Game of Thrones - Raines of Castamere...

[shadowkat]

Eh believe it or not, this scene was far gorier in the books. Sort of glad they didn't go there.

But in both cases it upset me, because of Arya mostly...and the fact that Robb and Catlynn had finally grown on me. It also deadened me to anything that could happen afterwards.

Weird that his wife was there and pregnant. She wasn't in the books. But I now know why - to explain why Robb is rendered defenseless and doesn't run.

Forgot the Blackfish was there...thought he wasn't. And they didn't do the scene with Edmund Tully in the bath with his new wife, who warns him when the song begins. Did it here - with Catelynn recognizing the song and seeing Lord Bolton's expression and the closing of the gates.

Oh well at least Theon wasn't on. But I missed the Lannisters quite a bit. Even though it's made clear by Lord Bolton that Tywin Lannister was behind it - when he says, "The Lannisters send their regards" - when he stabs Robb through the back.



ETA:..there be spoilage in the comments thread.

Comments

[sophist.livejournal.com]

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR GOT

I was REALLY upset in the book when the axe hit Arya. I might have stopped reading but I decided she couldn't really be dead.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Luckily she doesn't get hit with an ax in this version, just the handle. And is just knocked unconscious. This version was relatively tame in comparison to the books - no where near as gory. Catelynn didn't claw her face to shreds or go nearly as insane prior to having her throat cut. And no one got beheaded, just stabbed and shot full of arrows.

Also, surprisingly they killed Robb's Wife, Tailsa. I think the tv writers decided the whole Robb marriage plotline was far too convoluted to attempt to convey on screen (not wrong about that - you and reginaspina below have to keep explaining it to me because I keep forgetting bits of it). So they just dropped it and had Robb fall for some woman no one had heard of and didn't matter - outside of the fact that he married her and not a Frey (which obviously did matter a great deal to the Frey's), and let Tywin manipulate their demise in another way - via Roose Bolton and House Frey.
IT also kills all the speculation regarding Robb's heir - which I told you wasn't important to GRRM or the tv writers, just to the fans. The fans were still speculating on her pregnancy up to the final episode - I'm guessing what happened blew them away. It admittedly surprised me that Robb brought his wife with him - in the book's he leaves her behind and considers not going to the wedding, thinking it may not be safe, but Catelynn states he has to - or it would be a huge slight and they can't afford another one, but he should leave his wife and her family behind with the Blackfish at Riverrun. (At least that's how I remember it). Here both the Blackfish and Robb's wife are at the wedding and no one is worried in the least. And his army is with him because he wants to go directly towards Casterly Rock from the Twins and invade. In the books, he takes his army in part, because he's uncertain of House Frey. HE's not quite as stupid and arrogant in the books as he is here - if memory serves.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I'm just as happy to eliminate the "Robb's wife is pregnant" speculation. I suspect GRRM never had it in mind; it was just the readers.

I was never all that interested in Robb in the books, and I didn't like Catelyn at all. I sensed there was a trap, but I didn't realize how extensive it would be.

It's hard to know what the hard core readers think because the sites have been overloaded all day with traffic and they keep crashing. Reminds me of Seeing Red. Must be that word in the title.

BTW, I don't know if you saw this, but Joss tweeted that he hoped everyone would stop bugging him about killing off characters now with GRRM.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't see that bit about Whedon. Wish I could tweet back...yep, GRRM makes you look like a wimp in the character torture/death department, Joss.
You really have to start upping your game.

The thing is...I think GRRM makes the tv writers he's working with look like wimps. Bear and The Maiden Fair was far more distressing with Theon's castration sequence and poor Brienne fighting a real live Bear. That episode was written by Martin. Rains of Castamare isn't that bad...well Tailsa is stabbed repeatedly in her pregnant belly, Rob shot with arrows and Catelynn's throat cut. Then Grey Wind shot full of arrows. So there is that. But it is nothing compared to the book.

I'd agree...can't say I was all that upset when Robb and Catelynn were killed off. For one thing I already knew about it - from the spoilers in the appendix (ie. Catelynn - died at Red Wedding, Robb Stark - died at Red Wedding - which of course made me wonder what the heck is this?) For another both characters grated on my nerves in the books. Catelynn was admittedly growing on me in Storm by the time they offed her. Neither was a favorite.
If it had been Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion, Ayra, Samwell, or Dany...I may have been far more upset. I felt much the same way about Ned Stark - not a fan.
But I was upset - for he sake of Ayra and Jon Snow...

And the Robb's wife is pregnant spec was amusing and silly - it reminds me of some of the off-kilter specs in the Buffy days.

