Buffy Comic - Issue #33...Haven't We Done This Dance Before??

[shadowkat]

The biggest problem about writing critiques, metas, reviews, or posts about anything other than the daily routine of my personal life (which ironically is the one thing I don't feel the need to write about, because, ahem, boring), is that I am bound to piss someone off. Someone will see my post, something will push their collective buttons, and they'll either tell me it did or rant about it in their lj, on whedonesque, on a fanboard, forum, or chat room. As long as I don't know about it - ie, blissfully unaware, I really don't care. Actually I prefer not to know about it. The times I've found out about it - result in horrible writer's block, increased self-consciousness, and frequent post deletions. I become careful and cautious about what I am writing and I start worrying about offending my reader's delicate sensibilities - and as any good fiction writer, critic, or internet blogger knows by now? That's the kiss of death. We become boring when we worry to much about who we might offend. I should know that's how I write at work, clean, crisp, polite prose guaranteed not to offend a soul. Just the facts, hon, nothing but the facts.

But *creative* writing as any good writer knows is about taking risks. The leap of faith. You know the moment you write that first paragraph or sentence that if it is any good - it will probably be torn asunder by someone. Criticism is part of the process. I remember getting a lj post linked on Whedonesque, then being invaded as well as seeing my post ripped to shreds. People did come to my defense. But the old ego was burned. And I found myself being uber-careful with posts after that. At least until I got back to my comfort zone.

Anyhow, this is a rather long prelude to what amounts to just another review/critique/meta what have you on a comic book. And it is just that - a comic book. Based on a tv series that was created for teen girls back in the 1990s. Which has spawned a fandom and numerous and rather fascinating fanfiction, some of which I like far better than the published novels I've attempted to read this year. It's odd, in a way, I'd rather write a meta on the fanfic I am re-reading, but I'm still not sure how to write it. Plus writing reviews on fanfic seems to be ...well, weird somehow. Recs are fine. But critical reviews and metas...much like what I've done on Whedon's works...on fanfic, get odd responses. So...I'm thinking keeping my opinions to my self on the latter may be the better approach? Or perhaps safer one?

A bit on comic books in general before I start. Comic books get a bad rap. I don't know why. I've never understood why. But I don't know why soap operas or for that matter pulp detective novels and romance novels get bad raps. Sure there are horridly written versions - but that is true in all the genres. I've read some literary novels that I have no idea how they got published, let alone made it into the literary canon. They all have their moments of brilliance. You just have to slog through a lot of crap to get there is all. Nature of the beast. Hmmm, maybe that's why? Human beings, love them, but not noted for their patience.

Anyhow...this issue much like the last one, has a classic comics cover, and kudos to the excellent embers_log for figuring out that I'd much rather have Jeanty's jaunty take on a classic comics cover than Joan Chen's romantic painting. Starting to realize that I'd undervalued Jeanty's style - he is deliberately coping a specific type of comic art. It may not be my favorite style - too Jack Kirby and Bubble-gum for my taste, but it is definitely deliberate. I'm more of a hyper-realism girl.

This cover is satirical homage to the classic Hoboglobin or Return of the Green Goblin reveal in Spiderman, which has also been done in X-men, with the reveal of who Death was - the villian's main henchman who was systematically attacking, isolating, and killing the X-men. In both cases - the reveal was a friend or close lover of the hero. In Spiderman, the Hobgloblin/Green Goblin Take #2 (Take # 1 was Norman Osborn) - it was Peter's best bud Harry Osborn. In X-men, it was Wolverine. This reveal got all sorts of ooohss and awwwws. And drove up comic sales. Comics like most serials - like to do big plot-twists to garner sales or ratings. They don't always have to make sense. As one pal/critic stated regarding soap operas - they are emotionally driven, not plot driven, half the time the characters are just being thrown into situations for the emotional angst, even if it makes no sense whatsoever logically. Comics, I pointed out to him, are the same way. I don't think he appreciated that. So for that matter, I said, is Buffy - which, hate to break it to you, is written by a comic book/soap opera fan. He didn't appreciate that comment either. We used to have five hour long battles while eating sushi over this very topic. It was fun.

