Game of Thrones - Raines of Castamere...

[shadowkat]

Eh believe it or not, this scene was far gorier in the books. Sort of glad they didn't go there.

But in both cases it upset me, because of Arya mostly...and the fact that Robb and Catlynn had finally grown on me. It also deadened me to anything that could happen afterwards.

Weird that his wife was there and pregnant. She wasn't in the books. But I now know why - to explain why Robb is rendered defenseless and doesn't run.

Forgot the Blackfish was there...thought he wasn't. And they didn't do the scene with Edmund Tully in the bath with his new wife, who warns him when the song begins. Did it here - with Catelynn recognizing the song and seeing Lord Bolton's expression and the closing of the gates.

Oh well at least Theon wasn't on. But I missed the Lannisters quite a bit. Even though it's made clear by Lord Bolton that Tywin Lannister was behind it - when he says, "The Lannisters send their regards" - when he stabs Robb through the back.



ETA:..there be spoilage in the comments thread.

Comments

[sophist.livejournal.com]

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR GOT

I was REALLY upset in the book when the axe hit Arya. I might have stopped reading but I decided she couldn't really be dead.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I was glad too that they handled the Red Wedding that way. Made the final moment so much more impressive, too.

Since I knew mainly what was coming, my first reaction when I heard "The Rains of Castamere" was that it's a much slower version of the tune they use for "The Bear, The Bear, and the Maiden Fair." Or maybe that's my imagination?

Also, the scene where Arya sees them kill Robb's wolf may well have been in the book--just didn't remember it. So sad.

I've always wondered if those wolves who are killed are going to return as some kind of creature in the final book.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

That scene wasn't in the books.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Thanks. A hard scene to watch.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I don't have HBO, so I have to depend on the DVDs, but I imagine it was. When I read the books, I sensed that the whole setup was a trap, but didn't realize how far it would go.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, GRRM doesn't let you off easy. I suspect that Jon Snow, Arya, Bran, and Dani will survive to the last book at least, but he could kill them off in the next one, too.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

The Slate discussion of this episode (http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/tv_club/features/2013/game_of_thrones/week_9/red_wedding_the_freys_and_the_starks_meet_at_the_twins.html) makes good points about the difference with the book, esp. re Catelyn.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Forgot the Blackfish was there...thought he wasn't.

he wasn't - he stayed at Riverrun with Robb's wife. He was sort of an amalgamation of one of the Northern lords and the book Blackfish in this, since Robb was rather bereft of supporters on the show (Karstark and Bolton being the only named ones.)

And they didn't do the scene with Edmund Tully in the bath with his new wife, who warns him when the song begins. Did it here - with Catelynn recognizing the song and seeing Lord Bolton's expression and the closing of the gates.

Roslin Frey doesn't warn Edmure at all - she cries through the entire wedding, which Catelyn (whose POV is the only one through which we see the wedding inside; we get Arya for the outside the room POV) thinks is because she's just nervous as a new bride, but in fact, it's because she knows what's coming. But she never says a word to Edmure! It is Catelyn who recognizes when the musicians switch to the "Rains of Castamere" in the books as well; the Freys use it as a signal to start their men outside killing the Stark forces.

It was all a bit different from the books (Catelyn's sense of oppressive dread is very strong in the book and here she was relaxed and smiling) but it worked really well, IMO.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Since I knew mainly what was coming, my first reaction when I heard "The Rains of Castamere" was that it's a much slower version of the tune they use for "The Bear, The Bear, and the Maiden Fair." Or maybe that's my imagination?

I think the confusion is that they used the instrumental version of "The Rains of Castamere" to play over the scene of Jaime rescuing Brienne in the episode called "The Bear and the Maiden Fair." The Bolton soldiers sang "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" in the episode where Jaime loses his hand (and then they did a rocking out version of it over the end credits) and also sang it to Brienne in the bearpit, but as soon as Jaime delivers his "sorry about the sapphires" line to Locke, they switched to the "Rains of Castamere" instrumental version as the Lannisters' song of triumph :D Hope that helps!!

Also, the scene where Arya sees them kill Robb's wolf may well have been in the book--just didn't remember it. So sad.

