Game of Thrones - Raines of Castamere...

[shadowkat]

Eh believe it or not, this scene was far gorier in the books. Sort of glad they didn't go there.

But in both cases it upset me, because of Arya mostly...and the fact that Robb and Catlynn had finally grown on me. It also deadened me to anything that could happen afterwards.

Weird that his wife was there and pregnant. She wasn't in the books. But I now know why - to explain why Robb is rendered defenseless and doesn't run.

Forgot the Blackfish was there...thought he wasn't. And they didn't do the scene with Edmund Tully in the bath with his new wife, who warns him when the song begins. Did it here - with Catelynn recognizing the song and seeing Lord Bolton's expression and the closing of the gates.

Oh well at least Theon wasn't on. But I missed the Lannisters quite a bit. Even though it's made clear by Lord Bolton that Tywin Lannister was behind it - when he says, "The Lannisters send their regards" - when he stabs Robb through the back.



ETA:..there be spoilage in the comments thread.

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

With Whedon, the most notable deaths (Jenny Calendar, Joyce, Tara) seem fairly random: Angel could have chosen any of Buffy's friends to kill; aneurysms could happen to anyone; and Tara died from a random shot intended for Buffy.

Operative word here is "seem", because once you examine them they aren't random at all either from a writing perspective or a plot perspective.

1) Jenny - Angel kills her to prevent her from cursing him again, plus it provides an added bonus of hurting Giles (who Angel associates with his father - Angel has issues with father figures and approval. Note Angel spends a lot of time with Giles and goes to Giles for advice, ignores Joyce, while Spike spends a lot of time with Joyce and goes to Joyce for advice, ignoring Giles. That's deliberate and character motivated - so not random.)

2. Joyce - is ill from brain tumor and then gets an aneurysm - which is never explained but very well could be the end result of all the memory tinkering, and other things going on with her that year. Whedon kills Joyce off to further Buffy's story (clearly not random) - he specifically chooses her mother - it furthers the characters. Also gives him a chance to discuss death. Finally, the actress portraying the character was leaving the show to do something else - again not random.

3. Tara - this was planned by the writer a long time ago to turn another character dark and further that character, Willow's story thread. (Personally I think if the writer was a wee bit more creative and less in love with Willow the character, he may have seen far better and interesting ways of accomplishing this, which also would have been more realistic. Because as fan's pointed out in seemingly endless arguments that bullet was magical - at it's trajectory, there is no way it could have hit Tara. But that's another discussion). At any rate - it's clear that Warren is a threat. It's clear sooner or later he's going to come gunning for the Scooby Gang, it is also clear that they aren't taking him seriously (not a god or vampire). In some respects this was more realistic. Why none of the other villains ever thought to simply pick up a gun and open fire, I'll never know.
At any rate - not random, hardly an accident, and the result of a shooter who was insane and decided to kill people. If the guy wasn't able to get a gun, if he had been turned into the police sooner or dealt with sooner, if Buffy and Willow had handled him differently - wouldn't have happened.

I think I would have bought Whedon's view of Randomness better if someone other than a supporting character died. None of the major characters really die and stay dead. It feels all so very Star Trekian...red shirts die and guest stars, but we must not kill the core five or six, or our fans will be at us with pitch-forks.

In a random verse? Willow would have died or Xander or Giles. It's almost too convienent that Angel picks the character Buffy cares the least about - Jenny, or Tara. Why didn't Angel kill Willow? Or Warren shoot Xander? Which is closer to what GRRM did with the Red Wedding - he killed the heroes, the characters many fans were rooting for. In a seemingly random manner, yet look deeper, as you look deeper on Whedon's series - and it isn't. The only difference is Whedon caters to his fans, GRRM is telling his story.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the causal chain; see my response above.

Your point about the characters being of less importance to Buffy is spot on. There are good story-telling reasons for this, but it's true.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

There are good story-telling reasons, true...but I also felt the writers chickened out a bit. They should have killed off either Willow, Xander or Giles. I would have picked Xander. It would have resonated more for both fans and Buffy - and would have done a better job of questioning what she was doing and how we view heroes and these tropes. If Whedon wanted to be truly daring and subversive - he'd have killed off either Xander or Willow -but the network forbade it and he couldn't. GRRM luckily doesn't have that problem on HBO - HBO leaves its writers alone for the most part. Dustin Hoffman recently stated that on HBO - you are completely left alone and have a great budget. Network tv isn't quite as forgiving or easy.

Whedon had to do 22 episodes for the WB and Fox, for a tween audience. There's only so much you can do within those boundaries. I wonder sometimes what he would have done for an HBO or Showtime? Would it have been more like Cabin in the Woods or Dollhouse?

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Well, you KNOW I'd have lost no sleep if he'd killed off Xander. And, to be honest, it makes sense as plot (though not as metaphor: Xander = heart).

If I ever got to ask Joss a question, it might be what he'd have done without the outside constraints, particularly budget. Of course, SMG never would have done the nude scenes for HBO. :)

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had heard that Xander was originally supposed to be killed by Angel? You could even argue that Angel might kill him because Xander is the only one who never trusted Angel and tells the others not to, and I feel like Angelus might enjoy proving Xander right. But they chose Jenny instead.

Frankly, I'd have been overjoyed if they killed off Xander. I never once liked him in the show, and especially in the later seasons I kept thinking "Why are you still here, Xander?" I know he's supposed to be the "heart" of the group, but... I never really understood that. He treats Buffy AND Willow horribly. He's a terrible friend, and I never got why we were supposed to treat him like he was providing useful or important commentary.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Ah, where were you when I needed you at AtPO?

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

AtPO??

[sophist.livejournal.com]

All Things Philosophical on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It's the board where sk and I met. To give you some sense of my view of Xander, someone put up a thread once entitled "Why Sophist [me] Shouldn't Hate Xander".

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Xander was one of those characters that seemed to push people's triggers one way or the other. Have a lot of folks on my flist who adore the character, and he is their favorite male character. And one of my friends at the time (cjl) adored him.

I was admittedly ambivalent about the character. Didn't care one way or the other. I felt the writers run out of ideas or grew tired of the character somewhere after Hells Bells...and feels like the token guy who gives pep speeches or calls people on their shit. Also, the character really began to grate on my nerves in S6 - with his hypocritical judgemental moralizing. I so wanted to see him get it - I think I applauded when Buffy got shot in Seeing Red - because it kicked Xander in the gut. Also Selfless - was a joy to behold, Xander finally gets to see his hypocrisy up close and personal. (actually the S6-7 made it difficult for me to care what happened to Xander, which ended up proving problematic when I read the comics.)

I give the actor a lot of credit - he made the actor, who was written poorly at times, rather interesting. Whedon clearly didn't know what to do with him after a certain point. And the actor was an alcoholic - which spiraled out of control during the sixth and seventh seasons, that's why we saw less of him.

Rumor has it Whedon originally intended Xander to be the Ben character in S5, but thought better of it (because it doesn't track at all) and
considered killing him and having him pop up as The First in S7, which the actor states he sort of wished they had done, because he would have had something to do - he was bored out of his mind in S7. (And so were die-hard Xander fans.) I'm lucky, I picked a more interesting character to adore - Spike. If I'd picked Xander...I think I'd have stopped watching in S6.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I think there's a strong correlation between those who liked Xander and those who disliked S6-7. I also think NB's personal problems explain a lot about how his character was used in S7 (not so much in S6, which was always going to be Willow and Spike dominant [no pun intended]).

I actually jumped up from my couch and shouted at the TV when Buffy threw Xander's hypocrisy in his face in Selfless.