Fandom Shipper Questions

[shadowkat]

Have some questions for shippers? (I'm trying not to answer or judge here - because I want to understand perspectives that are different from my own. I'm not sure I'm really a shipper, because while I care about relationships, I care about story more. Happily Ever After is not an ending I want or crave really...although it would be nice on occasion, since tragic endings get rather old.)

Which comes first and foremost or is the most important to you: Ship or Story? Characters Emotional Arc or Ship?

*Do you read a book series or watch a tv show/series solely for the romantic relationship ignoring the rest?
* Or is the "ship" just icing, making the show that much more tasty?
* Or is the characters arcs and their story/overall plot what is important? (ie. even if your favorite "ship" never comes to pass or doesn't work out - that's fine as long as it makes sense to the character's arc and is interesting and crunchy? The story comes before the ship?)

This question is the result of latest flirtation with a fan spoiler board for a urban fantasy novel - where I noticed the vast majority of posters were saying - while the book is good, I'm frustrated because I'm not sure about my ship? Or I'm so happy - my ship may happen! Or I threw the book across the room because it killed my ship? Or my dream is for the character to have her moonlight wedding...with T or I or A? The book in question is NOT a romance novel. So this begs the question - is a happily ever after romance necessary?

Is the ship the reason you are watching or reading? OR is it secondary? Or does it depend on the story? ie. For House and Sherlock - you only watch for House/Wilson or Sherlock/Watson - ignoring everything else. Or for Buffy, you only watched for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike? Yet for another show, say BSG, you didn't ship at all and watched for the entire story?

And to what degree has shipping influenced your fanfic/meta writing? Or for that matter, your abhorrence of shipping influenced your writing, involvement in fandom, and reactions to it?
If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics? Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)? How would you view say Doctor Who - if Ten had fallen in love with Martha Jones instead of Rose Tyler? And how does this influence your reactions to other's in fandom - do you find shipping a positive or negative or a bit of both kind of thing?

Comments

[liliaeth]

It depends on the fandom/show/book, whatever.

Most of the time what comes first for me is character. I have to hook on at least one character before I can bother to give a damn about the storyline.

I don't ship in all fandoms, and even in most of the ones I do, the shipping itself matters less than the characters.

It's only in some shows like Buffy, that shipping becomes more than just part of the show. And then it's mostly because my love of a character has been hit by how he or she treated another character.

By the end of s7, I just needed to believe that Buffy really loved Spike, just to keep on giving a damn about her, because of the way she'd treated him. It's stupid really, but I just wanted to believe that she'd grown as a person. And I guess that's why I can't bring myself to like any part of s8, because it didn't answer that question except in a way to destroy Buffy's character even more.

[rahirah]

The vast majority of the time, I'm not a shipper. I'm usually happy to accept whatever pairings or non-pairings the writer throws at me. I may like them or dislike them, but I don't care about them passionately in a way that can be divorced from my like or dislike of the story as a whole. For example, by the time "Friends" ended, I was thoroughly bored and disgusted with Ross/Rachel and wished that they would both be devoured by fire ants, but that was because the writers had milked the will-they-won't-they, makeup/breakup cycle until I just didn't care any longer and actively resented being dicked around. I don't care if they ended up together or apart, I was just sick of watching them.

By the end of "Farscape," on the other hand, I was cheering John and Aeryn on - but if they hadn't ended up together (with a baby, even) I wouldn't have felt cheated because their stories were so interesting.

The difference, I think, was that while both shows introduced obstacles to keep their main pairing apart and keep the fans agonizing, the obstacles that separated John and Aeryn (and might well have led to them breaking up for good) felt far more real and integral to the characters. I resent it when I think that a writer is trying to manipulate me in a cynical way. And I think that's one big reason I resent Joss in the one case where I am an active shipper. I can totally understand an author not wanting to do a particular ship because it doesn't fit the story they want to tell, or their conception of the characters. I've been in that position myself. I can understand getting irritated by shippers' persistence in the face of repeated assertions that it ain't gonna happen. But I hate it when an author is coy. I hate it when a writer jerks fans around (and I think that Joss does that to both B/A and B/S shippers).

