanfic made more sense. In other Words, Twilight is channeling the villian in Dollhouse or rarihah, can't quite decide which - I'm guessing Dollhouse. But at the moment it is a toss-up. Although will state, quite in character - Twangel or rather Angel has always been into the prophecies and the cryptic.

5.Andrew interrupts as Captain America. Sigh - yes, this is a funny sight gag - particularly Twilight's remark - "Andrew - did you just hit me with a frisbee"? and Andrew's rejoinder right out of... (sorry Andrew wrong superhero, Captain America would never say: It's Clobbering Time. That's The Thing....get your heroes right! ETA: Andrew fans have come to his defense and stated correctly that Andrew and Meltzer by proxy basically combined five to six different Marvel heroes. So he's a composite. For the list see the comments below.). Maybe it is just me but what this comic is really needs is a good snarky character who makes fun of everyone and everything. IDW's Angel comics actually still have this in well, Spike. Buffy desperately needs a Spike, Cordy or Anya. Xander and Andrew just aren't cutting it. And Faith, well, Faith has lost her bite.

7. Buffy finally flies, literally, to the rescue. Okay not so much rescue as knocking Twilight into the stratosphere. Which ends with the big reveal. Twilight is Angel or hereinafter known as Twangel! And apparently he hasn't changed a bit, still thinks a bit too highly of himself for his own good. Pride/Ego/Vanity were always Angel's biggest flaws. And Giles, per usual, is all doom and gloom. Seriously, how many times can the world be doomed, Giles? You'd think after learning the plural of apocalypse, you'd get a brighter outlook, be a bit more optimistic? But no, it's all doom and gloom, Buffy can't beat him. We're dead. This tune is getting old, mate.

8. Although to be honest, Giles may have a point...there may be no winning this fight. She's off in the woods trying to fight Twangel. Angel's comments do remind one a bit of Angelus, so I can see why she decides that must be who it is. Not. However, her comment that he should stop talking because his best asset was that he wasn't a talker - is a very good point. Whenever Angel talks he has a tendency to sound well a bit like the head of the Rossum Corporation.

9. Okay here comes the rationalization and long-awaited retcon that the folks at IDW have been waiting for with baited breath..."I didn't kill anyone. This was happening." To which Buffy replies:"Stop saying cryptic crap like that." (Hon, as long as you've known Angel when hasn't he said cryptic crap like that? ) "It happened because you made it happen, you made them hate us."(That and the fact that he kept attacking them wherever they happened to be hiding at the time.) "You really don't know how much worse it could've been? Powerful people, governments lining up to wipe out the terrorists you created. Demons weren't thrilled either." (Okay is he talking about Simone's gang? What terrorists? Also, didn't he line up the governments? Wasn't he in charge of it? How could it have been worse? Course Angel was always rather good at rationalizing things...and it is right here that I thought, Buff, hon, you really should have staked this guy in S3 when he came back the first round...he got his chance, blew it. Let the bloke die.)"I put on a mask, talk about master plans, distract them, keep the body count as low as I can while I push..."

Okay this is where Angel starts to sound exactly like the head of the Rossum Corporation in the penultimate episodes of S2 Dollhouse. OR Skip in Angel S3 to Cordy or Jasmine in Angel S4 or Cordelia in Angel S4, frankly it's a toss-up.

Apparently he's pushed her to become who she is. He and she, the chosen one's have earned this, their power. This is the almighty shanshu. What he tells her is:

You fundamentally shifted the balance of power in this world Buffy. People die when that happens. Every time. It could never be as simple as you hoped. Not on this plane. But it was a pure act. And it meant you were ready.

Skip says to Cordy in S3 that her acceptance of the visions, her pain and suffering are pure acts and it means she is ready to go and become a higher being. Which happens and then Jasmine possesses her and gives birth to itself...and we get shiny happy people.

In Dollhouse, the head of Rossume (who turns out to be someone very Angel like in Caroline/Echo's life - ie. a well trusted and loved associate that everyone loves and trusts) tells Echo that he had to push her to become what she is. Yes, people will die. But it is for the greater good. It is never simple. She is pure and will promote a new tomorrow. Or something along those lines.

Joss Whedon when asked about villians, stated the worste villians, the most evil people he'd met were people who thought they were right, just, and pure. That their cause the best one for all involved. Who believed with absolute certainity they were a hero.

In other words, if this were a superhero comic by any other writer - such as say, Stephanie Meyer or Kelly Armstrong or Bill Willingham? [ETA: According to the comments -apparently not so much Willingham, which may explain why he blew a gasket over this storyline, he already did a similar one in Fables, except he didn't use his competitor's hero.] I'd say, yes, if you are a Bangel or an Angel fan - celebrate and be merry. BUT. It is not. Shipping characters in Joss Whedon stories is disasterous to one's health. Whedon is not that type of writer. If I were an Angel shipper or a Bangel shipper? I'd stop reading now. This is not looking good.

