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shadowkatManaged to figure out how to make fried chicken and fried zuccini/summer squash with almond flour last night. Seasoned it with garlic/parsley/sea salt/pepper, and used coconut oil. Was rather tasty.
Read that some online blog or zine believes :
AtS is better than BtVS. "If Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a show about becoming, then Angel is about something far more challenging: existing. There is a rot to the world, one that threatens to infect us all—not in grand, dramatic ways, but mundane ones. Entropy and inertia are the natural order of things. According to Holland Manners, the world doesn’t work in spite of evil—it works with it".
Eh, the two series are so completely different in tone and style, that it is akin to saying an apple is better than a pear. You either prefer the pear or the apple, but one is not necessarily better than the other. I personally prefer apples - I like the crunch and variety, pears are too mushy. Not a fan of mushy texture. Also pears are sweeter and have a higher inflammatory index. But I know lots of people who prefer pears.
My brother never understood why I preferred Buffy to Angel. He thought Angel was more adult (eh, not really - well not if you include the last four seasons of Buffy, which he wasn't fond of.) Also, my sister-in-law and brother never understood why my mother and I preferred Spike. My mother didn't like Angel and could never get into the series that bore his name, because in part she found the character uninteresting and the actor wooden. While my brother and sisinlaw loved the series, and found Angel adorable. Also they found the physical comedy on Angel hilarious, while it tended to fall flat for me - but the witty by-play and absurdist comedy on Buffy had me laughing out loud.
My father, on the other hand, blissfully ignored both series and watches NCIS instead.
Never been a fan of fantasy serials.
We don't discuss it much. But it is interesting - how people swear one series is better than another, when if fact they are merely just pointing out a preference which has zip to do with any objective criteria whatsoever. I mean, I can argue both are excellent and both are campy cheesy serials, with little effort.
I do however think that of the two, Buffy was far more innovative. Let's face it - Angel has been done multiple times. Brimstone (short-lived), Koljack the Night Stalker, Forever Knight, Moonlight, etc. The most innovative take on the whole Angel trope is probably the serial The Originals, which isn't nearly as well written or captivating. But Buffy? I can't think of anything that resembles Buffy past or present. The closest might have been Veronica Mars. Vamp Diaries - is more about the vampires, not about a girl's coming of age story fighting them. And is there any female superhero shows on at the moment? Not that I can think of. In the past? Maybe Wonder Woman or Dark Angel - but neither featured quite the type of character line up that Buffy had. No, I think one of the reasons I became a die-hard fan of Buffy in a way that I have not become a fan of anything else before or since, is that it just broke the mold or stood outside of the trope, often making fun of or satirising the tropes it found itself in. It just was so different. And unlike a lot of tv shows, never sat on its laurels or phoned it in - the writers kept experimenting and playing with the narrative form. I can't think of many tv shows that have done all of that.
So yes, from that perspective Buffy was the more innovative and interesting series. Angel was a spin-off that initially followed a fairly safe and traditional anti-hero noir detective trope. What Angel did do that separated itself from the pack, however, is it became highly serialized and built a mythology. It also played a little with the trope and commented on it, often making fun of itself in the process, particularly in the latter (and in my opinion at least far more interesting and innovative) seasons.
Actually if you think about it - both shows have that in common. The initial seasons sort of follow a standard and somewhat formulaic traditional television trope. A gang of high-school kids fight and occasionally fall in love with monsters, and the monsters reflect the nasty high school issues they are dealing with. That has sort of been done before and after Buffy - Vampire Diaries was sort of that trope, Hex, and a few others. Albeit not as often as the supernatural noirish lone detective trope has been done (the latest entry to that fold is Constantine and well Sleepy Hollow, Gotham, and Supernatural). Angel started out that way, then sort of drifted away from it - making a law firm of all things the main villain. Normally it's other vampires, family members, demons, or some criminal mob boss - but here it was lawyers and their ability to create order through "laws". Angel tackled order, law, regulations, and control as problems. The Authority - was always the main problem for Angel, the monster or demon that had to be overcome - whether that authority was religious in nature (ie. God or the PTB), legal (the evil law firm WRH), or societal pressures. The phrase "Everybody thinks this is a good idea" - was often the opposite on Angel. And this was in a way what set Angel apart from it's predecessors who often focused on chaos as the bad guy. In Forever Knight - the lead character was a cop, and the monsters were people outside of the police force. On Angel - the bad guy was the police force.
Buffy was similar in a way - it too had issues with Authority. The Mayor was one the major villains in the series. As was the Watcher Council - who could not be counted on and often did more harm than good. Buffy was in some respects based heavily on the Western Trope of the lone gunfighter who comes into town to fix it up, the police, mayor, principal, council - all being a bit on the shady side and part of the problem. It's notable that when Buffy finally becomes an authority figure herself - she becomes her own worst enemy and must blow the town apart along with her image, until she becomes once again - the fighter, not the leader of an increasingly bureaucratic and fascist system.