I very, very rarely find a ship objectionable in and of itself. There are ships I don't get, ships I don't care about, ships I think are a terrible idea. But I don't care if other people think differently and love them and ship them. What gets my goat are the shippers who attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. I have no beef with B/A; it isn't my thing, but who cares? There is a subset of B/A shippers, on the other hand, who've shaped my fandom participation in a negative way. (To be clear, I think that all fan factions have that negative subset; it's not limited to any one ship b y any means.)

A ship is never the main reason I start watching/reading something. (Unless it's a story that is clearly billed as a romance, in which case, of course the ship is the main reason to read/watch.) It's very rarely the only reason I keep reading/watching. In fact, if a ship is the only reason I'm watching something, I think that's a big red warning sign that the story is pretty crappy, or has become so.

[rahirah]

(Oh, and I said back around "Retreat" that even if Spike rode in on a white spaceship horse and saved the day, the comics would still be a bad story. And he did pretty much exactly that, and... the comics were still a bad story.)

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Before BtVS, i never watched contemporary pop shows. Before BtVS online fandom, i didn't know what "shipping" is.

And, i still don't consume contemporary pop shows/books/othermedia.

So, for me, shipping isn't important. A story has to grip me before character(s) or subplots. Thinking about it, most stuff i read has neither characters nor plot...

But, since You ask from a pop culture framwork, and BtVS is really my only reference, i'll say that, interestingly enough, the Buffy'n'Spike relationship became important to me. And while i kid myself into believing that this has to do with the fascinating story depicted with those two characters, i have to admit that there is more to it (or less, depending on POV): I want those two to "make it work". It is strangely exciting to observe myelf in this regard and the (sublimated) workings in my mind. That somehow, two fictional characters and their "romance" seem important to me.

At the end of the day, though, i'm still in it for the stories and the way those stories are told.

(And rahirah said everything that is to say about the comics. Come to think of it - all the things she said speak to me. I think i should subscribe to her newsleter. Oh, i already have... *g* )

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

the "ship" [is] just icing, making the show/book/movie that much more tasty

I think that is my usual approach. I don't generally read or watch straight-up romances, but "getting and/or staying together" is an interesting part of most people's narratives.

That said, like liliaeth, I do tend to glom onto particular characters, and care deeply what happens to them. Usually, for me, these are very intelligent (perhaps cynical) characters that are underestimated by the larger social group for various reasons, and use their wits to level the playing field. Elizabeth Bennett, Becky Sharpe, Veronica Mars, Buffy Summers, Bugs Bunny, Zoe Graystone, and Spike are all examples of this. I generally want them to be happy, which for most people includes (but is not limited to) finding romantic love, but I'm fairly open on the question of partners.

It gets weird when the author manages to kill my affection for that character, though, which happens. In Vanity Fair I rooted for Becky Sharpe to prevail, right up until it became clear that she was a cruel and uncaring mother, who used her child as just another bargaining chip. She went on to abuse others who held less power than she had, to the point of destroying them, which is pretty much unforgivable to me. I was able to transfer my affections in that case, but it was a terrible blow.

In the case of BtVS, I mostly care what happens to Spike. If he were killed off, I would be hard-pressed to care as much about that world. I also care about Buffy, but the events of S8 have her teetering on the brink of my sympathy — not gone yet, but it could conceivably happen. (I know her actions in S6 ruined her character for some people, but I'm not one of them.) Without Spike around, an unsympathetic Buffy, and Giles dead, I'm not sure I could keep up my interest. Maybe Faith could fill the spot for me, but certainly none of the others could.

[blueteainfusion.livejournal.com]

I don't want to say that I'm not a shipper, but the list of my OTPs is pretty short. When I read/watch the story, I'm rather okay with most relationships, and by "okay" I mean that I don't have any strong feelings towards them. That's why if somebody asked me about the most hated ship, it would be very hard for me to answer - and I'm talking about canon ships, because I almost never divert from the canon. Non-canon ship seldom occur to me and that's way I have no way to hate them until someone points them out to me. As long as the story is gripping, characters possible to sympathize with, it's fine. Without that, the chances are I've already stopped following the story.