There are people on my flist, who haven't read the books that are coming remarkably close to predicting future events in them. I give them a lot of credit. One wondered is Sansa would flee Kingslanding with Littlefinger (eh yes) but figured she would be safer or better off with Tyrion (not really).

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Given Littlefinger's creepy pedophile interest in Sansa, I'm not sure she's better off with him personally, but she's certainly better off away from the Lannisters. So I guess it's a plus.

I had gotten to the point of really disliking Catelyn, so I didn't care much about her. I did care about Ned, faults and all. But I'm basically with you in terms of my favorite characters.

And yeah, Joss is a piker compared to Martin.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

And his army is with him because he wants to go directly towards Casterly Rock from the Twins and invade. In the books, he takes his army in part, because he's uncertain of House Frey. HE's not quite as stupid and arrogant in the books as he is here - if memory serves.

Oh, Robb was never going to Casterly Rock at all in the books; he was headed back north to retake Winterfell and the northern lands from the Greyjoys. And they needed to cross at the Twins to GO North, which is why he had most of his army with him (he left some people at Riverrun to defend it, and he left his wife there because the insult to the Freys in bringing her would have been monumental, and he didn't want HER to be insulted by Walder Frey either.) But in the books, also remember that Jeyne Westerling's family were in cahoots with Tywin Lannister (though Jeyne herself was not) and she thus probably wouldn't have been killed even if she HAD gone to the Red Wedding.

And yes, fifteen-year-old book Robb is less of an arrogant dumbass than eighteen-looks-like-he's-twenty-six year old Show !Robb :P

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I was glad too that they handled the Red Wedding that way. Made the final moment so much more impressive, too.

Since I knew mainly what was coming, my first reaction when I heard "The Rains of Castamere" was that it's a much slower version of the tune they use for "The Bear, The Bear, and the Maiden Fair." Or maybe that's my imagination?

Also, the scene where Arya sees them kill Robb's wolf may well have been in the book--just didn't remember it. So sad.

I've always wondered if those wolves who are killed are going to return as some kind of creature in the final book.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

That scene wasn't in the books.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Thanks. A hard scene to watch.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I don't have HBO, so I have to depend on the DVDs, but I imagine it was. When I read the books, I sensed that the whole setup was a trap, but didn't realize how far it would go.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, GRRM doesn't let you off easy. I suspect that Jon Snow, Arya, Bran, and Dani will survive to the last book at least, but he could kill them off in the next one, too.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

The Slate discussion of this episode (http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/tv_club/features/2013/game_of_thrones/week_9/red_wedding_the_freys_and_the_starks_meet_at_the_twins.html) makes good points about the difference with the book, esp. re Catelyn.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Since I knew mainly what was coming, my first reaction when I heard "The Rains of Castamere" was that it's a much slower version of the tune they use for "The Bear, The Bear, and the Maiden Fair." Or maybe that's my imagination?

I think the confusion is that they used the instrumental version of "The Rains of Castamere" to play over the scene of Jaime rescuing Brienne in the episode called "The Bear and the Maiden Fair." The Bolton soldiers sang "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" in the episode where Jaime loses his hand (and then they did a rocking out version of it over the end credits) and also sang it to Brienne in the bearpit, but as soon as Jaime delivers his "sorry about the sapphires" line to Locke, they switched to the "Rains of Castamere" instrumental version as the Lannisters' song of triumph :D Hope that helps!!

Also, the scene where Arya sees them kill Robb's wolf may well have been in the book--just didn't remember it. So sad.

In the book, Arya and Sandor are actually attacked by Frey soldiers and Sandor kills some of them with Arya helping. Grey Wind is freed by Robb's squire (who is Jeyne Westerling's brother) and he does some damage to the Freys/Boltons before they bring him down (and kill Jeyne's brother as well) but we don't see it as it's happening, just hear about it afterwards.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I'm not much of a musician, but I was actually thinking of the "The Bear" as sung in the credits. Probably way off, if I actually heard them together.

And thanks! Now that you remind me, I do remember how Arya;s and Grey Wind's parts went down.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten that Rains of Castamare was the Lannister House Song or Theme Song. Although Cersei does sort of tell Margery the back story behind the song in the previous episode, but I didn't realize that the song she was referring to was her house's theme song. Oh dear. That sort of makes it doubly chilling.

I do remember Ayra and Sandor fighting off the Frey soliders and someone hitting her over the head with an ax - but they didn't do that here, thank god. Probably decided the episode was busy and traumatic enough as is? (Oh apparently the girl playing Ayra is 16? This is always jarring to me in television series - the kids are played by people five -ten years older than the character's actual age, with few rare exceptions. That said, she's still very well cast. As is the kids playing Bran and Rickon...Bran is mesmerizing. That kid needs to be cast in more roles.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Question:

Do you remember what if anything Jamie knew regarding Tywin Lannister's plans in regards to Red Wedding. If memory serves, he knew nothing. It makes no sense logically that he would. But maybe I'm forgetting something? Hey, it's possible? Am I right? Did he know nothing?