Personally, I'm beginning to miss Buffy/Satsu and have come to the conclusion that I preferred that ship to her other ones in the comics. At least Satsu loved her and treated her with respect. Everyone else...not so much.

10. Does it work? Yes, and no. Plot wise? Angel's plan makes no sense. And the fact that now, all of a sudden, Buffy is getting power? Less sense. Also, it is really hard to buy Angel's retcon, assuming we are supposed to.

But, Buffy's response to Angel makes perfect sense. As does Angel's speech. Both are completely in character. Angel's achillees heel has always been his own vanity and pride. He has to be the champion, he has to be special, to earn god's love. From his perspective, he has shanshued, he can have the girl, the super-powers, the glory. Together they are superman and wonderwoman. This is Angel's wet dream. No more fears of Angelus. Perfect bliss. He can fuck Buffy in the air.

And Buffy's reaction is understandable. She is desperately lonely. That was established from day one. She feels disconnected from everyone. She misses the sex she once had and fantasizes about Angel and Spike. Fantasizes a lot about Angel, the good old days with Angel, when she had someone who adored her. In her head she has romanticized him a bit - but that too makes sense, we romanticize our first love and the might have been. They stay pristine in our heads. Add to this, she was recently reunited with Riley, and rejected by Xander. Xander who fell in love with her sister instead. Who she saw kissing her sister..and who she tried to make a play for, but too late. At the point that she finally fights Twilight - Buffy has suffered quite a few blows:

1. Spike burned to a crisp after she told him she loved him in Chosen
2. Long time between lovers and connections
3. Distance between herself and Giles, which she's struggled with.
4. Struggling with her new role as slayer boss to hundreds of girls
5. Falling for Xander only to see him go for her sister
6. Having part of her team go rogue.
7. Fighting a mysterious nemesis who keeps winning
8. Having to go underground when Vampires become hot items and slayers monsters in the public eye
9. Killing her best friend in the future
10. Giving up her powers and everyone else's only to have half the team killed by Twilight's army. And OZ's wife wounded.
11. Getting super-powers = only to be told that she sucked them from dead slayers like a vampire.

Suddenly Angel appears, tells her no she's not sucking those powers from dead slayers, he has stopped the death toll from being worse, that her motives were pure, that if she joins him, is with him - she'll be happy. They can be together. All is roses and lollipops.

Personally, if I were the Buffster, I'd kiss Angel too and go for it. Twuffy sex commences.

But, remember the last two times this happened...Surprise and well I Will Always Remember You - neither ended well for the Buffster. So again, she'd have been better off if she staked Angel in S1. Much less pain that way.

As for the greater theme? Reminds me a lot of Dollhouse and Angel S4. The celebrity. Worshipping the person who makes us think all our problems will go away. They won't.
The bright glittery glow.

Whedon or rather Brad Meltzer is apparently doing some snarking of his own. They are clearly making fun of the Twilight books. There's even a direct reference to the books. And the last bit about glowing and sparkling in the sun, becoming like me, with me - we were meant together - is right out of Twilight. Which is amusing, since I'm willing to bet the Bella/Edward romance is basically Angel and Buffy without the depth and layers and bite.

It is also to a degree a fairly subversive take on the hero complex or what a hero is. Angel has always wanted to be a hero, to be important. Much like Cordelia, he envies Buffy. As does Willow. But Buffy doesn't want to be a hero, she is the reluctant hero. It is not something she asked for. And the power, rather than filling her with glee, fills her with guilt and shame. She would never understand why Angel gave up the chance to be human, normal and with her. Why he held out for this. It is why they can't work. At the end of the day, she will most likely have to kill him again, like she always does. Over and over and over again.

As for Spike's role in all this, assuming he has one, and yes, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that he does for a whole host of reasons, none of which have anything to do with romance or shipping...I have no clear idea. Speculation, yes. But nothing definite. I don't believe Spike will die - at least not by Twangel or off screen - there's no point and it doesn't move the story forward. Who would care, besides us, and I'm sorry, we don't count. And well Andrew, but also doesn't count. There's been no set-up emotionally speaking for Buffy to lose Spike in this matter, plus, been there done that. No - it would be more emotionally taxing for her if she has to be the one to send both Angel and Spike as well as herself to hell. Look for the worst possible thing the writer can do to the character and that's what he will do. I know he has to show up, because the pattern demands it. I do not believe and I repeat I do NOT believe, in case there is any confusion, that Spike and Buffy will be romantically reunited and ride off into the sunset together...well they might ride off into hell fighting...but one never knows with Whedon. Any more than I think Buffy and Angel are going to ride off into the sunset together or twilight as it were.

