Fandom Shipper Questions

[shadowkat]

Have some questions for shippers? (I'm trying not to answer or judge here - because I want to understand perspectives that are different from my own. I'm not sure I'm really a shipper, because while I care about relationships, I care about story more. Happily Ever After is not an ending I want or crave really...although it would be nice on occasion, since tragic endings get rather old.)

Which comes first and foremost or is the most important to you: Ship or Story? Characters Emotional Arc or Ship?

*Do you read a book series or watch a tv show/series solely for the romantic relationship ignoring the rest?
* Or is the "ship" just icing, making the show that much more tasty?
* Or is the characters arcs and their story/overall plot what is important? (ie. even if your favorite "ship" never comes to pass or doesn't work out - that's fine as long as it makes sense to the character's arc and is interesting and crunchy? The story comes before the ship?)

This question is the result of latest flirtation with a fan spoiler board for a urban fantasy novel - where I noticed the vast majority of posters were saying - while the book is good, I'm frustrated because I'm not sure about my ship? Or I'm so happy - my ship may happen! Or I threw the book across the room because it killed my ship? Or my dream is for the character to have her moonlight wedding...with T or I or A? The book in question is NOT a romance novel. So this begs the question - is a happily ever after romance necessary?

Is the ship the reason you are watching or reading? OR is it secondary? Or does it depend on the story? ie. For House and Sherlock - you only watch for House/Wilson or Sherlock/Watson - ignoring everything else. Or for Buffy, you only watched for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike? Yet for another show, say BSG, you didn't ship at all and watched for the entire story?

And to what degree has shipping influenced your fanfic/meta writing? Or for that matter, your abhorrence of shipping influenced your writing, involvement in fandom, and reactions to it?
If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics? Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)? How would you view say Doctor Who - if Ten had fallen in love with Martha Jones instead of Rose Tyler? And how does this influence your reactions to other's in fandom - do you find shipping a positive or negative or a bit of both kind of thing?

Comments

[liliaeth]

It depends on the fandom/show/book, whatever.

Most of the time what comes first for me is character. I have to hook on at least one character before I can bother to give a damn about the storyline.

I don't ship in all fandoms, and even in most of the ones I do, the shipping itself matters less than the characters.

It's only in some shows like Buffy, that shipping becomes more than just part of the show. And then it's mostly because my love of a character has been hit by how he or she treated another character.

By the end of s7, I just needed to believe that Buffy really loved Spike, just to keep on giving a damn about her, because of the way she'd treated him. It's stupid really, but I just wanted to believe that she'd grown as a person. And I guess that's why I can't bring myself to like any part of s8, because it didn't answer that question except in a way to destroy Buffy's character even more.

[rahirah]

The vast majority of the time, I'm not a shipper. I'm usually happy to accept whatever pairings or non-pairings the writer throws at me. I may like them or dislike them, but I don't care about them passionately in a way that can be divorced from my like or dislike of the story as a whole. For example, by the time "Friends" ended, I was thoroughly bored and disgusted with Ross/Rachel and wished that they would both be devoured by fire ants, but that was because the writers had milked the will-they-won't-they, makeup/breakup cycle until I just didn't care any longer and actively resented being dicked around. I don't care if they ended up together or apart, I was just sick of watching them.

By the end of "Farscape," on the other hand, I was cheering John and Aeryn on - but if they hadn't ended up together (with a baby, even) I wouldn't have felt cheated because their stories were so interesting.

The difference, I think, was that while both shows introduced obstacles to keep their main pairing apart and keep the fans agonizing, the obstacles that separated John and Aeryn (and might well have led to them breaking up for good) felt far more real and integral to the characters. I resent it when I think that a writer is trying to manipulate me in a cynical way. And I think that's one big reason I resent Joss in the one case where I am an active shipper. I can totally understand an author not wanting to do a particular ship because it doesn't fit the story they want to tell, or their conception of the characters. I've been in that position myself. I can understand getting irritated by shippers' persistence in the face of repeated assertions that it ain't gonna happen. But I hate it when an author is coy. I hate it when a writer jerks fans around (and I think that Joss does that to both B/A and B/S shippers).

I very, very rarely find a ship objectionable in and of itself. There are ships I don't get, ships I don't care about, ships I think are a terrible idea. But I don't care if other people think differently and love them and ship them. What gets my goat are the shippers who attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. I have no beef with B/A; it isn't my thing, but who cares? There is a subset of B/A shippers, on the other hand, who've shaped my fandom participation in a negative way. (To be clear, I think that all fan factions have that negative subset; it's not limited to any one ship b y any means.)