In the book, Arya and Sandor are actually attacked by Frey soldiers and Sandor kills some of them with Arya helping. Grey Wind is freed by Robb's squire (who is Jeyne Westerling's brother) and he does some damage to the Freys/Boltons before they bring him down (and kill Jeyne's brother as well) but we don't see it as it's happening, just hear about it afterwards.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Nice. Thanks for the link.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I'm not much of a musician, but I was actually thinking of the "The Bear" as sung in the credits. Probably way off, if I actually heard them together.

And thanks! Now that you remind me, I do remember how Arya;s and Grey Wind's parts went down.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well that was fun... actually I kind of regretted that I had read the books, it would have been really mind blowing to have seen this episode without knowing what was going to happen! As I recall I was totally gobsmacked when I did read that chapter, and had to start over and reread the chapter. LOL

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Feel more or less the same way. I sort of wish I hadn't read the books. In some respects I prefer how the TV series is handling things - it's more understated and less over-the-top.

I was so relieved that we didn't have to watch Catelynn claw her skin off down to the bone, kill "Jinglebell" - the Jester who sings The Rains of Castamare - it's actually sung in the book - because we get the words, I think. Cersei explains the song in the previous episode, so I guess it's not necessary to have the words here - the violin's are more eerie anyhow. OR watch Robb get beheaded along with the entire company. They didn't show the Frey's sewing Robb's Wolf's head onto his body, the Lannister's and Queen of Thorns just talk about it in the book. Hoping they don't show it in the series...doesn't appear they will.

I remember checking the appendix for some reason or other and being bewildered by the mention of Robb and Catelyn both dying at the Red Wedding. Okay, I thought, what the heck?

Then I read it and ...the most painful bit of it, is well the same thing that was incredibly painful about Ned Stark's death - you think the writer is going to reunite Ned with Jon Snow at the Wall...but nooo, and in this one, you are lead to believe Arya is finally going to reunited with her mother and brother, you may even be writing fanfic in your head about the reunion...but noooo...

When the Red Wedding happened, I still had hope. So while I knew Catelynn and Robb would die, I figured Ayra may get reunited with them first - eh no. (Actually the whole Ayra section in Storm is highly frustrating - poor kid can't seem to reunite with anyone she cares about, and the one's she almost reunites with are killed either in front of her or she's left to believe they soon will be.) I also didn't know how they'd die...in the book's it was far more horrific, because you are seeing it through Catelynn and Arya's eyes. And Catelynn goes insane...actually there are two scenes like that in Storm, mother going insane.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'll trust you on that, since you've re-read them. But I do remember someone leaving to take a piss and being upset about it. You're most likely right and it was one of the Northern Lords who I forget. I think the tv writers are trying to combine some characters or limit the number of characters - so the story doesn't get too defused. The problem with having 1000 characters in a tv series or even 100 for that matter...is you lose track of what is going on. Books are easier for some reason. That's why GRRM decided to write this as a novel series - he didn't believe you could do it for tv, too big in scope. Although I think TV helps tighten it a bit and focus the stories better.

But the downside is Robb looks a bit more idiotic than he did in the books, and like he has less of an army and not that many supporters.

Oh, just realized, the Edmure scene I was thinking of is in Feast of Crows.
I occasionally get the books confused. Edmure is a piece of work...

Overall, I think the episode worked quite well. I liked it in some respects better than the book version - less over-the-top. But because I knew ahead of time what was going to happen and had already ready the unabridged gory version - it was a bit anti-climatic. Wonder how I would have reacted if I hadn't read the books first?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten that Rains of Castamare was the Lannister House Song or Theme Song. Although Cersei does sort of tell Margery the back story behind the song in the previous episode, but I didn't realize that the song she was referring to was her house's theme song. Oh dear. That sort of makes it doubly chilling.