So what to say about this comic? Do you want the snarky review or the meta review? Actually not really giving you a choice. My birthday. And I will snark and make fun of the comic if I want to. Seriousness is on hold until tomorrow, at the very least. Read or not, that's your choice.;-)

I already knew about the big reveal before I read the comic - I also knew how Buffy reacted to the reveal. People have been commenting on it for months. Been rather amusing. Much enjoyment had by all. (I'm serious, there was much enjoyment, that's not snark). So there were no surprises. All of that had been leaked ahead of time. Thank you, Dark Horse. Not that I'm complaining. Made it easier in a way to enjoy the comic.


Initial thoughts, warning much snark below...:

My first thought before going into this in great detail - is that...from a purely moralistic, objective, means justify the ends, perspective - Buffy should have staked Angel in Season One. Now don't get me wrong - I'm rather glad she didn't. I like Angel as a character. Besides, hello, Spike. But, if she had staked Angel in S1, look how many lives she'd have saved. Probably over a thousand. Sure he saved a few people here and there. But not much more than a hundred, give or take. But he cost the lives over a thousand people...including S8. Look how many people died because Buffy wanted some nookie? See ladies this what happens when you think with your crotch. Course if she had killed him, which by the way was Whedon's original plan, the series would have only lasted one season, there'd be no Spike, no Angel the Series, and where would we be? So very glad David Greenwalt and the network brass talked him out of it.

1. The argument that Xander and Buffy are having regarding how she got her powers? This is oddly reminiscent of the argument I had with people on lj last month regarding the same thing. I apparently have been channeling Xander lately. Except I think I liked Xander's explanation better - which of course he stole from a classic Superman comic.(ETA: apparently not a comic, but the movie, although I'd swear I saw it in the comics as well...but what do I know.) Here's the by play:

Xander: No,no, no. You're not taking their powers -- you're getting their power when they die. Like Highlander or Rising Stars.

I take it back my explanation was better.

Buffy (who is clearly channeling certain posters on my flist who shall remain nameless): You're not listening. Since we started, we've lost two hundred and six girls. That's over two hundred girls dead. And now their power--it's in --it's in me.

Xander (or rather me): But it doesn't make you a bad person.

Buffy (or rather other posters, not me): But don't you see what it does make me? If I'm sucking their power it makes me a vampire. (actually the other posters were comparing you to a zombie or a female possum when it eats its young. Vampire? not so much. I'd have been willing to go with the vampire metaphor. Except I still fail to see where the sucking is happening - bit hard to suck people - when you are over a thousand miles away from them. The Highlander motif makes a heck of a lot more sense.)

2. Why are skinless Warren, Amy and the General free to wander? I agree with Dawn on this one. Hello, they've all tried to kill us. Granted, the Scooby Gang has the oddest tendency to take in and accept people who tried to kill them. But this is getting ridiculous. That said, they do provide a handy solution for finding Twilight's secret headquarters - which apparently is three seconds in the future. (yet another reference to time travel - making me wonder if Twilight or Twangel is really from the future after all. Sort of lame, but I can see them doing it.)

3. Apparently Twilight has exactly the same powers as Buffy suddenly got. (Did Twilight go to Tibet first? Let all his powers go? Then do a spell to resurrect a bunch of wrathful Goddesses? Then lose a bunch of colleagues, suck all their powers from them, and whammo, super-strength? So all he had to do to get Buffy super-powered was to make her do the same thing? Nah...can't be that.)

