Fandom Shipper Questions

[shadowkat]

Have some questions for shippers? (I'm trying not to answer or judge here - because I want to understand perspectives that are different from my own. I'm not sure I'm really a shipper, because while I care about relationships, I care about story more. Happily Ever After is not an ending I want or crave really...although it would be nice on occasion, since tragic endings get rather old.)

Which comes first and foremost or is the most important to you: Ship or Story? Characters Emotional Arc or Ship?

*Do you read a book series or watch a tv show/series solely for the romantic relationship ignoring the rest?
* Or is the "ship" just icing, making the show that much more tasty?
* Or is the characters arcs and their story/overall plot what is important? (ie. even if your favorite "ship" never comes to pass or doesn't work out - that's fine as long as it makes sense to the character's arc and is interesting and crunchy? The story comes before the ship?)

This question is the result of latest flirtation with a fan spoiler board for a urban fantasy novel - where I noticed the vast majority of posters were saying - while the book is good, I'm frustrated because I'm not sure about my ship? Or I'm so happy - my ship may happen! Or I threw the book across the room because it killed my ship? Or my dream is for the character to have her moonlight wedding...with T or I or A? The book in question is NOT a romance novel. So this begs the question - is a happily ever after romance necessary?

Is the ship the reason you are watching or reading? OR is it secondary? Or does it depend on the story? ie. For House and Sherlock - you only watch for House/Wilson or Sherlock/Watson - ignoring everything else. Or for Buffy, you only watched for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike? Yet for another show, say BSG, you didn't ship at all and watched for the entire story?

And to what degree has shipping influenced your fanfic/meta writing? Or for that matter, your abhorrence of shipping influenced your writing, involvement in fandom, and reactions to it?
If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics? Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)? How would you view say Doctor Who - if Ten had fallen in love with Martha Jones instead of Rose Tyler? And how does this influence your reactions to other's in fandom - do you find shipping a positive or negative or a bit of both kind of thing?

Comments

[rahirah]

The vast majority of the time, I'm not a shipper. I'm usually happy to accept whatever pairings or non-pairings the writer throws at me. I may like them or dislike them, but I don't care about them passionately in a way that can be divorced from my like or dislike of the story as a whole. For example, by the time "Friends" ended, I was thoroughly bored and disgusted with Ross/Rachel and wished that they would both be devoured by fire ants, but that was because the writers had milked the will-they-won't-they, makeup/breakup cycle until I just didn't care any longer and actively resented being dicked around. I don't care if they ended up together or apart, I was just sick of watching them.

By the end of "Farscape," on the other hand, I was cheering John and Aeryn on - but if they hadn't ended up together (with a baby, even) I wouldn't have felt cheated because their stories were so interesting.

The difference, I think, was that while both shows introduced obstacles to keep their main pairing apart and keep the fans agonizing, the obstacles that separated John and Aeryn (and might well have led to them breaking up for good) felt far more real and integral to the characters. I resent it when I think that a writer is trying to manipulate me in a cynical way. And I think that's one big reason I resent Joss in the one case where I am an active shipper. I can totally understand an author not wanting to do a particular ship because it doesn't fit the story they want to tell, or their conception of the characters. I've been in that position myself. I can understand getting irritated by shippers' persistence in the face of repeated assertions that it ain't gonna happen. But I hate it when an author is coy. I hate it when a writer jerks fans around (and I think that Joss does that to both B/A and B/S shippers).

I very, very rarely find a ship objectionable in and of itself. There are ships I don't get, ships I don't care about, ships I think are a terrible idea. But I don't care if other people think differently and love them and ship them. What gets my goat are the shippers who attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. I have no beef with B/A; it isn't my thing, but who cares? There is a subset of B/A shippers, on the other hand, who've shaped my fandom participation in a negative way. (To be clear, I think that all fan factions have that negative subset; it's not limited to any one ship b y any means.)

A ship is never the main reason I start watching/reading something. (Unless it's a story that is clearly billed as a romance, in which case, of course the ship is the main reason to read/watch.) It's very rarely the only reason I keep reading/watching. In fact, if a ship is the only reason I'm watching something, I think that's a big red warning sign that the story is pretty crappy, or has become so.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was thoroughly bored and disgusted with Ross/Rachel and wished that they would both be devoured by fire ants, but that was because the writers had milked the will-they-won't-they, makeup/breakup cycle until I just didn't care any longer and actively resented being dicked around

A television trope that has quickly become an annoying cliche that everyone from Whedon to well the creators of Castle have done to death.

It's lazy writing. One of the things I adored most about Ben Browder's commentaries on Farscape - was he kept complaining about this particular trope. The need to keep the two leads apart because the writers can't figure out how to make them interesting and keep the sexual tension up after they sleep together and continue in a relationship. Whedon used to say Sam and Diane sleeping together ruined Cheers (actually it didn't, Cheers changed and evolved after it). As Browder stated - it's not realistic. Come on - of course Crichton and Aeryn did it.
It's contrived suspense.

Rachel/Ross is a perfect example of how it can ruine a pairing and a show - when they continue with it past a certain point.

The difference, I think, was that while both shows introduced obstacles to keep their main pairing apart and keep the fans agonizing, the obstacles that separated John and Aeryn (and might well have led to them breaking up for good) felt far more real and integral to the characters.