I do remember Ayra and Sandor fighting off the Frey soliders and someone hitting her over the head with an ax - but they didn't do that here, thank god. Probably decided the episode was busy and traumatic enough as is? (Oh apparently the girl playing Ayra is 16? This is always jarring to me in television series - the kids are played by people five -ten years older than the character's actual age, with few rare exceptions. That said, she's still very well cast. As is the kids playing Bran and Rickon...Bran is mesmerizing. That kid needs to be cast in more roles.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

My difficulty with GRRM...is whenever a character sets off on a quest to find another character - you know they are doomed. There's no way he's going to let them find each other. One or the other will either die, or they'll end up going in the opposite direction. I want to tell the characters...eh don't bother, you'll never find them. This is futile. He needs to stop doing that - it's getting a tad too predictable.

Also, I swear Ayra's story in Clash and Storm is amongst the most frustrating in the books - she basically wanders around, watches the people she cares about get killed, and every time she thinks she'll be reunited with her mother - someone pulls the rug out from under her.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Luckily she doesn't get hit with an ax in this version, just the handle. And is just knocked unconscious. This version was relatively tame in comparison to the books - no where near as gory. Catelynn didn't claw her face to shreds or go nearly as insane prior to having her throat cut. And no one got beheaded, just stabbed and shot full of arrows.

Also, surprisingly they killed Robb's Wife, Tailsa. I think the tv writers decided the whole Robb marriage plotline was far too convoluted to attempt to convey on screen (not wrong about that - you and reginaspina below have to keep explaining it to me because I keep forgetting bits of it). So they just dropped it and had Robb fall for some woman no one had heard of and didn't matter - outside of the fact that he married her and not a Frey (which obviously did matter a great deal to the Frey's), and let Tywin manipulate their demise in another way - via Roose Bolton and House Frey.
IT also kills all the speculation regarding Robb's heir - which I told you wasn't important to GRRM or the tv writers, just to the fans. The fans were still speculating on her pregnancy up to the final episode - I'm guessing what happened blew them away. It admittedly surprised me that Robb brought his wife with him - in the book's he leaves her behind and considers not going to the wedding, thinking it may not be safe, but Catelynn states he has to - or it would be a huge slight and they can't afford another one, but he should leave his wife and her family behind with the Blackfish at Riverrun. (At least that's how I remember it). Here both the Blackfish and Robb's wife are at the wedding and no one is worried in the least. And his army is with him because he wants to go directly towards Casterly Rock from the Twins and invade. In the books, he takes his army in part, because he's uncertain of House Frey. HE's not quite as stupid and arrogant in the books as he is here - if memory serves.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I'm just as happy to eliminate the "Robb's wife is pregnant" speculation. I suspect GRRM never had it in mind; it was just the readers.

I was never all that interested in Robb in the books, and I didn't like Catelyn at all. I sensed there was a trap, but I didn't realize how extensive it would be.

It's hard to know what the hard core readers think because the sites have been overloaded all day with traffic and they keep crashing. Reminds me of Seeing Red. Must be that word in the title.

BTW, I don't know if you saw this, but Joss tweeted that he hoped everyone would stop bugging him about killing off characters now with GRRM.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

While I was watching it I was hoping that HBO was going to change some things... after all, Rob's bride wasn't supposed to be there, so I hoped she might escape... but you're right, even with all the blood, it wasn't as over the top gory as it was in the book!

It was kind of exciting seeing all the fans of GoT who never read the books going into shock and threaten to cancel their HBO subscriptions! These really were incredibly popular characters he was taking out so ruthlessly!

So next Sunday is the season finale(!) so exciting.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't see that bit about Whedon. Wish I could tweet back...yep, GRRM makes you look like a wimp in the character torture/death department, Joss.
You really have to start upping your game.

The thing is...I think GRRM makes the tv writers he's working with look like wimps. Bear and The Maiden Fair was far more distressing with Theon's castration sequence and poor Brienne fighting a real live Bear. That episode was written by Martin. Rains of Castamare isn't that bad...well Tailsa is stabbed repeatedly in her pregnant belly, Rob shot with arrows and Catelynn's throat cut. Then Grey Wind shot full of arrows. So there is that. But it is nothing compared to the book.