4. Now Twilight gives Giles a speech that sounds a lot like the same speech that the head of the Rossum Corporation gives to Caroline/Echo in the penultimate reveal episode of Dollhouse. It also reminds me of a plot point in rarihah's story Necessary Evils - where it is revealed that slayer's have mysterious dark roots...actually I thought rarihah's fanfic made more sense. In other Words, Twilight is channeling the villian in Dollhouse or rarihah, can't quite decide which - I'm guessing Dollhouse. But at the moment it is a toss-up. Although will state, quite in character - Twangel or rather Angel has always been into the prophecies and the cryptic.

5.Andrew interrupts as Captain America. Sigh - yes, this is a funny sight gag - particularly Twilight's remark - "Andrew - did you just hit me with a frisbee"? and Andrew's rejoinder right out of... (sorry Andrew wrong superhero, Captain America would never say: It's Clobbering Time. That's The Thing....get your heroes right! ETA: Andrew fans have come to his defense and stated correctly that Andrew and Meltzer by proxy basically combined five to six different Marvel heroes. So he's a composite. For the list see the comments below.). Maybe it is just me but what this comic is really needs is a good snarky character who makes fun of everyone and everything. IDW's Angel comics actually still have this in well, Spike. Buffy desperately needs a Spike, Cordy or Anya. Xander and Andrew just aren't cutting it. And Faith, well, Faith has lost her bite.

7. Buffy finally flies, literally, to the rescue. Okay not so much rescue as knocking Twilight into the stratosphere. Which ends with the big reveal. Twilight is Angel or hereinafter known as Twangel! And apparently he hasn't changed a bit, still thinks a bit too highly of himself for his own good. Pride/Ego/Vanity were always Angel's biggest flaws. And Giles, per usual, is all doom and gloom. Seriously, how many times can the world be doomed, Giles? You'd think after learning the plural of apocalypse, you'd get a brighter outlook, be a bit more optimistic? But no, it's all doom and gloom, Buffy can't beat him. We're dead. This tune is getting old, mate.

8. Although to be honest, Giles may have a point...there may be no winning this fight. She's off in the woods trying to fight Twangel. Angel's comments do remind one a bit of Angelus, so I can see why she decides that must be who it is. Not. However, her comment that he should stop talking because his best asset was that he wasn't a talker - is a very good point. Whenever Angel talks he has a tendency to sound well a bit like the head of the Rossum Corporation.

9. Okay here comes the rationalization and long-awaited retcon that the folks at IDW have been waiting for with baited breath..."I didn't kill anyone. This was happening." To which Buffy replies:"Stop saying cryptic crap like that." (Hon, as long as you've known Angel when hasn't he said cryptic crap like that? ) "It happened because you made it happen, you made them hate us."(That and the fact that he kept attacking them wherever they happened to be hiding at the time.) "You really don't know how much worse it could've been? Powerful people, governments lining up to wipe out the terrorists you created. Demons weren't thrilled either." (Okay is he talking about Simone's gang? What terrorists? Also, didn't he line up the governments? Wasn't he in charge of it? How could it have been worse? Course Angel was always rather good at rationalizing things...and it is right here that I thought, Buff, hon, you really should have staked this guy in S3 when he came back the first round...he got his chance, blew it. Let the bloke die.)"I put on a mask, talk about master plans, distract them, keep the body count as low as I can while I push..."

Okay this is where Angel starts to sound exactly like the head of the Rossum Corporation in the penultimate episodes of S2 Dollhouse. OR Skip in Angel S3 to Cordy or Jasmine in Angel S4 or Cordelia in Angel S4, frankly it's a toss-up.

Apparently he's pushed her to become who she is. He and she, the chosen one's have earned this, their power. This is the almighty shanshu. What he tells her is:

You fundamentally shifted the balance of power in this world Buffy. People die when that happens. Every time. It could never be as simple as you hoped. Not on this plane. But it was a pure act. And it meant you were ready.

Skip says to Cordy in S3 that her acceptance of the visions, her pain and suffering are pure acts and it means she is ready to go and become a higher being. Which happens and then Jasmine possesses her and gives birth to itself...and we get shiny happy people.