What happens if along the way I started caring for certain ship particularly hard? Well, then I will keep watching, preferably till the end, and continue to be delighted. Even if the story becomes ridiculous (as unfortunately sometimes such things happen) and the ship still holds my interest, I will still watch, but now with added bonus of fast-forwarding the boring parts and paying attention almost exclusively to it. Something like that happened initially with BtVS S7, when the last third felt very forced to me and I came to the sudden and horrible realization that the only thing that keeps me with the series is Spuffy. It took me quite a while to actually watch all the episodes thoroughly (and I grew to actually like the season, I still think its one of the weakest though). Till this day I'm not sure if Buffy would still be my overall favourite series if it didn't have Spuffy to help me endure some parts.

A different thing happened with my other favourite series from my youth, The Slayers (oh, the titles, haha - coincidence?). I adored Lina/Gourry ship, it was one of my earliest obsessions. However, even if L/G is still alive and well, I just couldn't watch the last to seasons - the story was awful and nonsensical, characters trashed and the whole thing just fell apart. Even them couldn't save the series for me - from now on I stick to fics.

So yeah, that's my story - still don't know which category of yours I fall into :) It depends of the series, I guess.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I'm usually not much of a shipper. When I do ship, it's always been a canon pairing; and I care much less about the pairing than the story. The relationships however can make the story deeper and more three dimensional; does that make me a frosting shipper?

And like other have said much better I tend to care about characters first and then care about their relationships. I cared about Buffy long before I cared about Spuffy; I remember thinking that she and Spike falling in love because of Willow's spell was funny, but a little bit horrifying. But I grew to love Spike in season 5, and his loving Buffy was part of that. Frankly I thought their messy, turbulent relationship made both of them more interesting.

I'm not a hard-core DW shipper, but I loved Rose Tyler (I know, I know, don't judge me!) from her first episode, and I do think that both the ninth and tenth doctors loved her. Honestly, If Ten had loved Martha I'd have been very disappointed in him. The fact that he loved Rose and mourned her made him feel more real to me, and I think it made for a more compelling story. YMMV!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

So much "Word" re: Becky Sharpe! It's possible I may reread that one one of these days. I was so upset with how it all came out, but I was also pretty young when I read it. I wonder if I'd have a different reaction 20 years later?

[shapinglight]

I can only point to rahirah's comment. What she said.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

The story being told is always what's more important to me, rather than any shippy feeling I may have toward a relationship between characters, either pro or con. But that may be because it's the impossible relationships that I tend to care about the most.

On the other hand, I did stop watching Charmed because of what they did to the Phoebe/Cole 'ship and very nearly quit watching BtVS because of Seeing Red. I was just really disgusted with the storylines in both cases.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I have always been one to follow the story, and I'm really open to whatever story the creators/writers want to tell me....
but I have to confess that I'm usually anti-ship....
I wasn't in favor of Buffy & Angel being together (but I never worried that they would end up together, I always thought it was supposed to be the tragic hopeless love that had no chance)
but I also wasn't in favor of Buffy & Riley (he was being drugged & manipulated by the people whose orders he took... and then in S5 he was hanging around doing nothing but living vicariously through Buffy, bad to worse IMO)
AND I wasn't in favor of the Buffy/Spike ship except in the way it made Spike's character grow (I would never want Buffy to throw her future away on a dead thing no matter how immortal he may be... the future belongs to the living).

I also disliked the Doctor with Rose, and I thought that Martha needed to get over it (I was very glad that they did allow her to get over it and move on). He is an alien who for decades seemed to treat humans as pets, I cannot get into thinking of him as a reasonable love interest.

OTOH I shipped Kaylee and Simon (but I did think that their relationship would break down when they got married and he went back into medicine, because she would hurt him socially...). Actually I didn't ship them that hard, but I was glad they got together in 'Serenity'.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Finally, a perspective that is a bit different from mine. Thank you!!!

Oddly your anti-ship reasons are the same reasons I've read on fan discussion boards for ships. This need/desire for the characters to live happy lives or have a happily ever after.

To clarify?