I'd agree...can't say I was all that upset when Robb and Catelynn were killed off. For one thing I already knew about it - from the spoilers in the appendix (ie. Catelynn - died at Red Wedding, Robb Stark - died at Red Wedding - which of course made me wonder what the heck is this?) For another both characters grated on my nerves in the books. Catelynn was admittedly growing on me in Storm by the time they offed her. Neither was a favorite.
If it had been Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion, Ayra, Samwell, or Dany...I may have been far more upset. I felt much the same way about Ned Stark - not a fan.
But I was upset - for he sake of Ayra and Jon Snow...

And the Robb's wife is pregnant spec was amusing and silly - it reminds me of some of the off-kilter specs in the Buffy days.

There are people on my flist, who haven't read the books that are coming remarkably close to predicting future events in them. I give them a lot of credit. One wondered is Sansa would flee Kingslanding with Littlefinger (eh yes) but figured she would be safer or better off with Tyrion (not really).

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Given Littlefinger's creepy pedophile interest in Sansa, I'm not sure she's better off with him personally, but she's certainly better off away from the Lannisters. So I guess it's a plus.

I had gotten to the point of really disliking Catelyn, so I didn't care much about her. I did care about Ned, faults and all. But I'm basically with you in terms of my favorite characters.

And yeah, Joss is a piker compared to Martin.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was admittedly surprised that Robb's Wife was there. She isn't in the books, but she also is rarely with him in the books when he's traveling, and less seen. Their whole romance in the books is back-stage. Plus, she was set-up to marry Rob via Tywin Lannister. Here, Talisa isn't set up at all and is just some random woman that Robb falls for.

Plus killing her - gives that added shock value, where in the book's the added shock value came from beheading Robb and sewing his wolf's head on top of his body. (I really hope they don't show or mention that...that was awful. Still remember it. And over-the-top.) This worked better, even if it made Robb look like an idiot for bringing here. In fact Lord Walder Frey - more or less states as much to Robb with his eyes - "really? you really brought your wife here - to this wedding - and thrust her in my face? I'm so going to enjoy killing her in front of you."

The problem with the tv series is that Robb is played by an actor in his 20s, with full beard. When in the book's he's barely 15 years of age. And very wet-behind-the-ears. Keep in mind the Stark kids had never left Winterfell prior to Ned's decision to be Hand of the King.
I'm not sure that's gotten across as well in the tv series. The Starks come across as bigger idiots on screen than they did in the books, which I'm not sure was possible.

At any rate curious to see if it loses fans. Doubt it. People are if anything more hooked. They want to see the guys who did it get it....

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well the difference between Joss and Martin, is Joss kept killing off characters that I liked (Jenny, Fred, Tara, Spike (although he does come back) Anya...Wash (the only character I cared that much about in Firefly movie) and the characters I liked in Dollhouse) while Martin kills off characters I generally speaking don't like or care that much about. With the exception of well...that wildling gal.

That's always been a problem with Whedon - he has an irritating habit of letting characters I find annoying live (Riley, Wood, Andrew) and/or bringing them back (Warren), while killing off likable ones and not bringing them back.

Agreed on Catelyn. Is it wrong to say that I wasn't that affected by the Red Wedding? Or blown away? Not like some people appear to be. The only bit about it that bothered me was Ayra's inability to reunite with her mother - that I found frustrating. Catelynn? I merely thought, oh good, no more Catelynn pov chapters.

I cared more about Ned in some respects. And I was admittedly surprised by Ned's death, while I already knew about Catelynn's.

Given Littlefinger's creepy pedophile interest in Sansa, I'm not sure she's better off with him personally, but she's certainly better off away from the Lannisters. So I guess it's a plus.

You forget, Sansa and Tyrion were framed for Joffrey's death by Little finger and the Queen of Thorns.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Good point about Joss. Agreed.

True re Tyrion and Sansa. She might well have been executed if she hadn't left King's Landing, and that meant going with Littlefinger.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Question - do you remember in the books if Jaime Lannister knew about or was directly involved with or had anything to do with the Red Wedding? Apparently people on Tumblr and elsewhere on my flist believe he did.

Am I remembering it wrong? The show isn't clear...it just has Jamie state two episodes ago to Roose Bolton, who tells him that he's attending the Tully Wedding - that "the Lannister's send their regards".