Game of Thrones - Raines of Castamere...

[shadowkat]

Eh believe it or not, this scene was far gorier in the books. Sort of glad they didn't go there.

But in both cases it upset me, because of Arya mostly...and the fact that Robb and Catlynn had finally grown on me. It also deadened me to anything that could happen afterwards.

Weird that his wife was there and pregnant. She wasn't in the books. But I now know why - to explain why Robb is rendered defenseless and doesn't run.

Forgot the Blackfish was there...thought he wasn't. And they didn't do the scene with Edmund Tully in the bath with his new wife, who warns him when the song begins. Did it here - with Catelynn recognizing the song and seeing Lord Bolton's expression and the closing of the gates.

Oh well at least Theon wasn't on. But I missed the Lannisters quite a bit. Even though it's made clear by Lord Bolton that Tywin Lannister was behind it - when he says, "The Lannisters send their regards" - when he stabs Robb through the back.



ETA:..there be spoilage in the comments thread.

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I agree. Because Whedon's world is very karmic. People do pay for doing bad things. As fans have complained incessantly over the years. It's really not a world where shit happens. Sure Buffy may see it that way, but when you drift outside of her narrowed point of view, it's not. There's a deeper causal relationship at work. You can't write a story without a causal relationship - that's plot, after all. Even stories without plot - have causal relationships. If I eat this, I get heartburn, if I eat that, I don't. Do this = that. So no randomness to events. Just our inability to see that they aren't random, because we can't see past our incredibly limited perspective, doesn't mean that they are random.

The difference may well lie within how they choose to tell their stories and how they think. Whedon tends to limit his point of view to one character, and loves protagonist privilege - there's always a hero in his tales. He subscribes to the idea of the hero saves the day, or the troubled heroes journey.

GRRM doesn't. While Whedon was studying the Civil War, Martin was studying the War of the Roses - where the issues are a bit murkier and the violence more intense. Also GRRM is a stragetist - he enjoys re-enacting medieval battles with action figures in his basement. He loves Football - for it's strategy, I suspect. And sees how small events can causally lead to greater ones.

Both agree that vengeance does not solve anything. But both have karmic universes - where actions result in consequences, some good, some not so good. In some respects I think Whedon's verse is more cathartically karmic than GRRM's. Angelus got it. All the bad guys do.
The villains do not win in Whedon's verse. They often win in Martin's, and unlike Whedon's verse, it is often not that clear who is who.
GRRM's verse is shade grayer than Whedon's and a shade more adult in some respects. Sex for example does not equal pain in GRRM's verse.
And War is never a good thing, while Whedon's verse still somewhat niavely believes that there can be a victor in WAR, that WAR is a good idea (see Season 7 Chosen, as an example). GRRM is not quite that niave, but again he's been studying it in greater detail.

I may have enjoyed Whedon's verse more, I did, and I certainly like his dialogue better - Whedon's sense of humor suits me, but I have to admit that in some respects GRRM's plotting works better as does his narrative.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

The distinction I'd make is this: in the cases of Jenny and Tara, there's a causal chain of events which we can connect to the death. However, I wouldn't say that the death was "deserved" or "karmic" in the sense that "God's justice has been meted out -- you paid for your mistakes". Tara didn't pay for anything, even if she was, arguably, the price Willow paid. And while Jenny did do wrong in spying on Buffy, her death couldn't be seen as some sort of "karmic payback" for that because it's too out of proportion.

In the case of Robb and Catelyn, not only did their mistakes lead causally to the RW, but those mistakes were at least arguably moral wrongs (e.g., seizing Tyrion) or political disasters (e.g., marrying Jeyne, executing Karstark).

As I see it, both Martin and Whedon follow a causal chain, but only in Martin do I get a sense that the death achieved some kind of karmic justice.

Joyce's case is, of course, entirely random and fits my theory better than Jenny or Tara, so I argued the more difficult part.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

True. But GRRM is doing a story about war in a world with dragons, zombies, and direwolves,as opposed to Whedon who is doing a story about the horrors of a high school in a world with vampires. There is that. ;)

I guess I'm pointing out to all of us, myself included, that we are to a degree comparing an apple to a pear.

That said...Tara and Jenny both knew they were playing with fire in a way. They live in a dangerous world. Tara went back to the Summers house to be with Willow - fully knowing the Trioka were after Buffy (they'd just attacked her) and people are gunning for them constantly, and Jenny decided to give Angel back his soul and stayed, alone, in the high school, at night to work on doing it - a bit dumb.

It's not karmic per se, but it is causal. Just as the fact that she never thought to warn Buffy about Angel's curse and how it might be broken - which is why Buffy is understandably pissed with her.

And Joyce's death - may well be genetic or have to do with environmental issues or a doctor's mistake...I know my Aunt died of the same thing - that's why that episode kills me every time I see it. I know Whedon meant it to be random, but since he delibertally planned it - to further Buffy's arc, not so much.