Do you put the character's happily ever after over the story?
(example - RTD put Rose with the clone/human version of Doctor Who 10 - does that bother you because it means Rose can't be happy with the Doctor? Or say, Whedon kills off Tara or WASH - taking away Willow/Zoe's true love, does that bother you because Willow/Zoe can't be happy?)

Or do you care more about the story, and the character's having a "happy ending" doesn't matter?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was thoroughly bored and disgusted with Ross/Rachel and wished that they would both be devoured by fire ants, but that was because the writers had milked the will-they-won't-they, makeup/breakup cycle until I just didn't care any longer and actively resented being dicked around

A television trope that has quickly become an annoying cliche that everyone from Whedon to well the creators of Castle have done to death.

It's lazy writing. One of the things I adored most about Ben Browder's commentaries on Farscape - was he kept complaining about this particular trope. The need to keep the two leads apart because the writers can't figure out how to make them interesting and keep the sexual tension up after they sleep together and continue in a relationship. Whedon used to say Sam and Diane sleeping together ruined Cheers (actually it didn't, Cheers changed and evolved after it). As Browder stated - it's not realistic. Come on - of course Crichton and Aeryn did it.
It's contrived suspense.

Rachel/Ross is a perfect example of how it can ruine a pairing and a show - when they continue with it past a certain point.

The difference, I think, was that while both shows introduced obstacles to keep their main pairing apart and keep the fans agonizing, the obstacles that separated John and Aeryn (and might well have led to them breaking up for good) felt far more real and integral to the characters.

An example of what good writing can do. Aeryn/John managed to maintain sexual tension regardless of whether they slept together. And what kept them apart was understandable. It made sense she wouldn't hop into John's double's arms after "her" John died. And that he would be slow to trust her again, after she returned with the living death illness, having left him, pregnant. That worked and did not feel "contrived".

And I think that's one big reason I resent Joss in the one case where I am an active shipper. I can totally understand an author not wanting to do a particular ship because it doesn't fit the story they want to tell, or their conception of the characters. I've been in that position myself. I can understand getting irritated by shippers' persistence in the face of repeated assertions that it ain't gonna happen. But I hate it when an author is coy. I hate it when a writer jerks fans around (and I think that Joss does that to both B/A and B/S shippers).

Agreed, on all of the above. I think Whedon deliberately did that and laughed his head off at people in the process. After reading various interviews, commentaries, and the actual work - I've finally come to the conclusion that Whedon is a sadistic jerk when it comes to his professional career as tv writer, director, etc. (No clue what he is like outside of work. My guess is - he's a by-product of his environment. The entertainment industry is a nasty business. From all reports Whedon started out nice enough, the business turned into an asshat.)

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Since none of the ships that I have preference for when I read and write fanfiction will ever happen in canon, I just tend to ignore any longings for them in the actual show/book/what-have-you. The story overall is definitely more important. I don't believe I've every been in a fandom where I was strictly in it for a romantic pairing. Any pairing could be sold to me as realistic and in-character with the right plot. However, there are certain ships that I have come to very much dislike, either because of fandom or because of what's previous happened on the show (in BtVS's case), that the writer would have to put double the effort into making it believable or "happy" to me. Of course, I don't believe in happy endings, so the closest anyone could come is a "contented ending," which I'd be okay with.

I think I see shipping as a negative thing. I think that shipping makes some people blind to the characters that may hamper their ship happening. I've seen some Spuffy shippers ignore swaths of Angel's character development just to make Spike look better, and I've seen Bangels ignore Spike in the same way to make Angel out to be the only one Buffy should be with. In the Whedonverse, most of the characters are so dysfunctional that they really need to "get right" with themselves before they drag anyone else down in a relationship with them. I'd much rather see Buffy be able to overcome her issues and stand on her own than worry about who she's having relations with. To be fair, I do have my shipping preferences that I write, but I have a wider variety that I read. For example, I don't ship Spander. I don't understand it within the context of the show, BUT I have read Spander fanfic that sells the idea to me. And that's how I'd want any relationships in the show to be- if you can sell me the idea, with the characters in character and with a good plot, I'd believe and probably enjoy just about anything. Though, in an ensemble cast, I don't like the whole of the plot to be overtaken by just one couple or character; I do want the progression of events and development to be well-rounded and natural.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

See I don't believe in happy endings for anyone at all ever... seriously (didn't happen for me, who do you know who got any kind of happily ever after?). Of course I don't believe in 'endings' except death... which doesn't quality as happy really, does it?