I do know, however, where this is headed. And why Spike and Angel have to come into play here. Whedon is preparing for the end game. The act that takes us into the Frayverse. He's been trying to link the two verses since S7. Personally, I think this is mistake because the problems I had with S7 and the problems I have with S8 plotwise are directly connected to that attempt. OTOH - I freely admit, one of the major reasons that I'm reading this thing still is to see how he links them, how Buffy seals herself and the demons into that alternate dimension, leaving poor Willow behind to keep the door shut, and deal with the cleanup. I think what will happen is Buffy will sacrifice herself and take the demons into the other dimension and Willow will seal the hole - with the backlash washing over her and filling her with power that she can't get rid of or use. Making her immortal, cursed. Willow - who tore Buffy from heaven thinking she was in hell, will be the one ultimately responsible for sealing her best friend in hell - unable to get back to this world, stuck forever elsewhere. And this will eat Willow up alive. And it is the reason DarkWillow brings Buffy to the future, before all of this occurs to kill her. As DarkWillow states - it is not that you are murdered that matters, it is who murders you. And I think that is the key.

Final bits...that bear consideration...much of this was foreshadowed by a Long Way Home and I am willing to bet that the final five issues will echo a Long Way Home in a different way.
What happened with Buffy in a Long Way Home? She fell asleep. In her dream she tries to kiss Xander, tries to be a couple with him after discussing Dawn, but he loses his head and backs away. (in reality he loses his head over her sister and backs away) A man entered her dream who looked like Angel and was floating in air, dressed in similar colors to Twilight, he said my love...then she saw it was Ethan and threw up in her mouth a little. (In reality, she thinks he's someone else, then realizes it is Angel, fights him and then kisses him) He kept making illusions to love. The first dream he breaks into is her sex fantasy with Spike and Angel, where she and Angel are leaning towards each other, and Spike is behind. Then she fights demons,
and Ethan takes her to the Sunnydale crater to Amy's rat cage, to a crucifix, and a number. While in the non-dream world - they are fighting off zombies, and Willow comes up with a way to break the spell. Satsu should kiss Buffy - someone who truly loves her, true loves kiss, will break the spell. And it does.

I think the last several issues are following that dream. So far, in Turbulence we had Xander losing his head over Dawn and backing away from Buffy's declarations of Love. In this issue, we have the Ethan/Buffy floating scene and the kissage. So...what is next, has a lot to do with the dream.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. One never knows with comic books.

Overall a fun read.



ETA: The comments have massive spoilers on Dollhouse. Sorry I didn't catch that sooner folks. I tried to avoid spoiling above, but failed miserably. Mucho apologies to anyone who got accidentally spoiled for Dollhouse.

Date: 2010-03-09 11:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shipperx.livejournal.com
Joss Whedon when asked about villians, stated the worste villians, the most evil people he'd met were people who thought they were right, just, and pure. That their cause the best one for all involved. Who believed with absolute certainity they were a hero.


So Angel is Farscape's Scorpius... only with slightly less self-awareness?

Date: 2010-03-10 02:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
And slightly more attractive...sex appeal often helps.;-)

Scorpius was a great character.

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Date: 2010-03-09 11:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coalitiongirl.livejournal.com
Thank you for this take on the comics- it's remarkably level-headed and you bring up some interesting points, particularly in the Twuffy- Buffy's actions, though inexcusable in my opinion (you don't F*** the killer of your kind, no matter what excuses he might have), are far more understandable now.

And the dreamscape/foreshadowing fits nicely- I've seen this done by [livejournal.com profile] stormwreathfor Always Darkest (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/100710.html#cutid1), but not for The Long Way Home. (Although I do wonder if Joss really has that much foresight...)

Date: 2010-03-11 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Okay, must find the time to go read stormwreath's analysis. I can see clear parallels to Always Darkest.

As for Buffy? Well, Angel talks a good game. He tells her he didn't kill them, that he was conning them. (Note we've already had this happen with Riley - where we were lead to believe Riley was siding with the evil Org.
But in reality he was a double agent, and helping Buffy. How? I still have no idea...the only intell he gave, Buffy already knew. But whatever.) At any rate - put yourself in her place or her pov. Your first love, Angel, pops up as Twilight, after you've had a hellish year, he tells you that you've earned a chance at happiness, that none of this is your fault, and it could have been much much worse - but if you fall into his arms and accept your destiney, everything will be hunky dory. Plus he denies that he killed any of these slayers - that was the other guys (and Buffy didn't actually see him personally kill the slayers, just the organization he's the figurehead of). Granted sounds a bit too good to be true to an outside observer, but in the thick of it, I can see why she might buy it hook line and sinker. Plus Buffy has a tendency to be a bit impulsive. (We know more than Buffy does.)