In Dollhouse, the head of Rossume (who turns out to be someone very Angel like in Caroline/Echo's life - ie. a well trusted and loved associate that everyone loves and trusts) tells Echo that he had to push her to become what she is. Yes, people will die. But it is for the greater good. It is never simple. She is pure and will promote a new tomorrow. Or something along those lines.

Joss Whedon when asked about villians, stated the worste villians, the most evil people he'd met were people who thought they were right, just, and pure. That their cause the best one for all involved. Who believed with absolute certainity they were a hero.

In other words, if this were a superhero comic by any other writer - such as say, Stephanie Meyer or Kelly Armstrong or Bill Willingham? [ETA: According to the comments -apparently not so much Willingham, which may explain why he blew a gasket over this storyline, he already did a similar one in Fables, except he didn't use his competitor's hero.] I'd say, yes, if you are a Bangel or an Angel fan - celebrate and be merry. BUT. It is not. Shipping characters in Joss Whedon stories is disasterous to one's health. Whedon is not that type of writer. If I were an Angel shipper or a Bangel shipper? I'd stop reading now. This is not looking good.

Personally, I'm beginning to miss Buffy/Satsu and have come to the conclusion that I preferred that ship to her other ones in the comics. At least Satsu loved her and treated her with respect. Everyone else...not so much.

10. Does it work? Yes, and no. Plot wise? Angel's plan makes no sense. And the fact that now, all of a sudden, Buffy is getting power? Less sense. Also, it is really hard to buy Angel's retcon, assuming we are supposed to.

But, Buffy's response to Angel makes perfect sense. As does Angel's speech. Both are completely in character. Angel's achillees heel has always been his own vanity and pride. He has to be the champion, he has to be special, to earn god's love. From his perspective, he has shanshued, he can have the girl, the super-powers, the glory. Together they are superman and wonderwoman. This is Angel's wet dream. No more fears of Angelus. Perfect bliss. He can fuck Buffy in the air.

And Buffy's reaction is understandable. She is desperately lonely. That was established from day one. She feels disconnected from everyone. She misses the sex she once had and fantasizes about Angel and Spike. Fantasizes a lot about Angel, the good old days with Angel, when she had someone who adored her. In her head she has romanticized him a bit - but that too makes sense, we romanticize our first love and the might have been. They stay pristine in our heads. Add to this, she was recently reunited with Riley, and rejected by Xander. Xander who fell in love with her sister instead. Who she saw kissing her sister..and who she tried to make a play for, but too late. At the point that she finally fights Twilight - Buffy has suffered quite a few blows:

1. Spike burned to a crisp after she told him she loved him in Chosen
2. Long time between lovers and connections
3. Distance between herself and Giles, which she's struggled with.
4. Struggling with her new role as slayer boss to hundreds of girls
5. Falling for Xander only to see him go for her sister
6. Having part of her team go rogue.
7. Fighting a mysterious nemesis who keeps winning
8. Having to go underground when Vampires become hot items and slayers monsters in the public eye
9. Killing her best friend in the future
10. Giving up her powers and everyone else's only to have half the team killed by Twilight's army. And OZ's wife wounded.
11. Getting super-powers = only to be told that she sucked them from dead slayers like a vampire.

Suddenly Angel appears, tells her no she's not sucking those powers from dead slayers, he has stopped the death toll from being worse, that her motives were pure, that if she joins him, is with him - she'll be happy. They can be together. All is roses and lollipops.

Personally, if I were the Buffster, I'd kiss Angel too and go for it. Twuffy sex commences.

But, remember the last two times this happened...Surprise and well I Will Always Remember You - neither ended well for the Buffster. So again, she'd have been better off if she staked Angel in S1. Much less pain that way.

As for the greater theme? Reminds me a lot of Dollhouse and Angel S4. The celebrity. Worshipping the person who makes us think all our problems will go away. They won't.
The bright glittery glow.