So what I'm saying is: I think if the story teller pretends they've given us a happy ending, then I think the story teller is a liar (or stupid).

I have no problem with killing characters because I've lost so many people my own self that it just makes sense that my protagonist will suffer loses too.... Although I do think there is something a little cheap and convenient about getting Tara and Willow back together for one final night before killing Tara off.

Wash being killed so suddenly was way more real and intense, for me.... After he died I seriously thought a lot of my favorite characters might end up dying, it really made the rest of the movie a nail bitter.

One thing that I really want to say is that I'm not favor of my heroine being such a ninny that she will blindly pursue an obviously doomed love, and I think it is even worse if she wastes the rest of her life mooning over a past love... I think that people should keep moving forward (like sharks).

I didn't hate Rose ending up with fake Doctor 10/human hybrid (it was weird and a little too convenient, but it was interesting...), however I did wonder if Rose really did settle for him as second best. But then most of the married women I know settled, to some extent or another.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

BTW I didn't mean that to sound angry and discontented (if it came off that way)...
I do think people can be happy, if they can be content with their life... I'm just saying that I don't think that a relationship (any relationship) is what makes you happy. You are either someone who learns to have inner contentment or you aren't, the relationships don't fix anything.

And even the happiest most peaceful person must have a future full of ups and downs, nobody gets a perfectly 'happy ending'....

so I hope that explains my position better... lol

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Thackeray really did a bait 'n' switch in that book. The first half (or almost) is biting social commentary about the way that a moribund class-based society is blind to the talents of outsiders, then turns into an argument for that same class structure being somehow correct and justifiable. At least, that's one way of looking at it. It could be that he is making a moral argument throughout that the weak shall inherit the earth, IDEK.

And yes, I think that is what I most objected to about S8. We start out with a rip-roaring tale of girl power gone (mostly) right, and end up being told that (in the simplest possible terms) girls are dumb*. It's icky, and it's not the story I signed up for.

*Also: emotional, slaves to their hormones, and not good leaders — to the point of being a danger to their devoted fathers. Or something. Bleah.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Have to say, more or less right there with you. Buffy and Spike could have been riding off into the sunset, kissing, and I'd still have despised the comics.

The comics are actually a good example of how a romantic/sexual relationship that is poorly executed can destroy a story and take a reader out of the story to such an extent that they no longer take it seriously or the writers seriously.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

BTW I didn't mean that to sound angry and discontented (if it came off that way)...

Not at all.

Thanks for the clarification, because...hmmm, I think I misinterpreted your first post. I thought you were for happy endings above the story. Turns out to be the exact opposite.
(My take is somewhat similar - in that the happy ending must be earned, and it doesn't necessarily need to be a romantic one to be happy. For me, story first and foremost. Also the problem with happily ever after is well, life doesn't end quite like that. It's not that it's happy, it's just not the romantic fairy tale ending = ie. happily ever after.)

Example of what I'm discussing here - a while back taliamamma told me that fans of Dorothy Dunnett's Chronicles of Lymond - were furious with Dunnett and many threw the book across the room and stopped reading because they thought she'd killed off her lead character just before he was able to fall into the arms of his beloved and be "happy". (This perplexed me - for two reasons, one - all they had to do was turn the page and they'd have learned that he didn't die and it was a mislead. I mean there was at least five - ten pages left in the book. And two - even if she did? So what. Doesn't make the story any less satisfying, tragic yes, but the weight is still there.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Interesting description of Vanity Fair - a book I haven't read. Now somewhat curious about.

And yes, I think that is what I most objected to about S8. We start out with a rip-roaring tale of girl power gone (mostly) right, and end up being told that (in the simplest possible terms) girls are dumb*. It's icky, and it's not the story I signed up for.

Somewhat similar issues with the comics. (sigh, I promised myself not to comment on the comics any more...)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Actually your perspective on shipping is fairly similar to mine. Which is, with few exceptions, that you tend to be more about story and less about the ship. In short - the ship is icing on the cake.