A ship is never the main reason I start watching/reading something. (Unless it's a story that is clearly billed as a romance, in which case, of course the ship is the main reason to read/watch.) It's very rarely the only reason I keep reading/watching. In fact, if a ship is the only reason I'm watching something, I think that's a big red warning sign that the story is pretty crappy, or has become so.

[rahirah]

(Oh, and I said back around "Retreat" that even if Spike rode in on a white spaceship horse and saved the day, the comics would still be a bad story. And he did pretty much exactly that, and... the comics were still a bad story.)

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Before BtVS, i never watched contemporary pop shows. Before BtVS online fandom, i didn't know what "shipping" is.

And, i still don't consume contemporary pop shows/books/othermedia.

So, for me, shipping isn't important. A story has to grip me before character(s) or subplots. Thinking about it, most stuff i read has neither characters nor plot...

But, since You ask from a pop culture framwork, and BtVS is really my only reference, i'll say that, interestingly enough, the Buffy'n'Spike relationship became important to me. And while i kid myself into believing that this has to do with the fascinating story depicted with those two characters, i have to admit that there is more to it (or less, depending on POV): I want those two to "make it work". It is strangely exciting to observe myelf in this regard and the (sublimated) workings in my mind. That somehow, two fictional characters and their "romance" seem important to me.

At the end of the day, though, i'm still in it for the stories and the way those stories are told.

(And rahirah said everything that is to say about the comics. Come to think of it - all the things she said speak to me. I think i should subscribe to her newsleter. Oh, i already have... *g* )

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

the "ship" [is] just icing, making the show/book/movie that much more tasty

I think that is my usual approach. I don't generally read or watch straight-up romances, but "getting and/or staying together" is an interesting part of most people's narratives.

That said, like liliaeth, I do tend to glom onto particular characters, and care deeply what happens to them. Usually, for me, these are very intelligent (perhaps cynical) characters that are underestimated by the larger social group for various reasons, and use their wits to level the playing field. Elizabeth Bennett, Becky Sharpe, Veronica Mars, Buffy Summers, Bugs Bunny, Zoe Graystone, and Spike are all examples of this. I generally want them to be happy, which for most people includes (but is not limited to) finding romantic love, but I'm fairly open on the question of partners.

It gets weird when the author manages to kill my affection for that character, though, which happens. In Vanity Fair I rooted for Becky Sharpe to prevail, right up until it became clear that she was a cruel and uncaring mother, who used her child as just another bargaining chip. She went on to abuse others who held less power than she had, to the point of destroying them, which is pretty much unforgivable to me. I was able to transfer my affections in that case, but it was a terrible blow.

In the case of BtVS, I mostly care what happens to Spike. If he were killed off, I would be hard-pressed to care as much about that world. I also care about Buffy, but the events of S8 have her teetering on the brink of my sympathy — not gone yet, but it could conceivably happen. (I know her actions in S6 ruined her character for some people, but I'm not one of them.) Without Spike around, an unsympathetic Buffy, and Giles dead, I'm not sure I could keep up my interest. Maybe Faith could fill the spot for me, but certainly none of the others could.

[blueteainfusion.livejournal.com]

I don't want to say that I'm not a shipper, but the list of my OTPs is pretty short. When I read/watch the story, I'm rather okay with most relationships, and by "okay" I mean that I don't have any strong feelings towards them. That's why if somebody asked me about the most hated ship, it would be very hard for me to answer - and I'm talking about canon ships, because I almost never divert from the canon. Non-canon ship seldom occur to me and that's way I have no way to hate them until someone points them out to me. As long as the story is gripping, characters possible to sympathize with, it's fine. Without that, the chances are I've already stopped following the story.

What happens if along the way I started caring for certain ship particularly hard? Well, then I will keep watching, preferably till the end, and continue to be delighted. Even if the story becomes ridiculous (as unfortunately sometimes such things happen) and the ship still holds my interest, I will still watch, but now with added bonus of fast-forwarding the boring parts and paying attention almost exclusively to it. Something like that happened initially with BtVS S7, when the last third felt very forced to me and I came to the sudden and horrible realization that the only thing that keeps me with the series is Spuffy. It took me quite a while to actually watch all the episodes thoroughly (and I grew to actually like the season, I still think its one of the weakest though). Till this day I'm not sure if Buffy would still be my overall favourite series if it didn't have Spuffy to help me endure some parts.

A different thing happened with my other favourite series from my youth, The Slayers (oh, the titles, haha - coincidence?). I adored Lina/Gourry ship, it was one of my earliest obsessions. However, even if L/G is still alive and well, I just couldn't watch the last to seasons - the story was awful and nonsensical, characters trashed and the whole thing just fell apart. Even them couldn't save the series for me - from now on I stick to fics.