Whedon or rather Brad Meltzer is apparently doing some snarking of his own. They are clearly making fun of the Twilight books. There's even a direct reference to the books. And the last bit about glowing and sparkling in the sun, becoming like me, with me - we were meant together - is right out of Twilight. Which is amusing, since I'm willing to bet the Bella/Edward romance is basically Angel and Buffy without the depth and layers and bite.

It is also to a degree a fairly subversive take on the hero complex or what a hero is. Angel has always wanted to be a hero, to be important. Much like Cordelia, he envies Buffy. As does Willow. But Buffy doesn't want to be a hero, she is the reluctant hero. It is not something she asked for. And the power, rather than filling her with glee, fills her with guilt and shame. She would never understand why Angel gave up the chance to be human, normal and with her. Why he held out for this. It is why they can't work. At the end of the day, she will most likely have to kill him again, like she always does. Over and over and over again.

As for Spike's role in all this, assuming he has one, and yes, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that he does for a whole host of reasons, none of which have anything to do with romance or shipping...I have no clear idea. Speculation, yes. But nothing definite. I don't believe Spike will die - at least not by Twangel or off screen - there's no point and it doesn't move the story forward. Who would care, besides us, and I'm sorry, we don't count. And well Andrew, but also doesn't count. There's been no set-up emotionally speaking for Buffy to lose Spike in this matter, plus, been there done that. No - it would be more emotionally taxing for her if she has to be the one to send both Angel and Spike as well as herself to hell. Look for the worst possible thing the writer can do to the character and that's what he will do. I know he has to show up, because the pattern demands it. I do not believe and I repeat I do NOT believe, in case there is any confusion, that Spike and Buffy will be romantically reunited and ride off into the sunset together...well they might ride off into hell fighting...but one never knows with Whedon. Any more than I think Buffy and Angel are going to ride off into the sunset together or twilight as it were.

I do know, however, where this is headed. And why Spike and Angel have to come into play here. Whedon is preparing for the end game. The act that takes us into the Frayverse. He's been trying to link the two verses since S7. Personally, I think this is mistake because the problems I had with S7 and the problems I have with S8 plotwise are directly connected to that attempt. OTOH - I freely admit, one of the major reasons that I'm reading this thing still is to see how he links them, how Buffy seals herself and the demons into that alternate dimension, leaving poor Willow behind to keep the door shut, and deal with the cleanup. I think what will happen is Buffy will sacrifice herself and take the demons into the other dimension and Willow will seal the hole - with the backlash washing over her and filling her with power that she can't get rid of or use. Making her immortal, cursed. Willow - who tore Buffy from heaven thinking she was in hell, will be the one ultimately responsible for sealing her best friend in hell - unable to get back to this world, stuck forever elsewhere. And this will eat Willow up alive. And it is the reason DarkWillow brings Buffy to the future, before all of this occurs to kill her. As DarkWillow states - it is not that you are murdered that matters, it is who murders you. And I think that is the key.

Final bits...that bear consideration...much of this was foreshadowed by a Long Way Home and I am willing to bet that the final five issues will echo a Long Way Home in a different way.
What happened with Buffy in a Long Way Home? She fell asleep. In her dream she tries to kiss Xander, tries to be a couple with him after discussing Dawn, but he loses his head and backs away. (in reality he loses his head over her sister and backs away) A man entered her dream who looked like Angel and was floating in air, dressed in similar colors to Twilight, he said my love...then she saw it was Ethan and threw up in her mouth a little. (In reality, she thinks he's someone else, then realizes it is Angel, fights him and then kisses him) He kept making illusions to love. The first dream he breaks into is her sex fantasy with Spike and Angel, where she and Angel are leaning towards each other, and Spike is behind. Then she fights demons,
and Ethan takes her to the Sunnydale crater to Amy's rat cage, to a crucifix, and a number. While in the non-dream world - they are fighting off zombies, and Willow comes up with a way to break the spell. Satsu should kiss Buffy - someone who truly loves her, true loves kiss, will break the spell. And it does.