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Date: 2010-03-10 12:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] parcae-lj.livejournal.com
Wow, that would certainly be a grim ending. But I don't really see it happening. Remember that Whedon's planned ending for Buffy was The Gift, in which Buffy dies but everyone (including Buffy) pretty much gets what they wanted. Willow gets power and sexual maturity, Xander gets social stability and a girlfriend, and Buffy gets to turf her responsibilities onto the next girl. Those were all things they'd wanted since the start of the series. Chosen did the same thing - it was supposed to be sad that Anya and Spike died, but Willow conquered her self-doubt, Xander accepted his role as the one without powers and Buffy finally got the possibility of living a normal life - again, all longstanding desires. I don't think Whedon wants a sad ending for the series. I think he wants a bittersweet ending in which the characters get some of what they want, but not necessarily the way they want it.

So someone will die, but I don't see it being one of the two leads. Buffy has had the same core group since the first episode and I don't see that changing. It's going to be somebody (or somebodies) important and beloved enough for the audience to care, but not somebody important enough to make the ending a complete tragedy.

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Date: 2010-03-10 02:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Ah, you don't know what Whedon really planned with The Gift. The initial plan was that Xander play the Ben role, and house Glory. Willow go all DarkPhoenix and become the big bad. So...Buffy would have to kill Willow, then herself to save Dawn. Giles would have to kill Xander to prevent Glory from returning. He also originally intended to kill Xander in S7, but his writing team talked him out of it.

Whedon is bloodthirsty writer. ;-)

But I hope you're right. I'm not particularly looking forward to the bleak ending that apparently started the Frayverse. Plus we are supposed to be having a S9.

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Date: 2010-03-10 12:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] embers-log.livejournal.com
I have to confess that I didn't 'choose' to send you the Jeanty cover: when I got to the local comic book store they only had two copies of BtVS issue 33, and both had Jeanty covers....
so I had no Jo Chen option (I'm really glad you enjoy the Jeanty cover however!).

I'm looking forward to the next 7 issues, and finding out how this thing really ends.

Date: 2010-03-12 02:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
From what I understand from my flist - the Joan Chen cover wasn't that good this round. A bit too romantic and serious for the topic. The Jeanty covers work better for this arc - because they are referring to classic comic covers, which are in turn a commentary on the arc itself. The other Jeanty cover I preferred to Chen's was the one for Harmonic Divergence - with a sort of psuedo Magazine cover.

See? I appreciate Jeanty's art for what it is. I just prefer a more realistic style in some instances.

Date: 2010-03-10 01:24 am (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)
From: [identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com
I didn't think that was overly snarky. It seemed pretty well balanced to me. ;-)

"Powerful people, governments lining up to wipe out the terrorists you created. Demons weren't thrilled either." (Okay is he talking about Simone's gang? What terrorists?)

These terrorists:

"'Squads'. Right. Terrorists call 'em 'cells'. We go ahead with this, we gotta be together on exactly what we're facing, and that's an army. They got power, they got resources and they got a hard-line ideology that does not jibe with American interests. Worst of all, they got a leader. Charismatic, uncompromising and completely destructive. I mean, for the love of God... look what she did to her hometown."

That was in 8.01, before Simone had even finished her training.

Date: 2010-03-10 02:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Yet they chose Angel as Twilight. Go figure.

Date: 2010-03-10 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Seriously though...I guess from their pov Buffy is a terrorist. Seems odd, though considering it was Angel's amulet that took out the crater not Buffy. And Angel that turned LA into a hell dimension. Although the authority figures in the Buffyverse were never the brightest cogs in the universe.

Principle Snyder to Buffy:"In case you haven't figured out by now, the cops in Sunnydale are deeply stupid."

Apparently this goes for the US Military as well. Oh, let's hire the worst mass murdering terrorist out there to take out a girl with a bunch of slayers. Hey, he was so helpful during WWII, took out our submarine, let a bunch of dangerous vampires go....let's try it again. LOL! Hilarious.

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Date: 2010-03-10 02:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
What frustrates me to no end is that Joss planned all this out for the Buffyverse then decided to do Dollhouse and took his ideas from the Buffyverse and pumped them into Dollhouse. You're absolutely right that he's told this story before. Problem being he wrote this story for Buffy, then let his brain leak it all into Dollhouse. I understand the compulsion as a writer, you write what's on your mind and what philosophies interest you etc. But dangit, Joss, you just spoiled this Season 8!

Your final rundown of the comparisons from Buffy's dream remind me of the True Love trope and how Buffy is awakened from her zombie!dream state by a kiss. Back then it was Satsu. I'm honestly kinda wondering if Spike's kiss is supposed to counter Angel's. I know, I know, too Spuffy-happy shipper. But I could see Joss doing that only to stab Spuffy fans in the heart with something painful. He's gotta give us the romance before he can hurt us again. He's gotta make us think "what if? maybe this time" and tease us with the barest smidgeon of hope before he can take away all hope.