While it's tempting to think that the writers/creators of these series have been reading a wee bit too much Ayn Rand in their spare time, I don't believe this to be the case. For one thing, not all authority is circumspect, nor is the individual always right. In Rand's universe - as satirized recently online, Buffy would not suffer the aid of Xander or pre-witch Willow. She would do it on her own. And she'd demand to be paid for it. (Although to be fair, I always thought the Council should have given her some compensation. I don't buy into the naive and somewhat childish theory that superheros should save people for free or out of pure altruism - when they have no income and aren't independently wealthy. Heck, soliders, firemen, and cops don't. Support your local sheriff. But that's beside the point and has zip to do with Rand, who was a bit of an extremist in her views. Probably the result of growing up in Stalinist Russia. A good and nasty dictatorship could turn anyone into an extremist.) At any rate - the rebellion against Authority or the Powers that Be is certainly not a new concept and not limited to Whedon or even Rand, although I think Rand had more problems with people who wanted to be taken care of - than authority per se, as long as she was the authority. Phillip Pullman certainly tackles similar issues with his controversial series of children's books entitled His Dark Materials - where a couple of kids challenge The Authority or the organization supporting HIM, the Authority doesn't appear to be around. An idea that has been borrowed to a degree by Supernatural - where Dean and Sam, demon hunters extrordinare, equally question the unknowable and notably absent Authority - and his crumbling organization of angelic followers. Or George Orwell and Adolus Huxley who warn of the dangers of trusting an Authority too much with our basic freedoms and rights in the sci-fi novels 1984 and Brave New World respectively.
But just because it's not a new idea, does not mean you can't be innovative. After all, to borrow an old adage from copyright law, there are no new ideas or even original ones, just new ways of playing with them. What Angel and Buffy did differently was how they envisioned the Authority, and dealt with the struggle to defeat it - discovering to both their considerable chagrin - that when they did finally overthrow or seemingly overthrew the Authority, someone or something had to fill the vaccume left behind - and in both cases it turned out to be Buffy and Angel.
When they became the Authority or guy/gal in charge - things didn't quite work as they thought. They found themselves making some of the same mistakes the authority figures they spent so much time fighting had made. In the end, the only escape, was to blow it apart. Creating another problem - chaos.
Unlike most series, there is no neat ending here. Buffy blows up her town, shares her power, journey's off into the horizon - but is suddenly responsible for all those girls she empowered and the consequences of unleashing them into the world with no rules or authority to train or hinder them. Angel similarly blows up the law firm, and is dumped into Chaos...with hell raining down on him.
The writer's don't provide neat answers. Just questions. Destroy the authority, do we become it? And what then? The child rebels against the adult order, only to become that order...Neither extreme works, and both try to work towards the happy medium.
Most series don't appear to explore it to quite that degree or in quite that fashion. Since Buffy and Angel don't just tackle religious order but also societal order. Most series seem to stop short somewhere along the road. And that may be how these differed at least to me.
Your Mileage May Vary of course.
Need to make dinner.This was unedited and not proofed. Read at your own risk. I may come back and edit tomorrow. Not sure. Didn't plan on writing it. Just sort of came out. [ETA - has been edited somewhat.]
Read that some online blog or zine believes :
AtS is better than BtVS. "If Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a show about becoming, then Angel is about something far more challenging: existing. There is a rot to the world, one that threatens to infect us all—not in grand, dramatic ways, but mundane ones. Entropy and inertia are the natural order of things. According to Holland Manners, the world doesn’t work in spite of evil—it works with it".
Eh, the two series are so completely different in tone and style, that it is akin to saying an apple is better than a pear. You either prefer the pear or the apple, but one is not necessarily better than the other. I personally prefer apples - I like the crunch and variety, pears are too mushy. Not a fan of mushy texture. Also pears are sweeter and have a higher inflammatory index. But I know lots of people who prefer pears.
My brother never understood why I preferred Buffy to Angel. He thought Angel was more adult (eh, not really - well not if you include the last four seasons of Buffy, which he wasn't fond of.) Also, my sister-in-law and brother never understood why my mother and I preferred Spike. My mother didn't like Angel and could never get into the series that bore his name, because in part she found the character uninteresting and the actor wooden. While my brother and sisinlaw loved the series, and found Angel adorable. Also they found the physical comedy on Angel hilarious, while it tended to fall flat for me - but the witty by-play and absurdist comedy on Buffy had me laughing out loud.
My father, on the other hand, blissfully ignored both series and watches NCIS instead.
Never been a fan of fantasy serials.
We don't discuss it much. But it is interesting - how people swear one series is better than another, when if fact they are merely just pointing out a preference which has zip to do with any objective criteria whatsoever. I mean, I can argue both are excellent and both are campy cheesy serials, with little effort.
I do however think that of the two, Buffy was far more innovative. Let's face it - Angel has been done multiple times. Brimstone (short-lived), Koljack the Night Stalker, Forever Knight, Moonlight, etc. The most innovative take on the whole Angel trope is probably the serial The Originals, which isn't nearly as well written or captivating. But Buffy? I can't think of anything that resembles Buffy past or present. The closest might have been Veronica Mars. Vamp Diaries - is more about the vampires, not about a girl's coming of age story fighting them. And is there any female superhero shows on at the moment? Not that I can think of. In the past? Maybe Wonder Woman or Dark Angel - but neither featured quite the type of character line up that Buffy had. No, I think one of the reasons I became a die-hard fan of Buffy in a way that I have not become a fan of anything else before or since, is that it just broke the mold or stood outside of the trope, often making fun of or satirising the tropes it found itself in. It just was so different. And unlike a lot of tv shows, never sat on its laurels or phoned it in - the writers kept experimenting and playing with the narrative form. I can't think of many tv shows that have done all of that.