Apparently there's a tumblr blog with quotes and pics of the series and books, hinting at this?


http://queencersei.tumblr.com/tagged/page_to_screen

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Do you remember what if anything Jamie knew regarding Tywin Lannister's plans in regards to Red Wedding. If memory serves, he knew nothing. It makes no sense logically that he would. But maybe I'm forgetting something? Hey, it's possible? Am I right? Did he know nothing?

He knew nothing. I mean, he knew Bolton was switching sides, because otherwise Bolton would have killed him or shipped him back to Robb Stark, not sent him to Tywin. But the specifics, that it would be assassination at the wedding, not in the least. The plot began more or less as soon as Robb married Jeyne Westerling (in the books)/Talisa (on the show). In the books, Roose and Walder Frey start this plot very early on (at the point where Arya is Roose's cupbearer - not Tywin's of course, that was only on the tv show - at Harrenhal which is when the news of Robb's marriage leaks, but Arya doesn't understand what's going on.) Roose says he's going to "hunt some wolves" and later, he sends a bunch of Northmen led by Stark loyalist lords into a hopeless battle where most of them die, and he's already married Walder Frey's daughter by then. (And Tywin's sister is married to a Frey as well, so he's got an in with Walder already.)

But Jaime is blameless in the plotting, having been a prisoner the whole time (and then getting his hand cut off.) I suppose he could have argued with Roose about switching sides and insisted that Roose send him to Robb instead of to Tywin, but that level of saintly martyrdom is probably not one we should expect from Jaime. Or anyone, really :P

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you. That's what I thought I remembered. But you never know.

Also it makes logical sense. Say what you will about Jamie - but there is no way he could have plotted or knew about the Red Wedding...he was either in prison, with Brienne, getting his hand cut off and trying to survive with Locke/Vargo (in the books - they seem the same to me, don't know why they didn't keep them the same), and keep Brienne safe. Plus Bolton wasn't exactly forthcoming with info - nor would he be.

Fandom, sigh, it never changes regardless of the material. Still lacking in the logic department.

The plot with the Westerling's was convoluted. I remember it being explained more in full in Feast of Crows. You almost have to read Feast of Crows to understand some of the machinations behind what happened in Storm. Just as you have to read Storm to figure out what was happening in Game and Clash or rather why. (the mysteries regarding Brann and John Arryan are both revealed in Storm, while the mysteries regarding Red Wedding and to a degree Joffrey are revealed in Feast.) You really can't skim in these books - you miss stuff.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Forgot the Blackfish was there...thought he wasn't.

he wasn't - he stayed at Riverrun with Robb's wife. He was sort of an amalgamation of one of the Northern lords and the book Blackfish in this, since Robb was rather bereft of supporters on the show (Karstark and Bolton being the only named ones.)

And they didn't do the scene with Edmund Tully in the bath with his new wife, who warns him when the song begins. Did it here - with Catelynn recognizing the song and seeing Lord Bolton's expression and the closing of the gates.

Roslin Frey doesn't warn Edmure at all - she cries through the entire wedding, which Catelyn (whose POV is the only one through which we see the wedding inside; we get Arya for the outside the room POV) thinks is because she's just nervous as a new bride, but in fact, it's because she knows what's coming. But she never says a word to Edmure! It is Catelyn who recognizes when the musicians switch to the "Rains of Castamere" in the books as well; the Freys use it as a signal to start their men outside killing the Stark forces.

It was all a bit different from the books (Catelyn's sense of oppressive dread is very strong in the book and here she was relaxed and smiling) but it worked really well, IMO.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'll trust you on that, since you've re-read them. But I do remember someone leaving to take a piss and being upset about it. You're most likely right and it was one of the Northern Lords who I forget. I think the tv writers are trying to combine some characters or limit the number of characters - so the story doesn't get too defused. The problem with having 1000 characters in a tv series or even 100 for that matter...is you lose track of what is going on. Books are easier for some reason. That's why GRRM decided to write this as a novel series - he didn't believe you could do it for tv, too big in scope. Although I think TV helps tighten it a bit and focus the stories better.

But the downside is Robb looks a bit more idiotic than he did in the books, and like he has less of an army and not that many supporters.

Oh, just realized, the Edmure scene I was thinking of is in Feast of Crows.
I occasionally get the books confused. Edmure is a piece of work...