Date: 2010-03-10 04:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com
Problem being he wrote this story for Buffy, then let his brain leak it all into Dollhouse. I understand the compulsion as a writer, you write what's on your mind and what philosophies interest you etc. But dangit, Joss, you just spoiled this Season 8!

For some reason I think (and hope) it will work better with BtVS than it did with Dollhouse. The Boyd thing was a deal breaker for me. I'd decided to watch S2 after it was done, so I had all 13 episodes, and after the one with Boyd going OOCily evil, I stopped watching for days before curiosity won.

Hopefully, Angel's insaneness/evilness will be explained more believably.

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From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-11 02:46 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-03-11 01:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
I'm not sure if he wrote it for Buffy or Dollhouse at this point. I do know the moment I saw that episode where Boyd was revealed to be the head of the Rossum Corp - I knew what Whedon was doing in the Buffy Comics.
I guessed Giles - because honestly? Giles fits the Boyd role better than Angel does, and there's been more of a set-up. Plus, IDW. (Which we've already discussed to death.) BUT, I admittedly wondered how they'd get around the fact that Giles had an iron-clad albi. Time-travel? Lame.
So, when it was revealed that Angel was Twilight - my initial reaction was: oh, that'll work, actually in some respects better...because no time-travel excuse. Also, interesting commentary on the same trust/Daddy issues thematic going on in Dollhouse.

Boyd and Angel if you think about it - have a lot in common. Both are likable characters - well to most people, not everyone obviously.
Both have mysterious pasts. Both clearly have killed people or were mercernaries. Both have power and control issues. Both are protective and fatherly towards the Echo/Buffy character. The Echo/Buffy character saves them both repeatedly. Trusts both with her/their lives repeatedly.
Very similar characters. Plus we got a Ballard/Riley character and an Alpha/Spike character in the mix. (Sorry Ballard reminds me more of Riley, predictable and somewhat dull, yet the stand-up military bloke. While Alpha was a wild-card, who changed...when he fell in love and got a soul - Ballard's soul.) Whedon treads over the same ground.

That said? I'm willing to bet S8 plays out a bit differently. It won't be the same set-up. Buffy isn't in love with Riley after all, not like Echo was with Ballard. Also, we've got Willow in the mix. And Andrew is no Topher.

But as far as Twilight himself is concerned - yep, Boyd. Saw it immediately.

On the Spuffy front? I have low expectations. All I want is a resolution and the answers to three or four questions, to wit: 1) Does Buffy know Spike is alive, yes or no? If no, how will she react when she finds out?
And how will she deal with those who knew? 2) Does Spike know about Twangel? 3)Where in the heck is Spike? 4) What is the status of Spike/Buffy at this juncture? 5) What is the resolution of this relationship?

That's all. Simple things. Personally I think the answers will be: 1)No she doesn't know. She's thrilled, but that doesn't change anything. 2) Yes, he thinks it is hilarious and bizarre and Angel has gone insane again. 3) Pretty much over. But they'll always care for and love one another, and if she ever needs him - he's there. No matter what. OR something to that effect. A la Riley take 2. 4)See #3.

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Date: 2010-03-10 04:56 am (UTC)
ext_15439: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com
After all this obvious S8/Dollhouse parallel, I hope that Whedon will not change his original plan for S8 (especially for denying the Dollhouse similarity).

I've read some reviews on Meltzer's books and it seems the guy likes to play with ancient stories and prophecies, maybe he'll bring in some interesting things. But I'm still bothered that he watched only BtVS.

And I hate the glowing! I think is radioactive.

Date: 2010-03-10 05:00 am (UTC)
ext_15439: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com
I hope that Buffy's dreaming in the snow after she was touched by the Goddess, could be a good way to get rid of the superpowers and Twu Wuv sonic glowing.

Sorry for double posting.

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Date: 2010-03-10 10:18 am (UTC)
elisi: Edwin and Charles (Xacula by beer_good_foamy)
From: [personal profile] elisi
Twuffy!!!!! That is my new favourite word! I love it! *claps*

Don't have much to say other, except that I love your speculation, and sincerely hope you're right in your 'Willow seals them all off etc' theory. That *would* make sense! :)

Date: 2010-03-11 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Hee. Yes, Willow to Xander and Dawn in the next issue: it's not a bird, it's not a plane, it's Twuffy!!!

I think the final end-game - with Willow sealing them off won't happen until S9.

Date: 2010-03-10 10:53 am (UTC)
ext_15392: (Default)
From: [identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com
Your review was a great read!

Some points where I'd like to add bits though:

In other words, if this were a superhero comic by any other writer - such as say, Stephanie Meyer or Kelly Armstrong or Bill Willingham?