I think the last several issues are following that dream. So far, in Turbulence we had Xander losing his head over Dawn and backing away from Buffy's declarations of Love. In this issue, we have the Ethan/Buffy floating scene and the kissage. So...what is next, has a lot to do with the dream.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. One never knows with comic books.

Overall a fun read.



ETA: The comments have massive spoilers on Dollhouse. Sorry I didn't catch that sooner folks. I tried to avoid spoiling above, but failed miserably. Mucho apologies to anyone who got accidentally spoiled for Dollhouse.

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It seems like there's just something awkward about subjecting your peers to the same scrutiny you'd subject the source material to - even though it's not necessarily negative criticism, and I think there are some fanfics out there that would certainly stand up to in-depth analysis.

I think you are right. The difference is that the original author or source author tends to be oblivious to our criticism of his/her work as do his friends, family, etc. (Although I have been ripped to shreds by fans regarding critiques of tv shows - Whedonesque board members really ripped me a new one for deigning to speak ill, even slightly so, of their precious Dollhouse during the first season. Poor Simon. It wasn't his fault.) Remember a professional actor telling me once that you should never read reviews of your work - the accolades will give you a big head and make you cocky, the criticism will kill your ego and make you self-conscious. Best to ignore both. Not bad advice. Except actors get applause, writers...we don't not unless we read our own reviews.
And professional writers are no different than fanfic writers, they can't take criticism either - you should have seen Anne Rice attack her critics on Amazon.com. It was embarrassing. With fanfic, I think..it has a lot to do with the fact that we know we are playing with the forbidden, so much of fanfic is sexual fantasy, something the outside world scoffs at and makes fun of. That we can't tell people outside of fandom about. So...because of that, people are itchier and more nervous.
It's almost more personal in a way, than ordinary fic is. Or at least that's been my impression.

Yeah... the problem Joss seems to have, though, is that when he tries to do that, the villain always comes across as ridiculous. Boyd's speech in Dollhouse seemed to come out of nowhere and was so bizarrely OOC. And the only way to make what's coming out of Angel's mouth sound reasonable is if we assume he's completely out of his mind on glow juice. Joss is dead on in thinking that the best villain believes he's the hero of the story. He just doesn't write them in a way that's at all convincing.

Agreed. I felt much the same way. Boyd as the head of Rossum did not work for me. It was set-up poorly. And felt very much out of nowhere.
Did not help that he was my favorite character. Also felt a bit preachy.

Angel - while I can see Angel doing that, at the same time, the speech doesn't quite play, due to the fact that Angel has lived this storyline.
Hello, Season 4 ATS. Cordelia gets all glowy in S3, goes to Heaven, comes back, gives birth to Jasmine - who pretty much gives exactly the same speech to Angel that Angel is giving to Buffy. Heck the same one that Skip gave to Cordelia. You'd think that Angel of all people would see through it? Granted it is ironic as all get-out, that Angel is pulling the Jasmine stick with Buffy. But...at the same time, it devolves the character a bit. Although I suppose you could argue that it doesn't really devolve him, that he's evolved into another sort of anti-hero? I don't know. I still think Hank Summers or Giles might have worked better. Granted there'd be no flying sex...

I think that would be a really interesting - and dark! - ending, except I don't see how that leaves much room for a Season 9, which Joss and Scott Allie definitely seem to be planning on.

Actually I don't think the whole sealing into another dimension thing will happen until S9. I think that may well be S9's arc. This is the set-up for that.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

With fanfic, I think..it has a lot to do with the fact that we know we are playing with the forbidden, so much of fanfic is sexual fantasy, something the outside world scoffs at and makes fun of. That we can't tell people outside of fandom about. So...because of that, people are itchier and more nervous.
It's almost more personal in a way, than ordinary fic is. Or at least that's been my impression.