Overall, I think the episode worked quite well. I liked it in some respects better than the book version - less over-the-top. But because I knew ahead of time what was going to happen and had already ready the unabridged gory version - it was a bit anti-climatic. Wonder how I would have reacted if I hadn't read the books first?

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I do remember someone leaving to take a piss and being upset about it.

Lord Bolton left to use the privy (ostensibly) but actually to fetch his swords and prime his own men to come in and finish off what the Freys started. I LOVE the chapter in the books, I think it is really the best thing Martin wrote with its pervasive sense of dread and wrongness so I remember it really, really well. And there is a terrible moment in the books when the Bolton men come in and Catelyn and the other Northern lords think that they're going to save the day, and then it turns out that they are in cahoots with the Freys instead, and Roose stabs Robb to the heart. SOBSOB!

I think there are more named individuals with personalities who die in the books (and one of the ladies, Dacey Mormont, gets take out with an axe blow to the belly) but honestly, watching Talisa get stabbed in the uterus like a hundred times was a lot gorier than imagining the scene from the books in my head. Meep!

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well that was fun... actually I kind of regretted that I had read the books, it would have been really mind blowing to have seen this episode without knowing what was going to happen! As I recall I was totally gobsmacked when I did read that chapter, and had to start over and reread the chapter. LOL

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Feel more or less the same way. I sort of wish I hadn't read the books. In some respects I prefer how the TV series is handling things - it's more understated and less over-the-top.

I was so relieved that we didn't have to watch Catelynn claw her skin off down to the bone, kill "Jinglebell" - the Jester who sings The Rains of Castamare - it's actually sung in the book - because we get the words, I think. Cersei explains the song in the previous episode, so I guess it's not necessary to have the words here - the violin's are more eerie anyhow. OR watch Robb get beheaded along with the entire company. They didn't show the Frey's sewing Robb's Wolf's head onto his body, the Lannister's and Queen of Thorns just talk about it in the book. Hoping they don't show it in the series...doesn't appear they will.

I remember checking the appendix for some reason or other and being bewildered by the mention of Robb and Catelyn both dying at the Red Wedding. Okay, I thought, what the heck?

Then I read it and ...the most painful bit of it, is well the same thing that was incredibly painful about Ned Stark's death - you think the writer is going to reunite Ned with Jon Snow at the Wall...but nooo, and in this one, you are lead to believe Arya is finally going to reunited with her mother and brother, you may even be writing fanfic in your head about the reunion...but noooo...

When the Red Wedding happened, I still had hope. So while I knew Catelynn and Robb would die, I figured Ayra may get reunited with them first - eh no. (Actually the whole Ayra section in Storm is highly frustrating - poor kid can't seem to reunite with anyone she cares about, and the one's she almost reunites with are killed either in front of her or she's left to believe they soon will be.) I also didn't know how they'd die...in the book's it was far more horrific, because you are seeing it through Catelynn and Arya's eyes. And Catelynn goes insane...actually there are two scenes like that in Storm, mother going insane.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

While I was watching it I was hoping that HBO was going to change some things... after all, Rob's bride wasn't supposed to be there, so I hoped she might escape... but you're right, even with all the blood, it wasn't as over the top gory as it was in the book!

It was kind of exciting seeing all the fans of GoT who never read the books going into shock and threaten to cancel their HBO subscriptions! These really were incredibly popular characters he was taking out so ruthlessly!

So next Sunday is the season finale(!) so exciting.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was admittedly surprised that Robb's Wife was there. She isn't in the books, but she also is rarely with him in the books when he's traveling, and less seen. Their whole romance in the books is back-stage. Plus, she was set-up to marry Rob via Tywin Lannister. Here, Talisa isn't set up at all and is just some random woman that Robb falls for.

Plus killing her - gives that added shock value, where in the book's the added shock value came from beheading Robb and sewing his wolf's head on top of his body. (I really hope they don't show or mention that...that was awful. Still remember it. And over-the-top.) This worked better, even if it made Robb look like an idiot for bringing here. In fact Lord Walder Frey - more or less states as much to Robb with his eyes - "really? you really brought your wife here - to this wedding - and thrust her in my face? I'm so going to enjoy killing her in front of you."

The problem with the tv series is that Robb is played by an actor in his 20s, with full beard. When in the book's he's barely 15 years of age. And very wet-behind-the-ears. Keep in mind the Stark kids had never left Winterfell prior to Ned's decision to be Hand of the King.
I'm not sure that's gotten across as well in the tv series. The Starks come across as bigger idiots on screen than they did in the books, which I'm not sure was possible.

At any rate curious to see if it loses fans. Doubt it. People are if anything more hooked. They want to see the guys who did it get it....