Bill Willingham actually did exactly such a villain on Fables though. Gepetto gives a completely similar speech about how his reighn would have brought love and peace for all and is far better than all the good and evil quarreling murdering Fables, so I don't think Willingham fits the list.

I disagree a bit about your point 10. I'm not sure if it really is in character for Buffy. From the show I'd say no, but comic Buffy has always seemed so alien to me that maybe for her it is?
I'm still leaning more towards magical influence on that one, something that accillarates the depression she was slipping into all season.

A man entered her dream who looked like Angel and was floating in air, dressed in similar colors to Twilight, he said my love...then she saw it was Ethan and threw up in her mouth a little.

That was one of the very few scenes in the comic that I actually read as a clear reference to Spike, not to Angel. Because he's wearing a coat that goes all the way down and a red shirt, which is a lot more trademark to Spike than to Angel, as is calling her "love", so I'm not quite sure I'd interpret the dream the same way.

And I'll henceforth forever refer to Twangel/Buffy as Twuffy, it's perfect.

Also I really think you're on to Something with your FDW theory, that would bring things together very nicely.
Edited Date: 2010-03-10 10:55 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-03-11 02:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Bill Willingham actually did exactly such a villain on Fables though. Gepetto gives a completely similar speech about how his reighn would have brought love and peace for all and is far better than all the good and evil quarreling murdering Fables, so I don't think Willingham fits the list.

Did not know this. So Willingham had a Jasmine arc, too? Explains why he busted a gasket over the Twilight reveal. Probably isn't happy with the explanation either. Assuming he's even paying any attention at this point, which I doubt.

I disagree a bit about your point 10. I'm not sure if it really is in character for Buffy. From the show I'd say no, but comic Buffy has always seemed so alien to me that maybe for her it is?

I agree that she is under the influence, ie, drunk on power. The girl has just been given super-powers, and can glow. That would affect anyone. Heck look what it did to Willow. Add to that, the emotional trauma of having just discovered that you've sucked up the powers of people who depended on you, that you're desire to share your power with others lead to their deaths and you getting more power, and that your first love is this insane guy named Twilight whose been taunting you and fighting you for months...plus, all the shit that has happened. Buffy's been sucker-punched. And she's only human. I can see why she buys Angel's line or at least wants to... remember what she says in Retreat, to OZ, when he says the desire to just give in to the wolf overtook him?
Buffy would like to just give in to it. Let go. And that's exactly what she does in that scene - she let's go, she gives in. It's a moment of weakness...hard to judge her too harshly for that.

That was one of the very few scenes in the comic that I actually read as a clear reference to Spike, not to Angel. Because he's wearing a coat that goes all the way down and a red shirt, which is a lot more trademark to Spike than to Angel, as is calling her "love", so I'm not quite sure I'd interpret the dream the same way.

I'd initially read it the same way, but other posters online - I think stormwreath and aycheb - managed to convince me that it can equally be interpreted to fit Angel and actually does fit Angel just as well.

My guess, is it fits both. I think...how to put this, Buffy consciously sees Angel, but Spike is beneath the surface. I see it throughout. It's no accident that Satsu wakes her up and how closely Satsu's relationship with Buffy and her attitude towards Satsu parallels her relationship with Spike. Or for that matter Twangel's initial attitude towards Satsu - whom he throws something at and injures in Beautiful Sunset.

FDW theory? You mean the end-game or final chapter, with Willow sealing everyone in another dimension? Not sure what you mean here?

And thanks.




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Hi! (delurking)

Date: 2010-03-10 11:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alocalmaximum.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)
Hi, shadowkat. I've delurked in a few other journals over the past few weeks. I've long been impressed with your writing on the Buffyverse--I first heard of you back toward when Angel was ending, and I remember you making great posts on ATPOBTVS (comparing "Power Play" to The Wild Bunch, "The Girl in Question" to Rosencratz and Guildenstern are Dead). I think you have a lot of great insights and I like that you both are clear-eyed about the flaws in Whedon's shows and also like and appreciate the final seasons of Buffy which are too often underrated and/or rejected entirely.

As far as this post, I generally agree with what you say about the issue. I'm still hoping that we get more information about Angel's motivations; as is Angel's justifications, as you point out, don't really make any sense, and while Whedon plays fast and loose with the plot I hope he'll at least offer a little bit more. I think that there is a bit of a lantern being hung on how trustworthy a narrator Angel is in this very issue, with Angel's punching Faith and being completely surprised that she's bleeding--clearly he's in his own world and hasn't a clue what the consequences of his actions are.

And on the balance I agree that Buffy's actions are in character, though I think the glow might be affecting her judgment as well. But basically, she really wants to believe Angel and so does. If Angel really did what's best, then why not give in and kiss him? We in the audience have watched Twilight before--we've seen him threaten to kill Giles, Faith or Andrew, execute one of his own men for finding a "spike," stand unfazed as people die on the battlefield because they're mortal, and claim to have set Giles/Faith against Roden/Gigi. Buffy never saw any of this, so Angel has so much more plausible deniability with her than with us.