I have the impression that the new generation of fans is more tolerant to critique. After your notes on one the recently posted fics I had an exchange with Angearia about it. I wrote that I'd be thrilled to read your concrit, even if you'd critisize me harshly - I'd be like "OMG, she reads my stuff!" Angearia replied that her reaction would be the same. And it was sincere. Not that I think that you'd read and critique my stuff - I write silly OOC stories and I'm the first person to tell you that they're not worthy of serious critical analysis.

But I've got the impression that recently many peoplу are okay with concrit. Back in 2005-2006 there was a concrit community
http://community.livejournal.com/ficconcrit/profile
it's pretty inactive now, but maybe we should try to revitalize it?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I have the impression that the new generation of fans is more tolerant to critique. After your notes on one the recently posted fics I had an exchange with Angearia about it. I wrote that I'd be thrilled to read your concrit, even if you'd critisize me harshly - I'd be like "OMG, she reads my stuff!" Angearia replied that her reaction would be the same. And it was sincere. Not that I think that you'd read and critique my stuff - I write silly OOC stories and I'm the first person to tell you that they're not worthy of serious critical analysis.

Thank you! That's lovely to hear. And quite flattering.

I think - the writers are more open to concrit then their fans are. It's almost as if the fans of the writer's fanfic are getting defensive and upset on the writer's behalf. Which I find odd. Because I've never seen a writer get upset with me doing a concrit of their work on my blog. But their fans often act as if I committed a crime by critiquing something they love. They come to its defense and the writers almost as if they created it.

I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that we love things differently? Some people don't want to critique what they love, they just like to clap. Squee. And adore it. While others want to rip it apart, analyze it, critique, figure it out, and nitpick. There's a clear conflict between the two groups of fans. The ones who just adore don't get that the nitpickers and analytical group is also adoring the fic, but in a different way. If they didn't like it, they wouldn't say a thing. Or rather, if they didn't care, they wouldn't say a thing.

At any rate, you managed to change my mind. I've thought it over and decided, screw the fans and their delicate sensibilities, I care most about the writers. I'm a writer. I'd be flattered if someone did a concrit of my writing or referenced it. I am flattered when they do.

[next_to_normal]

The difference is that the original author or source author tends to be oblivious to our criticism of his/her work

Exactly. And I think that gives us much more rein to speak freely - we don't have to worry about the author being upset by our criticism, or offended that we view the story in a way that wasn't intended. I'm sure there are authors out there who don't mind hearing that kind of analysis of their work, but much like any constructive criticism, a few angry reactions makes people very hesitant to engage.

Angel - while I can see Angel doing that, at the same time, the speech doesn't quite play, due to the fact that Angel has lived this storyline.

I think the overall idea is in character for Angel - it certainly wouldn't be the first time he did something "for Buffy's own good" without consulting her, nor would it be OOC for him to sacrifice innocent lives for the greater good. But the way he tells Buffy "I didn't do this, it just happened" and "it could've been so much worse" just make him sound delusional. Perhaps it could've been worse - but it also could've been a LOT better, if Angel had tried harder to minimize casualties, or if he had actually talked to Buffy instead of trying to "push her." The Angel of the TV series, I think, might do the same things, but he wouldn't try to act like it completely wasn't his fault.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And I think that gives us much more rein to speak freely - we don't have to worry about the author being upset by our criticism, or offended that we view the story in a way that wasn't intended.

Interestingly enough...it's not the writers who are objecting. I've rarely if ever had a writer object to a concrit post or meta that I've done on their work.
Mostly they stay silent. The few, very few, who commented - told me that they were flattered that I did one or enjoyed reading it. I remember doing a concrit review of a published novel by Elizabeth Bear (who was also at the time on my lj flist). She linked to the review and stated that she appreciated the criticism. (Granted it was not that negative in tone and fairly tame to other reviews she's received. I did not rip her novels apart.)