As long as the story is gripping, characters possible to sympathize with, it's fine. Without that, the chances are I've already stopped following the story.

Agreed. I'm the same way.

The Slayers??

That's a series I've never heard of. Was it on tv? If so where?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Had similar issues with Charmed.

Understand the interest in impossible relationships - I find them intriguing, because the writer is more challenged and has to work harder to make them convincing and plausible. Also they often, if executed well, tell us more about all the characters involved.
Plus let's face it - we all at some point in our lives find ourselves in an impossible relationship (not always a romantic one) that just can't work. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this response - it clarifies a perspective that I've been trying to wrap my head around.

The relationship can make the characters feel more real? Give them more dimension? Or maybe the right word is resonance - make you care about them more? Spike and Buffy being in love - pulled you in, gave Spike a resonance and something that spoke to you, more than say, Spike not caring about her or just wanting to kill her. The idea of the "villain" falling hopelessly and madly in love with the heroine or his "target" can be madly appealing. (It's certainly one of my kinks). And to have the heroine...fall for the villian after this happens, over time, it has an ironic resonance to it. A feeling of hope, almost? As if hate can be squashed by love.

Rose and Ten - Rose in some respects makes Ten more human and explores his capacity for human emotion. (Although, I admittedly preferred Rose and Nine.) So yes, I can see why that ship worked for you.

It's not the happy ending so much as it is...adding a new dimension to the mix?

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I must not have been explaining myself very well, because what I meant was that I'm always story first, but I end up despising the story (and storyteller) if the romance (and the lame happy ending) ends up being the be all and end all (like in Twilight).

So I'm never ship/happy ending first.... I expect a lot more than that if I'm going to enjoy the story.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

It's not the happy ending so much as it is...adding a new dimension to the mix?

If I wanted a happy ending I'm in the wrong fandom(s)! Sorry, I just watched the last episode of Being Human and am still recovering.

I like the term "resonance". And Yes, Spike loving Buffy gave me something that spoke to me and pulled my into caring about his character. I think most of us can relate to that. I was a entirely new to the Doctor Whoniverse when I watched Rose, but Nine clearly cared about Rose and that gave me an "in" to his character. In both cases that love made both of them seem much more three-dimensional.

[lynnenne]

It kind of depends on the show, and the characters. I watched BSG primarily for the story, and the metaphor. I thought (and still think) it was the best television show I'd ever seen. What better, more important issue can there be but the survival of humanity? The central question of the show - Do we, as humans, deserve to survive as a species? - completely grabbed me and never let go. However, I admit that I would never have been so engaged in that series if it hadn't been for Laura Roslin. I didn't give a fig about Roslin/Adama, but I love Roslin beyond reason, and she was one of the reasons I found the show so compelling.

Likewise, I loved the metaphors and questions raised in the Buffyverse. I love the existential questioning, the darkness expressed in characters like Faith and Spike, and the heroism in characters like Buffy. Spike remains my favorite TV hero because of his dualism (light and dark, good and evil). But as far as my fanfic goes, that 'verse is all about Spike/Angel. Every fic I've ever written has something to say aobut good, evil, family, memory, history, regret and longing - but I've written it all in the context of that relationship. And I have no desire to write in in the context of any other relationship.

So - I guess maybe the characters, or their relationship to each other, are a lens through which I prefer to examine the bigger themes of the story. The way TV producers like to do.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think I'm a one-couple-shipper. I never shipped a couple before Spuffy and I don't think I'll find another couple worth shipping. I like many Jossverse couples, but it was Spuffy that got me involved in the online fandom, it was Spuffy that made me read and write fanfiction, and it's Spuffy that makes me still read the comics.

I don't know if I could enjoy BtVS were it not for Spuffy. I definitely enjoyed other storylines, but I never felt really passionate about them. Similarly, I watched Lost, BSG, Caprica - but I never had the urge to discuss them online of read fanfiction.

If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics? Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)?

I think both versions would turn me off comics. Happy couples are the biggest shipping poison.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

I agree. A lot of romance novelists fall into the trap of doing the fairy tale happily ever after - but it's not earned, so falls flat or leaves an odd after-taste. (TWilight is a romance, so falls into that trap.)