As an aside: Andrew isn't dressed as Captain America. He's dressed as SEVERAL superheroes. He has a Batman belt, a Spider-Man glove, a...Punisher chest (I think?), Captain America's shield, some other hero's helmet, etc. So saying "It's clobberin' time" is yet another superhero reference (to Thing), not a mistake.

Re: Hi! (delurking)

Date: 2010-03-10 03:57 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Andrew isn't dressed as Captain America. He's dressed as SEVERAL superheroes. He has a Batman belt, a Spider-Man glove, a...Punisher chest (I think?), Captain America's shield, some other hero's helmet, etc. So saying "It's clobberin' time" is yet another superhero reference (to Thing), not a mistake.

Andrew looks how Buffy feels. :)

Re: Hi! (delurking)

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Date: 2010-03-10 12:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lusciousxander.livejournal.com
I love your comment about the Scoobies taken in killers -I'm always baffled when I read about the Scoobies black/white personas, they're quite very grey and forgiving, always giving others second chances; Spike and Anya the biggest examples.

Buffy desperately needs a Spike, Cordy or Anya. Xander and Andrew just aren't cutting it.

Xander used to be that guy when the show first started, especially in the high school years. Then he matured. I'll say the same for Spike, he's not snarky at all in S7. Same with Cordelia. All of them have evolved and changed. Anya is the only one who died a sarcastic.

Date: 2010-03-10 04:16 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
At the end of the day, she will most likely have to kill him again, like she always does.

Or he will have to kill her (send to hell dimension) to mirror her actions in season 2.

Date: 2010-03-11 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Have you become a Twilight shipper now? Say it's not so. ;-)

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Date: 2010-03-10 04:18 pm (UTC)
next_to_normal: (S8 not kidding - Dawn)
From: [personal profile] next_to_normal
But critical reviews and metas...much like what I've done on Whedon's works...on fanfic, get odd responses. So...I'm thinking keeping my opinions to my self on the latter may be the better approach? Or perhaps safer one?

A group of us once tried to get a book club-esque discussion going about [livejournal.com profile] anaross's fic "My Life Closed Twice," but it never really got off the ground. It seems like there's just something awkward about subjecting your peers to the same scrutiny you'd subject the source material to - even though it's not necessarily negative criticism, and I think there are some fanfics out there that would certainly stand up to in-depth analysis.

Joss Whedon when asked about villians, stated the worste villians, the most evil people he'd met were people who thought they were right, just, and pure. That their cause the best one for all involved. Who believed with absolute certainity they were a hero.

Yeah... the problem Joss seems to have, though, is that when he tries to do that, the villain always comes across as ridiculous. Boyd's speech in Dollhouse seemed to come out of nowhere and was so bizarrely OOC. And the only way to make what's coming out of Angel's mouth sound reasonable is if we assume he's completely out of his mind on glow juice. Joss is dead on in thinking that the best villain believes he's the hero of the story. He just doesn't write them in a way that's at all convincing.

Whedon is preparing for the end game. The act that takes us into the Frayverse... I think what will happen is Buffy will sacrifice herself and take the demons into the other dimension and Willow will seal the hole - with the backlash washing over her and filling her with power that she can't get rid of or use.

I think that would be a really interesting - and dark! - ending, except I don't see how that leaves much room for a Season 9, which Joss and Scott Allie definitely seem to be planning on.

Date: 2010-03-11 02:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
It seems like there's just something awkward about subjecting your peers to the same scrutiny you'd subject the source material to - even though it's not necessarily negative criticism, and I think there are some fanfics out there that would certainly stand up to in-depth analysis.

I think you are right. The difference is that the original author or source author tends to be oblivious to our criticism of his/her work as do his friends, family, etc. (Although I have been ripped to shreds by fans regarding critiques of tv shows - Whedonesque board members really ripped me a new one for deigning to speak ill, even slightly so, of their precious Dollhouse during the first season. Poor Simon. It wasn't his fault.) Remember a professional actor telling me once that you should never read reviews of your work - the accolades will give you a big head and make you cocky, the criticism will kill your ego and make you self-conscious. Best to ignore both. Not bad advice. Except actors get applause, writers...we don't not unless we read our own reviews.
And professional writers are no different than fanfic writers, they can't take criticism either - you should have seen Anne Rice attack her critics on Amazon.com. It was embarrassing. With fanfic, I think..it has a lot to do with the fact that we know we are playing with the forbidden, so much of fanfic is sexual fantasy, something the outside world scoffs at and makes fun of. That we can't tell people outside of fandom about. So...because of that, people are itchier and more nervous.
It's almost more personal in a way, than ordinary fic is. Or at least that's been my impression.