So yeah, that's my story - still don't know which category of yours I fall into :) It depends of the series, I guess.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I'm usually not much of a shipper. When I do ship, it's always been a canon pairing; and I care much less about the pairing than the story. The relationships however can make the story deeper and more three dimensional; does that make me a frosting shipper?

And like other have said much better I tend to care about characters first and then care about their relationships. I cared about Buffy long before I cared about Spuffy; I remember thinking that she and Spike falling in love because of Willow's spell was funny, but a little bit horrifying. But I grew to love Spike in season 5, and his loving Buffy was part of that. Frankly I thought their messy, turbulent relationship made both of them more interesting.

I'm not a hard-core DW shipper, but I loved Rose Tyler (I know, I know, don't judge me!) from her first episode, and I do think that both the ninth and tenth doctors loved her. Honestly, If Ten had loved Martha I'd have been very disappointed in him. The fact that he loved Rose and mourned her made him feel more real to me, and I think it made for a more compelling story. YMMV!

[shapinglight]

I can only point to rahirah's comment. What she said.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

The story being told is always what's more important to me, rather than any shippy feeling I may have toward a relationship between characters, either pro or con. But that may be because it's the impossible relationships that I tend to care about the most.

On the other hand, I did stop watching Charmed because of what they did to the Phoebe/Cole 'ship and very nearly quit watching BtVS because of Seeing Red. I was just really disgusted with the storylines in both cases.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I have always been one to follow the story, and I'm really open to whatever story the creators/writers want to tell me....
but I have to confess that I'm usually anti-ship....
I wasn't in favor of Buffy & Angel being together (but I never worried that they would end up together, I always thought it was supposed to be the tragic hopeless love that had no chance)
but I also wasn't in favor of Buffy & Riley (he was being drugged & manipulated by the people whose orders he took... and then in S5 he was hanging around doing nothing but living vicariously through Buffy, bad to worse IMO)
AND I wasn't in favor of the Buffy/Spike ship except in the way it made Spike's character grow (I would never want Buffy to throw her future away on a dead thing no matter how immortal he may be... the future belongs to the living).

I also disliked the Doctor with Rose, and I thought that Martha needed to get over it (I was very glad that they did allow her to get over it and move on). He is an alien who for decades seemed to treat humans as pets, I cannot get into thinking of him as a reasonable love interest.

OTOH I shipped Kaylee and Simon (but I did think that their relationship would break down when they got married and he went back into medicine, because she would hurt him socially...). Actually I didn't ship them that hard, but I was glad they got together in 'Serenity'.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Since none of the ships that I have preference for when I read and write fanfiction will ever happen in canon, I just tend to ignore any longings for them in the actual show/book/what-have-you. The story overall is definitely more important. I don't believe I've every been in a fandom where I was strictly in it for a romantic pairing. Any pairing could be sold to me as realistic and in-character with the right plot. However, there are certain ships that I have come to very much dislike, either because of fandom or because of what's previous happened on the show (in BtVS's case), that the writer would have to put double the effort into making it believable or "happy" to me. Of course, I don't believe in happy endings, so the closest anyone could come is a "contented ending," which I'd be okay with.

I think I see shipping as a negative thing. I think that shipping makes some people blind to the characters that may hamper their ship happening. I've seen some Spuffy shippers ignore swaths of Angel's character development just to make Spike look better, and I've seen Bangels ignore Spike in the same way to make Angel out to be the only one Buffy should be with. In the Whedonverse, most of the characters are so dysfunctional that they really need to "get right" with themselves before they drag anyone else down in a relationship with them. I'd much rather see Buffy be able to overcome her issues and stand on her own than worry about who she's having relations with. To be fair, I do have my shipping preferences that I write, but I have a wider variety that I read. For example, I don't ship Spander. I don't understand it within the context of the show, BUT I have read Spander fanfic that sells the idea to me. And that's how I'd want any relationships in the show to be- if you can sell me the idea, with the characters in character and with a good plot, I'd believe and probably enjoy just about anything. Though, in an ensemble cast, I don't like the whole of the plot to be overtaken by just one couple or character; I do want the progression of events and development to be well-rounded and natural.

[lynnenne]

It kind of depends on the show, and the characters. I watched BSG primarily for the story, and the metaphor. I thought (and still think) it was the best television show I'd ever seen. What better, more important issue can there be but the survival of humanity? The central question of the show - Do we, as humans, deserve to survive as a species? - completely grabbed me and never let go. However, I admit that I would never have been so engaged in that series if it hadn't been for Laura Roslin. I didn't give a fig about Roslin/Adama, but I love Roslin beyond reason, and she was one of the reasons I found the show so compelling.