Endings are VERY hard to do well. The best are somewhat open-ended, yet satisfying at the same time.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

*Do you read a book series or watch a tv show/series solely for the romantic relationship ignoring the rest?
I've been known to but it rarely starts that way. Sometimes the ship is just the last thing left.

* Or is the "ship" just icing, making the show that much more tasty?
Hopefully this is the case.

* Or is the characters arcs and their story/overall plot what is important?
Preferably.

If Whedon, for example, had killed Spike off in the comics and had Buffy and Angel become a full-time heroic couple - would that have influenced how you viewed the comics?
Well, my view of the comics is pretty damn low, so I don't know that it could make me think any less of them. But, it would totally piss me off.

Or what if it was the opposite, if Angel died or was exiled, and Buffy and Spike rode off into the proverbial moonlight (sunlight is a bit hard on vampires)?
Never gave it much thought because it absolutely will never, ever, ever happen except in some people's fanfic (and not even my own).

How would you view say Doctor Who - if Ten had fallen in love with Martha Jones instead of Rose Tyler?
I... hmm... I don't know. I was vaguely okay with the Ten/Rose ship. I was reluctant for Martha to become "all about Ten" but I doubt I would've been upset about it. Frankly, the only thing that's bothered me much in who is that Ten got to be a bit too much 'man pain' and I still completely freaking loathe was was done wiping Donna's memory. Who Ship-wise... I'm really flexible.

(ie. even if your favorite "ship" never comes to pass or doesn't work out - that's fine as long as it makes sense to the character's arc and is interesting and crunchy? The story comes before the ship?)
Depends. How well did they pull everything off?

Is the ship the reason you are watching or reading? OR is it secondary? Or does it depend on the story?
It depends. It really does.

And to what degree has shipping influenced your fanfic/meta writing?
To write fanfic? Yeah, shipping tends to factor heavily there. Writing meta? Shipping is completely non-essential for that.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Endings are VERY hard to do well. The best are somewhat open-ended, yet satisfying at the same time.

Like "Chosen"...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I am always intrigued when people name John/Aeryn as an example of a ship done well, because for me, there was an entire season where it really wasn't which nearly turned me off Farscape for good, and where the writers were guilty of every mistake they had until then avoided - season 4. The angst keeping John and Aeryn apart in s4 is entirely artificial, as opposed to their previous issues. And it's solved in incredibly lazy ways. ZOMG John takes drugs in order not to love Aeryn anymore. ZOMG not really, he only faked it and his distance so Scorpius would not guess Aeryn means more than the world to him. (Because you know, nothing could have POSSIBLY led Scorpius to the conclusion that John loves Aeryn otherwise. (Seriously, the scene where Aeryn and John make up and he gives her that explanation has to be one of the most insulting to viewer's intelligence in television.) He's been the sole person in the universe who didn't notice.) ZOMG Aeryn asks John to accept Scorpius on Moya! What (other than getting sick) happened to her in the months they've been apart? Why, we find out later that season, in the episode which should have been the Aeryn equivalent of "Won't get fooled again" but wasn't: she has come to the breathtaking concusion... that John is the only man she really loved. No really. She LOOOOOOVES him. We would never have guessed that before the episode "The Prayer".
Aeryn until s4 had other relationships that were part of her storyarc - with Pilot, with Talyn, with Craish, her mother. S4 Aeryn? Solely lives and dies for John. Oh, and everyone else in the ensemble? Has stopped getting stories of their own, too. They only exist as a Greek chorus to the John/Aeryn melodrama. Exemplified in the s4 cliffhanger ending.
...this is why I am so glad we got the Peacekeeper Wars. It wasn't perfect, but it was Farscape back to form again and also reconciled me to John/Aeryn by presenting them as a functional couple again instead of just the type of shippery black hole in a show I can't stand.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Spuffy is really my first hardcore shipping deal. Even when I loved Beauty and the Beast, when the ship was over, I still loved the show.I never thought they would or should get Vincent and Catherine together as a normal couple so I enjoyed the ride.

I didn't give a rat's ass about the ships on Friends, I was there for the laughs.