So yes, from that perspective Buffy was the more innovative and interesting series. Angel was a spin-off that initially followed a fairly safe and traditional anti-hero noir detective trope. What Angel did do that separated itself from the pack, however, is it became highly serialized and built a mythology. It also played a little with the trope and commented on it, often making fun of itself in the process, particularly in the latter (and in my opinion at least far more interesting and innovative) seasons.
Actually if you think about it - both shows have that in common. The initial seasons sort of follow a standard and somewhat formulaic traditional television trope. A gang of high-school kids fight and occasionally fall in love with monsters, and the monsters reflect the nasty high school issues they are dealing with. That has sort of been done before and after Buffy - Vampire Diaries was sort of that trope, Hex, and a few others. Albeit not as often as the supernatural noirish lone detective trope has been done (the latest entry to that fold is Constantine and well Sleepy Hollow, Gotham, and Supernatural). Angel started out that way, then sort of drifted away from it - making a law firm of all things the main villain. Normally it's other vampires, family members, demons, or some criminal mob boss - but here it was lawyers and their ability to create order through "laws". Angel tackled order, law, regulations, and control as problems. The Authority - was always the main problem for Angel, the monster or demon that had to be overcome - whether that authority was religious in nature (ie. God or the PTB), legal (the evil law firm WRH), or societal pressures. The phrase "Everybody thinks this is a good idea" - was often the opposite on Angel. And this was in a way what set Angel apart from it's predecessors who often focused on chaos as the bad guy. In Forever Knight - the lead character was a cop, and the monsters were people outside of the police force. On Angel - the bad guy was the police force.
Buffy was similar in a way - it too had issues with Authority. The Mayor was one the major villains in the series. As was the Watcher Council - who could not be counted on and often did more harm than good. Buffy was in some respects based heavily on the Western Trope of the lone gunfighter who comes into town to fix it up, the police, mayor, principal, council - all being a bit on the shady side and part of the problem. It's notable that when Buffy finally becomes an authority figure herself - she becomes her own worst enemy and must blow the town apart along with her image, until she becomes once again - the fighter, not the leader of an increasingly bureaucratic and fascist system.
While it's tempting to think that the writers/creators of these series have been reading a wee bit too much Ayn Rand in their spare time, I don't believe this to be the case. For one thing, not all authority is circumspect, nor is the individual always right. In Rand's universe - as satirized recently online, Buffy would not suffer the aid of Xander or pre-witch Willow. She would do it on her own. And she'd demand to be paid for it. (Although to be fair, I always thought the Council should have given her some compensation. I don't buy into the naive and somewhat childish theory that superheros should save people for free or out of pure altruism - when they have no income and aren't independently wealthy. Heck, soliders, firemen, and cops don't. Support your local sheriff. But that's beside the point and has zip to do with Rand, who was a bit of an extremist in her views. Probably the result of growing up in Stalinist Russia. A good and nasty dictatorship could turn anyone into an extremist.) At any rate - the rebellion against Authority or the Powers that Be is certainly not a new concept and not limited to Whedon or even Rand, although I think Rand had more problems with people who wanted to be taken care of - than authority per se, as long as she was the authority. Phillip Pullman certainly tackles similar issues with his controversial series of children's books entitled His Dark Materials - where a couple of kids challenge The Authority or the organization supporting HIM, the Authority doesn't appear to be around. An idea that has been borrowed to a degree by Supernatural - where Dean and Sam, demon hunters extrordinare, equally question the unknowable and notably absent Authority - and his crumbling organization of angelic followers. Or George Orwell and Adolus Huxley who warn of the dangers of trusting an Authority too much with our basic freedoms and rights in the sci-fi novels 1984 and Brave New World respectively.
But just because it's not a new idea, does not mean you can't be innovative. After all, to borrow an old adage from copyright law, there are no new ideas or even original ones, just new ways of playing with them. What Angel and Buffy did differently was how they envisioned the Authority, and dealt with the struggle to defeat it - discovering to both their considerable chagrin - that when they did finally overthrow or seemingly overthrew the Authority, someone or something had to fill the vaccume left behind - and in both cases it turned out to be Buffy and Angel.
When they became the Authority or guy/gal in charge - things didn't quite work as they thought. They found themselves making some of the same mistakes the authority figures they spent so much time fighting had made. In the end, the only escape, was to blow it apart. Creating another problem - chaos.
Unlike most series, there is no neat ending here. Buffy blows up her town, shares her power, journey's off into the horizon - but is suddenly responsible for all those girls she empowered and the consequences of unleashing them into the world with no rules or authority to train or hinder them. Angel similarly blows up the law firm, and is dumped into Chaos...with hell raining down on him.
The writer's don't provide neat answers. Just questions. Destroy the authority, do we become it? And what then? The child rebels against the adult order, only to become that order...Neither extreme works, and both try to work towards the happy medium.
Most series don't appear to explore it to quite that degree or in quite that fashion. Since Buffy and Angel don't just tackle religious order but also societal order. Most series seem to stop short somewhere along the road. And that may be how these differed at least to me.
