Cranky musing

[shadowkat]

It's stuffy in the office today, put on the fan. Helped a bit. And the air finally came on, but am regretting wearing my work sweater (with zip underneath). Love them, but they are problematic when one gets hot. Can't exactly take the damn things off, you know.

Restrained myself from responding to a Bangle shipper who commented on one of my old Buffy reviews, can't remember which one. Deleted the email from the email queue not the post (it's still there - I'm just pretending it isn't which is rather easy to do since I rarely if ever re-read old posts let alone comments threads), to avoid responding. Because honestly? What's the point? This is one of those arguements that I've decided is unwinnable and useless to enter into on the net or real life, unless of course you want to frustrate yourself for no apparent reason. (I've got work and apartment hunting for that, don't need help from other quarters).

The arguement basically consists of this:

My romantic relationship is better and more canonical than your romantic relationship, and obviously the hero/heroine's true love is obviously this character. And you are an idiot for not seeing it my way and loving it the way I do. Nyah, nyah, nyah. (Examples: Doctor 10/Rose vs. Doctor/River vs. Doctor/Martha vs. Doctor/Donna or Spike/Buffy vs. Angel/Buffy, vs. Riley/Buffy, vs. Xander/Buffy etc...) This debate has zip to do with story, character evolution, theme, or anything = other than well my team is better than your team mentality. I'm tempted to tell the nitwits who attempt to engage me in this blather to go to a football or baseball game, preferably an away game with a bunch of fans who are rooting for the other team.

Folks - I liked Bangel back in 1997-2000. I grew up. Changed. Got older. Wisened up. And got over it. I'm not going to just devolve and like them again. I moved on with the story as I tend to do. If the story convinced me that they were still a couple or were meant for each other? Than sure, I'd be into them. But it hasn't. If anything it's (and by it's - I mean the Angel and Buffy tv series and the stupid comics) done the exact opposite, convinced me with absolute and unwavering certaintity that both of these characters (Angel and Buffy) would be better off with just about anyone else. And well shouldn't even be allowed in the same room together. There's absolutely nothing at all in either the series or the comics that can change my mind on that. Ever. If there was - I would have changed it. Ain't gonna happen. I'm more likely to change my mind about Sara Palin or George W. Bush...which also is highly unlikely to happen...

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Whenever one of the old, old arguments rear their heads I find myself shaking my head with 'not this again.'

Look, we all watched the show. We formed opinions. Our opinions are based on what we saw and what we think and someone arguing with me ten years later isn't going to change anything... for either of us.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yep pretty much. There's about four or five fandom debates that I refuse to discuss any longer - 1)anything regarding Seeing Red,
2)anything regarding Dead Things, 3) who is better Spike or Angel (personally I think they are hot together, but that's just me), 4) whether Willow's arc sucked beans in S6, and 5) who Buffy's one twu love is.

To be fair - the response was to one of my Buffy comic reviews - I'm not sure which - it was either 35, 36 or 37 - which to me was a while ago. And the comment was "gee, everyone is a spuffy fan on this thread, why is that?" Sigh. Head*desk.
Then telling me how wrong I and everyone else's pov is and why Angel is clearly the one! And Spike is just a douche... Sigh, why do people insist on doing this? I don't understand.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Nothing says true love like trying to destroy the world twice three times!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! Or killing all of your lover's army, trying to kill their friends, and leaving them whenever they really need you and are depressed.

[elisi]

I can never understand that some fans can't grasp the fact that other people like different things - and that this is OK.

To use some of your examples, then Buffy/Angel and Ten/Rose don't do a lot for me. Spike/Buffy and Doctor/River OTOH hit pretty much all my buttons. But I know this is a subjective opinion, and I'd never bash the former ships - indeed, those ships were immensely important to the characters, and failing to take that into consideration is pretty blinkered, to say the least.

(Also see the Gwen/Jack/Ianto triangle where all the characters got on beautifully and the fans devolved into fierce fighting...)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. Yeah, I'm pretty much a River/Doctor and Spike/Buffy (also Spike/Angel) fan myself. I need comedy in my fictional romantic relationships and banter, lots of banter.

I think part of the reason people fight over it - is for some reason they think another fan's opinion will have influence over what the writers or story-teller will actually do. (I've only seen this happen with daytime serials...and occassionally super-hero comic books that last forever and rely on subscribers. They might cater to fans a bit. And often have fans writing for them. But rarely.) So if they can convince that fan to validate their pov or have the same pov, then they know that the story will work out the way they wish it to. (This never happens. Whedon and RTD could care less what fans think. They are writing the story their own way.)

[elisi]

also Spike/Angel
Ooooh yes. And (for me) Jack/Ianto and Doctor/Master. Like you say, it's about the banter. (My litmus test - as it were - is whether you could put them in a bare room, all by themselves, and just watch them bounce off each other. (Not literally, although that is also an option.) If they can snark, argue and be funny all on their very own, I'm generally there.)