Yeah... the problem Joss seems to have, though, is that when he tries to do that, the villain always comes across as ridiculous. Boyd's speech in Dollhouse seemed to come out of nowhere and was so bizarrely OOC. And the only way to make what's coming out of Angel's mouth sound reasonable is if we assume he's completely out of his mind on glow juice. Joss is dead on in thinking that the best villain believes he's the hero of the story. He just doesn't write them in a way that's at all convincing.

Agreed. I felt much the same way. Boyd as the head of Rossum did not work for me. It was set-up poorly. And felt very much out of nowhere.
Did not help that he was my favorite character. Also felt a bit preachy.

Angel - while I can see Angel doing that, at the same time, the speech doesn't quite play, due to the fact that Angel has lived this storyline.
Hello, Season 4 ATS. Cordelia gets all glowy in S3, goes to Heaven, comes back, gives birth to Jasmine - who pretty much gives exactly the same speech to Angel that Angel is giving to Buffy. Heck the same one that Skip gave to Cordelia. You'd think that Angel of all people would see through it? Granted it is ironic as all get-out, that Angel is pulling the Jasmine stick with Buffy. But...at the same time, it devolves the character a bit. Although I suppose you could argue that it doesn't really devolve him, that he's evolved into another sort of anti-hero? I don't know. I still think Hank Summers or Giles might have worked better. Granted there'd be no flying sex...

I think that would be a really interesting - and dark! - ending, except I don't see how that leaves much room for a Season 9, which Joss and Scott Allie definitely seem to be planning on.

Actually I don't think the whole sealing into another dimension thing will happen until S9. I think that may well be S9's arc. This is the set-up for that.

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Date: 2010-03-10 04:52 pm (UTC)
shapinglight: (season 8)
From: [personal profile] shapinglight
I've just been spoilered for Dollhouse, dammit!

Not blaming you, btw. My own fault. I didn't have to read this.

I miss Satsu too, and I agree there's plenty of potential for the very dark ending you cite, were it not for the fact that Joss is planning a season 9. Of course, that could all be set in whatever dark dimension he plans to send Buffy to (if he indeed plans to do that).

Scott Allie has denied that this story has anything to do with the other Twilight, but that's at the least disingenuous and at most an outright lie. Or perhaps I'm getting mixed up. Allie said that Joss isn't mocking Bangel, but it is of course possible that he's using Bangel to mock the other Twilight. Not the same thing.

Date: 2010-03-11 01:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
No, no, my fault. I should have realized that commenting on the link to Dollhouse would open the way to spoilers. Sorry about that. But you now know why I kept saying that after I saw Dollhouse, I knew exactly what Whedon was doing with Twilight.

Scott Allie has denied that this story has anything to do with the other Twilight, but that's at the least disingenuous and at most an outright lie. Or perhaps I'm getting mixed up. Allie said that Joss isn't mocking Bangel, but it is of course possible that he's using Bangel to mock the other Twilight. Not the same thing.

Does Scott Allie have a purpose besides tweaking fans? I can't see one.

At any rate - I think they are mocking both the Stephanie Meyer Twilight books and Bangel (the relationship that in part inspired the Bella/Edward) - although to be fair, it's hardly new. Dark Shadows had a Bangel relationship, as did Anne Rice's books (which Whedon also makes fun of), and countless others. Apparently a popular trope in paranormal romance. Not my favorite - got bored of it in 1999 or thereabouts, but it makes other people happy, obviously. Oh well, they'll get Twuffy for about two issues...then all hell will break loose. ;-)

I miss Satsu too, and I agree there's plenty of potential for the very dark ending you cite, were it not for the fact that Joss is planning a season 9. Of course, that could all be set in whatever dark dimension he plans to send Buffy to (if he indeed plans to do that).

Oh, I don't think they're going to do it until S9 or S10, assuming that they can draw this out that long. Something will happen at the end of this season which will set in motion the events that lead to Buffy and the gang getting rid of all the demons and magic in the world - a la Fray. That's at least one theory. It's not one I particularly want, because I prefer the Buffyverse to the Frayverse, and I think Whedon is making a mistake sacrificing his TV heroine to bring about the comic book one. But...at the same time, I'm really really curious to see if he does it, and if so, how. And if he doesn't do it, what he does instead.

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Date: 2010-11-10 09:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shipperx.livejournal.com
Many months later while looking for where you discussed Wonder Woman stuff...

You fundamentally shifted the balance of power in this world Buffy. People die when that happens. Every time. It could never be as simple as you hoped. Not on this plane. But it was a pure act. And it meant you were ready.

Skip says to Cordy in S3 that her acceptance of the visions, her pain and suffering are pure acts and it means she is ready to go and become a higher being. Which happens and then Jasmine possesses her and gives birth to itself...


Pretty prophetic, huh.
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