Your Mileage May Vary of course.
Need to make dinner.
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no subject
Date: 2014-10-08 02:39 pm (UTC)The writer's don't provide neat answers. Just questions. Destroy the authority, do we become it? And what then? The child rebels against the adult order, only to become that order...Neither extreme works, and both try to work towards the happy medium.
I'm copying this entire portion because this is probably one of the best summations of what the series were and what they were trying to do (at least btvs, I haven't seen Angel) that I've come across, in terms of questions of power and authority, which are embedded in btvs from the very first episode. (the mild librarian is a Watcher, the principal is eaten by his own students, etc)
And I know not everyone agrees but I like the open-endedness; the insistence that everything be neatly wrapped up by the last episode seems besides the point to me. NFA is somewhat more open-ended than Chosen, I think? (Again, going from what I've read not seen) But ME had Btvs as a "laboratory" to practice and experiment for AtS.
she becomes her own worst enemy and must blow the town apart along with her image, until she becomes once again
That's a great image, and probably the best summary of Chosen yet, and I love the parallel to the lone gunslinger trope. (Which I've rarely seen stated - is it because of Buffy's gender, or the fantasy and romance elements? - but seems perfectly obvious now.)
ETA: found this via petzipellepingo's rec list: http://petzipellepingo.livejournal.com/10604747.html
no subject
Date: 2014-10-08 11:06 pm (UTC)NFA is somewhat more open-ended than Chosen, I think? (Again, going from what I've read not seen)
Yes and no. I've heard valid arguments on both sides. It depends on how you choose to interpret the episodes, I suspect.
NFA - does sort of end with the demons raining down on them, and it does look like our heroes are walking to their deaths. (The Wild Bunch/Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ending - a popular 1970s Western ending - where the protagonists walk into a final gunfight, and die fighting. You don't necessarily see it.) The other interpretation is they survived to fight another day (or Brian Lynch's comic book series ending).
Chosen - on the other hand, really is pretty open-ended. Buffy and her friends leave Sunnydale and appear to riding off into the sunset in their school bus. But she empowered all these new slayers and in Angel we learn they've set up shop over seas and are training slayers. Only the "Sunnydale" chapter has been closed.
While in Angel - he doesn't leave LA and appears to go down with the city. A true noir ending.
So of the two...Angel's is arguably less open-ended. It's just the more nihilistic ending, but that is in keeping with its genre - noir, where the hero is doomed to forever fall into the abyss, along with the world he inhabits. Some prefer that, but I don't think you can objectively state it is better, more adult, etc...it's just a genre preference.
which are embedded in btvs from the very first episode. (the mild librarian is a Watcher, the principal is eaten by his own students, etc)
Yes, I think the authority theme is one of the few themes that carries through to the very end of the series. And to fully appreciate the depth of the exploration - you sort of have to have seen the entire series. Something is lost - in skipping over bits. Some episodes explore more in depth than others, but it is definitely in all of them to some extent.
I've also noticed that it is a recurring theme in Mutant Enemy's other work - such as Marvel Agents of Shield, Firefly, Dollhouse, Much Ado About Nothing, and Cabin in the Woods. Although not quite as deftly examined as it is in BTVS, oddly.
no subject
Date: 2014-10-12 12:23 am (UTC)In the Buffyverse they are denied the right to really mature - they are simply seen as static entities. Moving to AtS opens their personal universes in some amazing ways. I know this was needed - Buffy had it's quota of characters to follow if nothing else.
no subject
Date: 2014-10-12 01:03 am (UTC)It defied description - another reason why Buffy stands heads and shoulders above Angel in television history. It blended genres and created a new one.
I would even say that some of those who do not handle the authority issue well - Wesley and Faith, obviously in different ways - are only redeemed in AtS. They were noir characters in a non-noir universe.
Well, to be fair, they weren't really part of the cast, so much as guest stars or supporting players, sort of like Lilah and Lindsey were in ATS. But in ATS, Wes was a lead character. And Faith was paired up as a foil to Angel not Buffy. Keep that in mind. Angel doesn't believe he can be redeemed, he would like to redeem Faith - she's sort of a foil. It's why Spike is redeemed on Buffy not really redeemed on Angel (unless you think he was in S5 Angel, but I honestly think he was redeemed in Buffy first.) He's to Buffy what Faith was Angel in many ways, and vice versa.
n the Buffyverse they are denied the right to really mature - they are simply seen as static entities. Moving to AtS opens their personal universes in some amazing ways. I know this was needed - Buffy had it's quota of characters to follow if nothing else.
Also different focus and themes. Wes was explored to a degree on Buffy - but considering he was on the series for about five to six episodes in the 3rd season and as a foil for Giles and barely had that many lines - while on ATS - he was basically Angel's version of Giles and a major character - in pretty much all the episodes.
Same with Faith in some respects. Although I actually think she had a far more interesting arc on Buffy - I prefer the episodes Consequences, Enemies, Who are You and This Year's Girl to the one's on ATS that I barely remember. And Who Are You is the episode that changed Faith, just as Bad Girls was. Angel basically was the wrap up.