No, the angry reactions I've recieved have oddly enough been from fans of the writer's work or their best buds. The fans are uncomfortable with the concrit, not the actual writer. Darkapple never said anything regarding my concrit of her work - assuming she was even aware of it. (Which I doubt). Nor did unbridled_b. The only ones who did - were on my flist.
But when I write a concrit - I'm aware that the person I'm writing about could happen upon it at any time. If it is a public, unfiltered post - that's the risk you take. So I write it with the view that they may see it and blast me for it. BUT - they never have.

Same deal with the source material...Whedon seldon responds to reviews or is negative towards them, well outside of that little ditty he did for Dr. Horrible commentary. But his fans..OTOH.

Over the years I've discovered that...a lot of fans are uncomfortable with any criticism of something they love. Don't spit on my show or fic as the case may be.
Not understanding that for some fans, like myself, the critical bit is part of the fun. I tend to be highly critical of the things I love. If it didn't compell me or move me, I forget about it and say nothing most of the time. But if I love it to pieces, to the point of being a fan - of wanting to own it, then I'll criticize it, pull it apart, put it together again, and try to figure out what it is about it that makes me love it so much, or compells me, and what it is that makes me crazy and I don't like at all. A lot of people don't get that. They don't understand the need to criticize something you adore or compells you. ;-)
But I think for the writer, while it can be annoying when fans nitpick or critique, it is also flattering - because obviously they liked it on some level or they wouldn't be bothering to do it. And if they take the time to write about in their own journal, blog, etc - outside of the writers...then hello, free advertising.
That's a whole new group of readers gravitating towards your fic...that may not have known about it otherwise.

think the overall idea is in character for Angel - it certainly wouldn't be the first time he did something "for Buffy's own good" without consulting her, nor would it be OOC for him to sacrifice innocent lives for the greater good. But the way he tells Buffy "I didn't do this, it just happened" and "it could've been so much worse" just make him sound delusional.

Agreed. I had the same issues with Boyd in Dollhouse.
The set-up doesn't quite work. To pull that off, they should have revealed who Twilight was earlier and set up his thought process - and let the big emotional reveal be Buffy's reaction. Putting us completely in Buffy's pov here - is, I think, counter-productive for the overall story and plot line. It makes Angel's story harder to buy. Also, I'm sorry, he sounds like Jasmine in S4 Angel - who more or less gave him exactly the same speech. "Don't you just want to be happy? I'm giving you what you earned. You can put your burdens down. The world is a better place now...join me. Sure people die. They have to. But there will be a lot less deaths...if we do it this way." Jasmine? Made sense. She was a higher being.
But Angel? Mr. Dark and Gloomy, Guilt Ridden? Not so much. Unless he sees this as the shanshu and his reward? In which case maybe he's just drunk on power?

[next_to_normal]

Interestingly enough...it's not the writers who are objecting.

Yeah... if all the posts I see from authors wishing they got concrit are any indication, there are plenty of people out there who'd appreciate it. But at the same time, I also see many, many people who say they'll never leave concrit for a fic, because they don't know how they author will take it, or they'll only do it for someone they know well. So even if most writers don't mind, the perception is definitely out there that writers don't want to hear your criticism.

Over the years I've discovered that...a lot of fans are uncomfortable with any criticism of something they love.

Oh yes, especially in some factions of Whedon fandom. People get verrrrry defensive. But I am a lot like you - if I love something, I'll pick it to pieces, lol. The plot holes in BtVS bother me SO much more than, say, the plot holes in Chuck because I'm so much more invested in BtVS.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed on both.

Oh yes, especially in some factions of Whedon fandom. People get verrrrry defensive. But I am a lot like you - if I love something, I'll pick it to pieces, lol. The plot holes in BtVS bother me SO much more than, say, the plot holes in Chuck because I'm so much more invested in BtVS.

Hee. Yes. I watch a lot of tv shows, but I only bother to write about three or four of them, and not all the time. Whedon's Buffy was amongst the very few that I ever wrote critiques of. And comics? I've read numerous comics...but only critiqued this one.