Likewise, I loved the metaphors and questions raised in the Buffyverse. I love the existential questioning, the darkness expressed in characters like Faith and Spike, and the heroism in characters like Buffy. Spike remains my favorite TV hero because of his dualism (light and dark, good and evil). But as far as my fanfic goes, that 'verse is all about Spike/Angel. Every fic I've ever written has something to say aobut good, evil, family, memory, history, regret and longing - but I've written it all in the context of that relationship. And I have no desire to write in in the context of any other relationship.

So - I guess maybe the characters, or their relationship to each other, are a lens through which I prefer to examine the bigger themes of the story. The way TV producers like to do.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think I'm a one-couple-shipper. I never shipped a couple before Spuffy and I don't think I'll find another couple worth shipping. I like many Jossverse couples, but it was Spuffy that got me involved in the online fandom, it was Spuffy that made me read and write fanfiction, and it's Spuffy that makes me still read the comics.

I don't know if I could enjoy BtVS were it not for Spuffy. I definitely enjoyed other storylines, but I never felt really passionate about them. Similarly, I watched Lost, BSG, Caprica - but I never had the urge to discuss them online of read fanfiction.

If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics? Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)?

I think both versions would turn me off comics. Happy couples are the biggest shipping poison.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

*Do you read a book series or watch a tv show/series solely for the romantic relationship ignoring the rest?
I've been known to but it rarely starts that way. Sometimes the ship is just the last thing left.

* Or is the "ship" just icing, making the show that much more tasty?
Hopefully this is the case.

* Or is the characters arcs and their story/overall plot what is important?
Preferably.

If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics?
Well, my view of the comics is pretty damn low, so I don't know that it could make me think any less of them. But, it would totally piss me off.

Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)?
Never gave it much thought because it absolutely will never, ever, ever happen except in some people's fanfic (and not even my own).

How would you view say Doctor Who - if Ten had fallen in love with Martha Jones instead of Rose Tyler?
I... hmm... I don't know. I was vaguely okay with the Ten/Rose ship. I was reluctant for Martha to become "all about Ten" but I doubt I would've been upset about it. Frankly, the only thing that's bothered me much in who is that Ten got to be a bit too much 'man pain' and I still completely freaking loathe was was done wiping Donna's memory. Who Ship-wise... I'm really flexible.

(ie. even if your favorite "ship" never comes to pass or doesn't work out - that's fine as long as it makes sense to the character's arc and is interesting and crunchy? The story comes before the ship?)
Depends. How well did they pull everything off?

Is the ship the reason you are watching or reading? OR is it secondary? Or does it depend on the story?
It depends. It really does.

And to what degree has shipping influenced your fanfic/meta writing?
To write fanfic? Yeah, shipping tends to factor heavily there. Writing meta? Shipping is completely non-essential for that.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Spuffy is really my first hardcore shipping deal. Even when I loved Beauty and the Beast, when the ship was over, I still loved the show.I never thought they would or should get Vincent and Catherine together as a normal couple so I enjoyed the ride.

I didn't give a rat's ass about the ships on Friends, I was there for the laughs.

Moonlighting just pissed me off. Having Maddie run off and marry someone else right after getting with David is what ruined the show, not getting them together as many seem to think.

I always enjoyed Buffy but when I fell for Spike and Spuffy my fandom went to a whole new level. It kind of consumed me in an admittedly unhealthy way.
The comic, particularly space fucking, really killed my fandom for a bit. I literally felt embarassed to be a fan. It's still dead for canon, I knew it was dead when Giles died and I really didn't care. The ridiculousness of space fucking made canon Buffy un-real for me. I have no idea how I would have felt if Bangel had happenned in a more normal way.

After a short break, I am back to reading and enjoying fic. Spuffy is my one tru pairing, although there are others I like to read, I don't enjoy Spangel as much anymore because of the comic, but that will probably wear off.

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

I'll watch a show or read a comic because it appeals to me. Hey, I kept reading my favorite comic even after they killed my absolute favorite character. But if I ship, it's icing on the cake. I loved Huddy on House but I'll still watch it. I shipped Buffy and Angel in the beginning and kept watching even after he left - which led to Spuffy, for which I'm eternally grateful. I do prefer a "happily ever after" for my ship, but I never get it. And in my fanfic, I prefer my ship over most anything.

[staringiscaring.livejournal.com]

I like a whole package. I can handle a unhappy ending (sometimes I love them in fact), but I won't take a boring plot or 2-d secondary characters even if the main pairing has chemistry to start a lab fire. Some characters can uplift a boring plot but only one pairing won't hook me.