So, I'll have to disagree on Faith - I think her arc on Buffy was far more interesting. Granted she didn't have as much to do in S7 - but at that point - it was more about Buffy coming to terms with Faith. And I'm not all that sure she had all that much to do on Angel in S4 - because she mainly served as a sounding board or foil for Angel's fight with Angelus in Orpheus, as well as Wes in the prior episode.
Keep in mind - Angel only explored characters that furthered Angel's arc. Spike's arc was far more interesting on Buffy than Angel - in more episodes. And Willow and Buffy - same deal - better on Buffy.
Darla and Dru however got more screen time on Angel - which makes sense they are Angelus' family - they informed Angel. Buffy? They were villains - although we did get more back story on Dru in Buffy than we did on Angel, actually, due to Spike. So Dru was actually better developed on Buffy. On Angel - she was merely something he felt guilty and responsible about.
no subject
Date: 2014-10-12 01:36 am (UTC)Also different focus and themes. Wes was explored to a degree on Buffy - but considering he was on the series for about five to six episodes in the 3rd season and as a foil for Giles and barely had that many lines - while on ATS - he was basically Angel's version of Giles and a major character - in pretty much all the episodes.
<italics> Also different focus and themes. Wes was explored to a degree on Buffy - but considering he was on the series for about five to six episodes in the 3rd season and as a foil for Giles and barely had that many lines - while on ATS - he was basically Angel's version of Giles and a major character - in pretty much all the episodes. <italics\>
Yeah - I can understand all that as a Doylist. But I was pure Watsonian in my comments. And in a Watsonian sense, this is what went wrong for Wesley. In fact, though he did take a moral stand in trading for Willow, he also made an ass of himself, got fired and tried to reinvent himself as a rogue demon hunt. But he was still desperately in need of validation.
<italics> So, I'll have to disagree on Faith - I think her arc on Buffy was far more interesting. Granted she didn't have as much to do in S7 - but at that point - it was more about Buffy coming to terms with Faith. And I'm not all that sure she had all that much to do on Angel in S4 - because she mainly served as a sounding board or foil for Angel's fight with Angelus in Orpheus, as well as Wes in the prior episode. <italics\>
I prefer her in Angel, from her torture of Wesley to the Angel Orpheus sequence. "Dude, you saved a puppy!", I like the emotional range she had in Angel, as well as her faith in Angel. It's very like Spike's faith in Buffy, really.
Okay - ignore the pretend italics.....sigh
no subject
Date: 2014-10-12 10:00 pm (UTC)Angel is the opposite - Angel likes the patriarchial order, and wants its approval. He's the kid who rebels to get his parents attention but wants approval, while Buffy isn't really rebelling, so much as questioning the authority and deciding, okay, this doesn't work - I'm doing this instead. The different perspectives on authority are rather important I think in how the story arcs play out. Angel like Wes doesn't really dismiss it out of hand. And he struggles to play by its rules, even if he resides outside them. From Angel's perspective, Wes is similar to Giles...an information resource and someone to trust. And Angel, unlike Buffy, sympathizes with Wes on a deep level - both have father issues. Both want/need their father's approval. Both desire power and either don't have it or have it by unsavory means. And both want redemption - for past wrongs or failings. Buffy may have father issues but not quite on the same level as Angel and Wes.
Because of the perspective, the supporting characters come across differently.
Angel was far more interesting in his own series than on Buffy for example.
And even Spike - we see a different Spike on Angel, he's coarser in some ways,
and rougher. Even Buffy herself is different on Angel than on Buffy, because of whose pov we are in.
Angel doesn't believe in redemption, but Buffy clearly does - that comes across in the tone and focus of both series. On Angel - Spike's soul is questioned and whether a vampire can be good without one (of course not - from Angel's perception). But on Buffy, Spike gets his soul and it's not really questioned. Angel has to question it - or admit to his own failing.
Buffy doesn't quite have that problem, she does question it to an extent, but she is able to shrug the Angel conundrum off a bit - while Angel obviously can't. Also Spike could rest the shanshu from him, take away Angel's destiny, which has kept him going for the past five years...that means Angel has to worry about Spike. He's going to view him differently and emphasize his faults. Unlike Buffy - he's in competition with Spike. Buffy, on the other hand, questions Faith, because unlike Angel - she's in competition with Faith.
Faith is a threat. But less of one than Spike is to Angel. So Faith will always be viewed slightly differently in Buffy's pov - less capable, not trust-worthy. While in Angel's she is.
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Date: 2014-10-12 05:07 am (UTC)Wesley was much more interesting on Angel - but notably, he *was* redeemed on Buffy. He speed up at the battle and Buffy admitted tacitly that it was classy. He ends Grad Day a buffoon - but a buffoon who gave his all, and survives. Giles even makes a point of mentioning he is going to find him! So BtVS seven gives happier, more redemptive endings for Cordelia and Wesley in s3 than AtS does.
In a way, AtS really is almost against the idea that redemption ia possible. The only unqualified success in redemption is Faith - and as you say, it was WAY that did the big work of turning her around. Connor gets 'redeemed' - but not really; Angel replaced the real Connor with a completely different person. We see Angel's stance on Lindsey. Lilah remains damned. Harmony even gets a sort of happier ending on Buffy - she at least grows enough to recognize that Spike will never treat her right, and leaves. Her forward momentum, such as it was, in AtS s5, is reversed at the end.