Moonlighting just pissed me off. Having Maddie run off and marry someone else right after getting with David is what ruined the show, not getting them together as many seem to think.

I always enjoyed Buffy but when I fell for Spike and Spuffy my fandom went to a whole new level. It kind of consumed me in an admittedly unhealthy way.
The comic, particularly space fucking, really killed my fandom for a bit. I literally felt embarassed to be a fan. It's still dead for canon, I knew it was dead when Giles died and I really didn't care. The ridiculousness of space fucking made canon Buffy un-real for me. I have no idea how I would have felt if Bangel had happenned in a more normal way.

After a short break, I am back to reading and enjoying fic. Spuffy is my one tru pairing, although there are others I like to read, I don't enjoy Spangel as much anymore because of the comic, but that will probably wear off.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think it's really in how you interpret that last season to be honest. And I'm admittedly of two minds about it. Since I'm not sure the plotting totally works and that arachnid episode is my least favorite episode next to Jeremiah Crichton.

There's two interpretations that I've read to date, yours and oursin who brought a completely different view to my attention about a year or so ago.
At least I think it was oursin.

The other view - states looks at John and Aeryn's relationship through the lense of post-traumatic stress disorder or how people react to a sustained amount of violence, torture and the fear of it over a lengthy period of time.

For example: John's use of the drug - he starts using it long before Aeryn returns, and in a situation that has zip to do with Aeryn. It's to focus, to override Graceila's unique brand of torture. Then slowly, he starts using it more and more - to focus, to not allow his emotions/feelings for Aeryn to rule him. At the end of Dog With Two Bones - John realized he had to decide between Aeryn and returning to Earth (wormholes). He chooses Aeryn, but she leaves and doesn't allow him to come with her. So at the start of S4 he decides to return to Earth - to figure out the wormhole technology no matter what. But his feelings for Aeryn, his emotions keep getting in his way.

Aeryn and John in effect change places, Aeryn had shut herself from all emotion, she stopped feeling. And even tells John at the start of S3, that feeling love or passion for a crew member puts them at a disadvantage. It cost Zahaan her life. Aeryn learns this is not true or isn't working for her. John, OTOH,
decides that shutting off his emotions, letting the "scientist" take over, and focusing solely on wormholes is the answer. He believes his pursuit of Aeryn is a weakness.

In the Arachnid episode (can't remember the name of it but it's the one in which he reveals the reason he's been using the drugs, or at least I think it is) - John says that he can't let anyone know how much he cares about Aeryn or the baby because they'll use Aeryn and the baby against him. (This would include Scorpius, but I think it is pretty much everyone - since he takes the drug on Earth as well.) Keep in mind - John has seen Aeryn die because of him. And Scorpius used Aeryn's condition - the living death - to get on Moya. Also, John got captured by Scorpius in the first place because of Aeryn. From John's perspective - Aeryn is his achillees heel. Hence the drugs.

That actually works for me.

Could it have been written better? Definitely. But the show was written so fast, that I give them a pass. (They were apparently filming and writing season 4 and 5 back to back - so had a very quick filming schedule.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

To clarify: Even though S5 never aired, they'd planned on filming it right after the last episode of S4 within the same year. Farscape had one of the fastest filming schedules out there - which amazes me. The first season they actually filmed two episodes at once, sometimes three at once - but stopped when they realized it was killing their actors and crew - both Claudia Black and Anthony Simuco got injured.

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

I'll watch a show or read a comic because it appeals to me. Hey, I kept reading my favorite comic even after they killed my absolute favorite character. But if I ship, it's icing on the cake. I loved Huddy on House but I'll still watch it. I shipped Buffy and Angel in the beginning and kept watching even after he left - which led to Spuffy, for which I'm eternally grateful. I do prefer a "happily ever after" for my ship, but I never get it. And in my fanfic, I prefer my ship over most anything.

[staringiscaring.livejournal.com]

I like a whole package. I can handle a unhappy ending (sometimes I love them in fact), but I won't take a boring plot or 2-d secondary characters even if the main pairing has chemistry to start a lab fire. Some characters can uplift a boring plot but only one pairing won't hook me.