An example of what good writing can do. Aeryn/John managed to maintain sexual tension regardless of whether they slept together. And what kept them apart was understandable. It made sense she wouldn't hop into John's double's arms after "her" John died. And that he would be slow to trust her again, after she returned with the living death illness, having left him, pregnant. That worked and did not feel "contrived".

And I think that's one big reason I resent Joss in the one case where I am an active shipper. I can totally understand an author not wanting to do a particular ship because it doesn't fit the story they want to tell, or their conception of the characters. I've been in that position myself. I can understand getting irritated by shippers' persistence in the face of repeated assertions that it ain't gonna happen. But I hate it when an author is coy. I hate it when a writer jerks fans around (and I think that Joss does that to both B/A and B/S shippers).

Agreed, on all of the above. I think Whedon deliberately did that and laughed his head off at people in the process. After reading various interviews, commentaries, and the actual work - I've finally come to the conclusion that Whedon is a sadistic jerk when it comes to his professional career as tv writer, director, etc. (No clue what he is like outside of work. My guess is - he's a by-product of his environment. The entertainment industry is a nasty business. From all reports Whedon started out nice enough, the business turned into an asshat.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I am always intrigued when people name John/Aeryn as an example of a ship done well, because for me, there was an entire season where it really wasn't which nearly turned me off Farscape for good, and where the writers were guilty of every mistake they had until then avoided - season 4. The angst keeping John and Aeryn apart in s4 is entirely artificial, as opposed to their previous issues. And it's solved in incredibly lazy ways. ZOMG John takes drugs in order not to love Aeryn anymore. ZOMG not really, he only faked it and his distance so Scorpius would not guess Aeryn means more than the world to him. (Because you know, nothing could have POSSIBLY led Scorpius to the conclusion that John loves Aeryn otherwise. (Seriously, the scene where Aeryn and John make up and he gives her that explanation has to be one of the most insulting to viewer's intelligence in television.) He's been the sole person in the universe who didn't notice.) ZOMG Aeryn asks John to accept Scorpius on Moya! What (other than getting sick) happened to her in the months they've been apart? Why, we find out later that season, in the episode which should have been the Aeryn equivalent of "Won't get fooled again" but wasn't: she has come to the breathtaking concusion... that John is the only man she really loved. No really. She LOOOOOOVES him. We would never have guessed that before the episode "The Prayer".
Aeryn until s4 had other relationships that were part of her storyarc - with Pilot, with Talyn, with Craish, her mother. S4 Aeryn? Solely lives and dies for John. Oh, and everyone else in the ensemble? Has stopped getting stories of their own, too. They only exist as a Greek chorus to the John/Aeryn melodrama. Exemplified in the s4 cliffhanger ending.
...this is why I am so glad we got the Peacekeeper Wars. It wasn't perfect, but it was Farscape back to form again and also reconciled me to John/Aeryn by presenting them as a functional couple again instead of just the type of shippery black hole in a show I can't stand.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think it's really in how you interpret that last season to be honest. And I'm admittedly of two minds about it. Since I'm not sure the plotting totally works and that arachnid episode is my least favorite episode next to Jeremiah Crichton.

There's two interpretations that I've read to date, yours and oursin who brought a completely different view to my attention about a year or so ago.
At least I think it was oursin.

The other view - states looks at John and Aeryn's relationship through the lense of post-traumatic stress disorder or how people react to a sustained amount of violence, torture and the fear of it over a lengthy period of time.

For example: John's use of the drug - he starts using it long before Aeryn returns, and in a situation that has zip to do with Aeryn. It's to focus, to override Graceila's unique brand of torture. Then slowly, he starts using it more and more - to focus, to not allow his emotions/feelings for Aeryn to rule him. At the end of Dog With Two Bones - John realized he had to decide between Aeryn and returning to Earth (wormholes). He chooses Aeryn, but she leaves and doesn't allow him to come with her. So at the start of S4 he decides to return to Earth - to figure out the wormhole technology no matter what. But his feelings for Aeryn, his emotions keep getting in his way.

Aeryn and John in effect change places, Aeryn had shut herself from all emotion, she stopped feeling. And even tells John at the start of S3, that feeling love or passion for a crew member puts them at a disadvantage. It cost Zahaan her life. Aeryn learns this is not true or isn't working for her. John, OTOH,
decides that shutting off his emotions, letting the "scientist" take over, and focusing solely on wormholes is the answer. He believes his pursuit of Aeryn is a weakness.

In the Arachnid episode (can't remember the name of it but it's the one in which he reveals the reason he's been using the drugs, or at least I think it is) - John says that he can't let anyone know how much he cares about Aeryn or the baby because they'll use Aeryn and the baby against him. (This would include Scorpius, but I think it is pretty much everyone - since he takes the drug on Earth as well.) Keep in mind - John has seen Aeryn die because of him. And Scorpius used Aeryn's condition - the living death - to get on Moya. Also, John got captured by Scorpius in the first place because of Aeryn. From John's perspective - Aeryn is his achillees heel. Hence the drugs.

That actually works for me.

Could it have been written better? Definitely. But the show was written so fast, that I give them a pass. (They were apparently filming and writing season 4 and 5 back to back - so had a very quick filming schedule.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

To clarify: Even though S5 never aired, they'd planned on filming it right after the last episode of S4 within the same year. Farscape had one of the fastest filming schedules out there - which amazes me. The first season they actually filmed two episodes at once, sometimes three at once - but stopped when they realized it was killing their actors and crew - both Claudia Black and Anthony Simuco got injured.