Now this all feeds into the basic difference between the two shows - but it is interesting that people claim that AtS is a show more committed to the idea of redemption. Because basically - it essentially disproves redemption is possible. Angel fails when he decided his son was unsalvageable without rewriting him from the ground up - and permanently dooms everyone else in his life, including people like Lindsey who actually take their cues from Angel. (Lindsey is possessed with Angel - and I think him finding out that Angel took over W&H clues Lindsey in that Angel has given up on his epiphany, so Lindsey should give up on trying to change too. Lindsey, when he thinks Angel has a) turned a corner and b) respects him, in NFA, sees himself as a potential good guy. Lindsey is another classic narcissist - much less committed to goodness than Angel, but when Angel seems to think it's possible for Lindsey to be good, or acts like he does, Lindsey considers it. Like Angel, he is desperate for a place in the world, from W&H or Darla. That Angel so completely dismisses him is indicative of Angel's total lack of belief that Angel himself can ever change, IMO. It's not so much that I think he owes Lindsey better - well, he owes him better than executing him! - but mostly that he owes himself better.)
no subject
Date: 2014-10-12 05:20 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2014-10-08 03:17 pm (UTC)I've found that a lot of people who say Angel is more mature tend to ignore 4-7 of Buffy. It's continually relegated to 1-3 and while it's less dark than 4-7, I still wouldn't say AtS is more mature. It's more grim, sure, but grim doesn't equal mature, necessarily.
Also, I have to disagree that Angel was about balancing good/evil. If anything S5 turned that on its head, no? That was the point. Thinking they could use evil to do good blew up in their faces.
Meh. I think both are stories that end up in similar places but from opposite beginnings. Buffy was about learning to accept yourself. Angel was about getting over yourself. The coming of age aspect of Buffy pretty much ended in S3, IMO.
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Date: 2014-10-08 11:14 pm (UTC)Although I think both series ultimately was less about good/evil per se than order/chaos or power and authority. Coming of age was definitely part of it - dealing with power, and handling various types of authority - and what do we do when we become the very authority we've been battling against? Do we make the same mistakes? Is Angel any better than the Mayor, the Master or WRH? Is Buffy any better than Glory or Professor Walsh, Adam, the Watcher Council or the First Evil?
Given the circumstances - we are all capable of making difficult and evil choices, albeit depending on one's pov.
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Date: 2014-10-09 03:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-10 02:30 am (UTC)Would make life easier.
Writing the post above clarified something for me - or I finally figured out why I have become fannish over certain shows and not others. I have issues with authority figures - and power, and series that explore that issue in depth clearly resonate for me on a certain level that other series that don't explore it do.
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Date: 2014-10-10 02:34 am (UTC)Yeah, the "outsider who challenges power" theme is pretty compelling to me too. But BtVS also grabbed me emotionally through Buffy, Willow, and Spike, in ways that no other show has. Maybe Arya Stark, but that includes the book so it's not an equal comparison.
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Date: 2014-10-10 02:39 am (UTC)Nor for that matter does Game of Thrones.
So - I do have to connect with the characters on a deep level. And for it to sustain itself - there has to be a steady flow of new and interesting character development.
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Date: 2014-10-10 02:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-12 12:28 am (UTC)Arya is the ultimate realist - and she refuses to give in - that is also why I like BtVS. And why I like Wesley in Angel. They see through illusions and lies. The same can be said for Spike, but issues involving his love life are exempted.
They challenge power on so many levels.
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Date: 2014-10-12 01:09 am (UTC)And she doesn't quite see things that clearly.
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Date: 2014-10-10 05:52 pm (UTC)I didn't read the article, but I've read ones with the basic Angel >> BtVS premise before, and it leaves me a little cold. I love "Angel," I think it's a great show, and there are certain things it did better than "Buffy" -- but I just find "Buffy" more gripping and emotionally affecting, and I disagree with contentions that AtS dealt with philosophy and BtVS didn't, or that type of thing, or that AtS is necessarily more adult. As you say -- I think it's genre preference more than anything else.
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Date: 2014-10-10 06:34 pm (UTC)I don't really think you can say one was better than the other, necessarily. Ratings wise? Buffy did better and lasted longer. It also had a bigger effect on pop culture and the tv landscape - mainly because it was far more innovative and there really hasn't been anything on like it before or since.
A lot of tv scribes, from Shondra Rhimes to Russell T Davies, were highly influenced by Buffy and stated how it changed how they viewed television.
While Angel was a good series and I enjoyed it - it really doesn't stand out that much in television history. It didn't change how people viewed tv nor did it really influence anyone. The trope/genre it was in - was done before and done since.
That's the only thing I think can be quantified - on an objective scale.
Philosophy? A friend of mine has an entire site devoted to the philosophy of Buffy and Angel. Actually, I started actively discussing and writing about BTVS on a site entitled All Things Philosophical about BTVS and ATS. It's still up.
So, yeah, mainly a genre preference or personal preference. Unless you are discussing how it changed and influenced television or pop culture? Then hands down Buffy, Angel at the end of the day, from a purely pop culture standpoint, was just a really cool spin-off.