I think part of the reason people fight over it - is for some reason they think another fan's opinion will have influence over what the writers or story-teller will actually do.
That's... huh. I read RTD's The Writer's Tale recently, and it starts at the time when S3 of DW is just about to air. RTD is at that point beginning to plan S4. So all the rage and complaints that fans can throw at him literally make no difference because he's a year ahead. They dislike Martha's story? Tough, he's already busy writing Donna. I guess it makes more sense on a show where the characters don't change from season to season, but still, the writers will always be way, way ahead.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

guess it makes more sense on a show where the characters don't change from season to season, but still, the writers will always be way, way ahead

I think a lot of fans assume that they either aren't well ahead or they can change the outcome? Hence all the email campaigns (which annoy me to no end.)

Another thing that occurred to me...many fans will see something in a character or story that deeply offends them.
Example - Sherlock Holmes fandom had a kerfuffle a while back, because many fans were offended by how certain things were being depicted and did not understand why other fans weren't equally offended. Same thing happened in Buffy - Seeing Red and Lies My Parents Told Me - in which the fans who were offended and hated Spike or the story as a result, were furious with other fans who did not perceive it the same way they did. It was impossible for them to wrap their minds around the concept that what they perceived may not be what their friends did.
So they ended up not only judging the story, but also their friends or other fans who did enjoy the story and continued to enjoy or like the character - often harshly and unjustly. Not realizing by doing so - that they came off as self-righteous jerks/bullies for imposing their view on to everyone else. It's a danger - I think, we all run into when we do meta or critical analysis - of super-imposing our views onto others? I've certainly been struggling with it - and where exactly is that line I don't want to cross.

[elisi]

All fans should be forced to read Your Friends Are Not Watching the Same Show You Are (And That's Okay) before they join any fandom. It would stop SO much nonsense.

[rahirah]

Amen.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. Thanks!

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I never liked Bangel, I thought he was too old and experienced for her, and I resented his 'mentoring' attitude.... But I was perfectly willing to believe that the Buffy was supposed to love Angel and I can even believe she has a tenderness for her first love.
I just happen to love Spike way more myownself (I love articulate and funny men), and I liked that Buffy had more power in the relationship. But even so I would have found it perfectly easy to accept Spike's demise if he had died at the end of BtVS S7's finale 'Chosen'.

I'm glad Spike didn't die because Brian Lynch's comics have brought me great joy.

Oh and I also found Doctor Who #10/Rose to be really soppy and annoying.... River Song seems like a better fit, but I'm content w/my Doctor being all alone in the world. JMPO of course.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I understood early Bangle. Heck, I liked the initial relationship.
But now? It makes no sense. The guy has destroyed the world three times, he has tried to kill all of her friends, and has sucessfully killed many of the people under her protection or were her direct responsibility. And he's still hurting people.
(shrugs).

Anywho...people think differently. Which is why having arguments about stuff like this is sort of pointless. Three things I no longer or try to no longer argue about:

1. religion
2. politics
3. Buffy's relationships and other character relationships. ;-)

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

it is a waste of time arguing about subjective personal opinion... it can be discussed for the interest/comparison, but the second people start thinking they are 'right' and you are 'wrong' then all conversation is at an end. I really like knowing how my friends are seeing BtVS, but I do try to avoid announcing that they are watching it wrong! lol

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Easier said than done, I'm afraid. Was discussing this over the phone tonight with my mother - regarding politics. She is a liberal democrat living amongst ultra-conservative Republicans, many of whom voted for Tea Party candidates and hate Obama. She can't discuss politics with her friends. And she can't understand why they see it that way. Their logic confounds her. It's no different with reading the comics or watching a tv series - we forget that we think differently. And how we think does change over time. I don't think the same way I did ten-fifteen years ago. No one does. Not really.

Experiences both internal and external, as well as vicarious change us.

I admittedly do not understand how anyone in their right mind can
see Buffy and Angel as true love or a great romance based on the comic books. How they can't see what to me is obvious satire...and
ridicule, is beyond me. But...I also don't understand how my Aunt in Michigan voted for Bush for two terms, loved him, and voted Republican. Or how my cousin adores the Twilight novels. I still love them. I agree with them on other things. I just don't understand their thinking - it's alien to me. But equally, they don't understand how I think either. We choose not to talk about it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I love my Aunt and cousin, not Twilight and Bush..in case of confusion.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wish I could see what they find so appealing. But then I think...nah. To each her own.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Understood it in the first three season, but after IWRY and Sanctuary, the appeal of that relationship is utterly lost on me.
(shrugs). But hey, I don't understand why people voted the way they did in the last election either...which affects my life a lot more.