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Date: 2014-10-10 06:51 pm (UTC)I guess to continue on the theme, it's interesting how some ideas from one show get picked up in another -- for example, the way "The Wish" and "Birthday" tell a kind of similar story centred around Cordelia, of a world in which Cordelia is "the star" and in which she is no longer an adjunct to the main character's journey. However, "The Wish" very deliberately, and I think even subversively, cuts short the obvious narrative -- where Cordelia learns Buffy's importance and comes to terms with it, etc. -- completely short, killing the episode's apparent protagonist halfway through, and then going on to tell the "real" story, which is following through on the consequences of Buffy's absence on Buffy, her friends, the town, etc. Whereas "Birthday" is a more traditional story in which Cordelia recognizes her value to the cause over her value as a star. The latter is in some ways more traditionally satisfying as a narrative -- Cordelia has a character arc with a real beginning, middle, and end -- but it's also I'd argue less imaginative and in some ways easier on the character (Cordelia has to choose between being an amazing person because she's a Champion selected by the Powers That Be, or being an amazing person because she's a television star -- as opposed to "The Wish," where she has to choose between being a bit player in someone else's story or the star of a narrative that ends with her death).
I'm definitely aware of the ATPOBTVS site :) I've browsed there before.
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Date: 2014-10-11 02:57 am (UTC)Except, the two scenarios aren't really comparable. Because it's "Fred" not "Connor" that Angel lets die. In "Home" - Angel puts the team, the world, LA in great jeopardy to save Connor. He sacrifices everyone to save Connor - and doesn't find another way. He takes the deal with the devil. In fact it can be argued that Fred dies because Angel sacrificed Fred to save his son. A son who tried to kill a mall full of people - who was not an innocent young girl who never hurt anyone and bravely fought alongside her sister.
While in Buffy - Buffy realizes that she can save Dawn and the World, by sacrificing herself. She doesn't allow the world to end, and she doesn't allow Dawn to die. And she doesn't sacrifice her friends for Dawn. She only sacrifices herself.
When it has been other people - for example "Angel", who she has to kill in order to save the world in S2 - she kills him. Actually that's why she balks at killing Dawn and Spike. Angel - notably has never had to make that choice until Fred - and he didn't love Fred the way Buffy loved Angel. But in S7 - she states she'd do it - if there was no other way.
This is why Buffy was a hero and Angel was an anti-hero.
Buffy put others needs first, Angel put his own needs first. Both were consequentialists and idealists - in their own ways. The difference is in tone - Buffy is lighter, Angel is the dark side of both. Both saw the consequences, they just chose which ones mattered the most. Angel never sacrificed himself or his son, he sacrificed his team, which is why notably at the end of Angel - all the original members, his versions of Willow (Wes), Xander (Cordelia), Giles (Doyle), Anya (Gunn), Tara (Fred) - are either dead or soon to be dead - and mainly due to their involvement with him. That's the genre - in noir - the hero isn't a hero, he's an anti-hero, and everyone who champions him is dead by the end of his story. And unlike Buffy, Angel's idealism - was that he would shanshu that he would be seen as a champion. He isn't interested in saving the world - he's interested in being saved. He remains up until the very end deluded about who and what he is - WRH manages to pull a major con on him because of his idealist opinion of himself.
Buffy in contrast sees the good in others, and sees others as worth saving. Unlike Angel, she doesn't want or need to be the hero, she just steps up because she wants to make the world better.
Unlike Buffy, Angel can't share his power - because it is stolen. It's not his. His power comes from sucking life from the living. He's has superpowers purely through being a vampire. And when he's given the opportunity to be human, to no longer be a vampire - he squanders it - believing that if he did so - he'd destroy Buffy? Please.
The writer's took the theme a step further with Cordelia in both The Wish and Birthday. Note that Cordy needs to be the lead actor, important, the center of attention in both episodes. In one - she's killed off early - and the focus shifts to everyone else - not even Buffy is the lead in that episode. No the main characters or heroes are actually Giles and OZ. It's not Buffy being absent from their lives, so much as Buffy and their interaction in Sunnydale being what changed. Because when Buffy pops up - she's bitter, angry, and useless.
Everyone dies. While in Birthday - which is a delusion that Skip and the PTB feed Cordy - using Cordy's insecurities to build on it, her deepest wishes and desires. Cordy needs to be important, integral to the team, a superhero. She needs to be a star. She was always Queen Bee. Cordy is the classic narcissist - she has no inner self, all of her self esteem comes from what others think of her, how they view her, how important she is to them. It's no wonder she eventually becomes possessed by a Goddess who reflects everything she most desires.
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Date: 2014-10-11 04:28 am (UTC)I think part of the reason Buffy does kill Angel, though -- is that she recognizes on some level that Angel has some responsibility for Acathla. Dawn has no responsibility for Glory. And while Buffy on some level keep Angel's souled and unsouled actions separate, I think she doesn't entirely -- if she could completely separate the two sides of Angel, then she wouldn't let Angelus "get" to her. If Angelus has some Angel inside him, then Angel has some Angelus inside him.
Part of the way I read "Becoming" also comes down to how real, or not-real, Angel is as a person. Angel is a vampire. He's already dead. He doesn't cast reflection. And indeed, if you look at seasons one and two, we don't get much of a sense of Angel's inner life -- perhaps because, for all intents and purposes, he doesn't have one. Out-of-story, Angel is made up of fantasy tropes, of Buffy's fantasy, in order to do the horror tale that they tell in season two. In-story, Angel's only way of interacting with humans is to do what he did as a vampire -- to show them what they wanted to see in order to entrap them. I don't think Angel is trying to entrap Buffy before his soul loss -- I think that he is consciously trying to do what he tells Whistler he wants to do in the "Becoming" flashbacks: he wants to help her. But Angel, as we know, has been away from humans for decades. So he presents himself as fantasy boyfriend because I think he intuits that's the role that Buffy "wants," to get close. Angel, as a human -- died with Liam, or at least, that is one of the possible interpretations of the story. And in that interpretation, Buffy is not killing an innocent person.
It's a very good point that Angel does basically sign the world away for Connor -- and that is the true equivalent. Meanwhile, what Angel does isn't even the same as "saving" his son. He not only "saves" his son's life. As we see, Angel can get close to Connor, and manages to "defeat" him in combat. If Angel got his whole team with him, I think it's very likely he would be able to subdue Connor, bring him back to the hotel, lock him up in the cage used for Angel earlier in the season still in the Hyperion basement, and try to talk to him. This could be done without selling his team's futures away. But no -- he's already given up on Connor as he is. Which is, I think, because Angel doesn't fundamentally believe in his own redemption. Angel had to have someone magically transform his life for him to get where he is, and even that was apparently not enough -- so he magically transforms Connor, and sacrifices his team in the process.
Now, Buffy risks several lives to trade the Box of Gavrok back for Willow -- which has a fairly close equivalent, I think, in Angel agreeing to release Billy for W&H in order to get Cordy back. I don't think Buffy would truly, absolutely let hundreds of people die to get Willow back -- but she is unwilling to follow Wesley's harsher code and give up Willow for a certain victory over the Mayor as opposed to the possibility of defeat (and they do, after all, defeat the Mayor).
One thing that is pitiable about Angel, when compared to Buffy, is that Angel really wants to be a hero partly because...he has done so many terrible things. The only way to make up for what he's done is to do something big -- to work for one day where he's "redeemed." Buffy's cosmic score card is mostly empty when she shows up in Sunnydale -- with not many pluses and minuses -- and she is able to take things one day at a time more easily. Angel's need to prove himself, to be a hero, is his way of attempting to make up for a long and bloody past which *nothing* can make up for, at all. He can't make up for his past, but he also finds it very difficult to ignore it -- and so he hangs his hopes on the idea that he might some day be able to. I think both shows suggest that being a hero is something that one can't achieve by *trying* to be one; the best one can do is to try to be one's best self, to try to do more good than bad on any given day.
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Date: 2014-10-11 04:29 am (UTC)And definitely -- knowing that "Birthday" was a setup from Skip changes the tenor of the episode a great deal. I sort of read it on two levels (well, at least two levels!) because it actually sort of works when read straight-up -- as a traditional story of choosing what is difficult and right over what is easy. But this is just the first layer -- the layer that is designed to appeal to and trick Cordelia. It's pretty ingenious as a trick for both Cordelia and audience -- because dig deeper, and Skip is offering her a false dichotomy, of a life in which Cordy is the star of a chintzy TV show, who has lots of fans -- or the star in a cosmic battle of good vs. evil, in which she is truly the only woman in all the world who can handle the terrible burden of the visions dropped on her. The same kind of false dichotomy is dropped on Cordelia in the finale -- in which Skip "makes her" choose between becoming the leading lady in the personal drama of Angel's life, or the leading lady in the world drama, the key player in good vs. evil.
Part of what is interesting about it -- is that it really suggests that there are no circumstances in which a person should be set so high above others. It goes in direct contrast to Buffy refusing more power in "Get it Done." I don't think it's as simple as that Buffy is selfless and Cordelia is selfish -- because we are reminded that Buffy could have been like Cordelia, and more to the point, I think Cordelia really is very strongly motivated, by s3 or so, to do good. Rather, it questions the idea at all that any human, even with the best of intentions, can truly be a "Higher Power." Or perhaps there are humans who have achieved some degree of enlightenment -- but heroes are basically people like us. That is the realization Buffy eventually comes to -- that being "better" than other people hurts both her and others, and that the solution is to bring other people to her level.
I think Cordelia's desire to help the helpless is pretty genuine -- and while there are definitely narcissistic elements in her martyrdom, re: the visions, her staying with the visions is still a pretty remarkable willingness to endure incredible pain for what she thinks is right. She trades in her old values of glamour and the like. The problem is, she picks up a different kind of glamour, of being a Champion -- which is part of Angel's problem as well. I think the two reinforce each other's bad habits to a degree.
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Date: 2014-10-15 04:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-18 02:34 am (UTC)MASH - redefined the situation comedy
Doctor Who - redefined science fiction serial
Star Trek - redefined science fiction serial
Gunsmoke - redefined westerns
Hill Street Blues - redefined the cop show
Prime Suspect - redefined the procedural
St. Elsewhere - redefined the hospital/medical serial
The Good Wife - redefined the legal procedural
The Sopranoes - redefined the anti-hero serial