BTVS redux
Jun. 26th, 2005 09:24 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatHaven't written about this in a long time but something I was reading on livejournal late last night started rolling about in my brain. And I realized a few things this morning, which granted may seem obvious to the objective outsider, but not so obvious to me.
It was something said offhand in a recent fanfic discussion on livejournal - about how kinky it was to subvert the canonical Buffy/Spike relationship so that Spike was in control and Buffy was submissive. This threw me for a loop. How is this kinky, I thought? First off in about 99% of the romances and novels published in our entire history, the male is the one in control and the female is the submissive party - he's stronger than she is. We live in a patriarchial society, our presidents, leaders, rulers are men, with a few exceptions here and there. The accepted position for sex is the missionary pose - ie. the guy on top and the girl on the bottom. Also men are supposed to be the ones to initiate sex, it's considered kinky when they don't. And it is an accepted fact that a man can force a woman not the other way around. Men beat women into submission. The old cliche is the guy who will sleep with a girl then leave her the next morning, wondering if he'll ever call. In most S&M scenarios that have been written, the girl is the masochist or the submissive in the relationship. It's rarely the other way around. That's the traditional/conservative approach. It's certainly the way the romance writers write it and how you'll see it in erotica. It is rare to see the opposite. The kink is when we switch the two roles. Kinky is when the guy is being whipped by the girl and likes it.
What was interesting about Buffy the Vampire Slayer and one of the reasons I became obsessed with it in the later seasons, was how it tried to subvert this traditional view. Note I mention in later seasons, because to start out with, BTVS was pretty conventional in certain ways. The Buffy/Angel relationship certainly was. Nothing kinky or subversive about that. Angel was in control most of the time - he'd leave Buffy wanting more. He'd die, leaving Buffy to grieve his loss, if they had sex, which they did once, he was always on top, you never saw a woman riding old Angel. And he'd decide when to leave. Leaving her the next morning with not much more than a note. In fact all of Buffy's boyfriends, outside of Spike, were more or less written in the classic conventional mode. Riley - again always on top, in fact the reason Riley left Buffy was that he couldn't stay on top, when he became weaker than Buffy and their roles switched he lost interest and went off with the military. His relationship with the vamp whores shows that aspect of him - letting them take a bit, then pushing them roughly away, leaving them for his true girl friend. When the girl-friend calls him on it, he doesn't give her the chance to dump him, he dumps her instead and takes off with his military pals. Parker - again, the guy leaves the girl wanting more, he dumps her for his next conquest, seeing her as little more than a distraction.
But there's a subversion here, isn't there? Didn't the writers make Buffy stronger than the guys? Riley and Angel were the damsels not Buffy? Buffy had to save them, true. But it's not that subversive - since in traditional gothic romances and fairy tales - we often have a woman on a quest to save a man from the dark side of himself or from some woman who will entrap him. The misunderstood guy under the curse of the wicked witch. Everything from the Snow Queen to Rebecca explores this theme. Most gothic romances usually do. Actually I can't think of many that don't. So not very subversive or kinky.
Even Angel's curse isn't that kinky. It's a traditional device that keeps him and the heroine from ever being together. He makes love to her and experiences happiness in her arms, and whammo he's evil and leaves her miserable. (In other words he leaves satisfied, while she's wanting more and grieving his loss.) It's not until Angel left to do his own series that curse became somewhat interesting, up until that point it was more or less a plot device.
No, they didn't start getting a little kinky and subversive until they introduced Spike. At first Spike was written conventionally. Hot, seductive, a sexual predator. He was clearly in control - the lovely Drusilla who hung on his arm childlike. A doll that he supported. Spike was the brawn and the brains of this outfit. Dru could barely stand upright or speak in anything outside of rhymes and couplets. He was also the type who women fell over themselves to get close to. Bad girl Sheila went to him like a magnet. He seduced you, took his fill, then left you the next morning wanting more. And if the girl didn't succumb, he'd rape her. Even slayers feared Spike, since no woman could out-fight him. Always going home to his mother or the one woman in the world he'd protect. Very conventional character - to start.
Then they subverted it - each time Spike tried to fight Buffy, she won, she out-fought him, out-maneuvered him, out-quipped him. He'd met a woman who was not only his equal but possibly his better. The man who was used to loving and leaving them wanting more - got kicked in the balls. And then there was Dru who did the same thing to him, left him, so he grabbed control back and did the truce with Buffy. Got her back. For a while the writers and the audience believed that was how the story would go - the conventional route, Spike and Dru - Spike in control of Dru and Dru fighting him. But Juliet Landau couldn't do Lover's Walk and Juliet Landau wasn't available to reprise the character in Season 4, only Marsters was. So...the writers did something unconventional, kinky even. Buffy got to be on top and Spike got to be on the bottom. The guy who was used to controlling women since becoming a vampire, who was on top, who was the seducer - got seduced, fell for his enemy, got manipulated into helping the cause. Instead of Spike leaving Buffy wanting more, Buffy left Spike wanting more. Instead of Spike controlling their relationship, Buffy did. Instead of the guy dumping the girl, the girl dumped the guy. Instead of the guy leaving the girl in the dank-womblike cavern and walking up into the sunlight, the girl left the guy in the dank-like cavern. Instead of the guy beating the girl into submission, the girl beat the guy into submission. Instead of the guy initiating sex - the girl did. Instead of the guy leaping on the girl and riding her, the girl launched herself at him and rid him. Smashed was the first time a woman initiated violent sex on network TV. A woman rode on top. In most shows, we see the girl's skin, her heaving chest, and naked limbs - here it was all Spike. The invisibility fantasy is usually the male's - usually the guy becomes invisible and goes and has his way with the girl, rapes her even (see Hollow Man, or any number of other comedies and dramas playing with the idea). Here Buffy becomes invisible and goes and takes advantage of Spike - being naughty with the boy from the wrong side of the tracks. Leaving him feeling used. Rumor has it that the writers played with the idea of taking this a step further and have Buffy try to rape Spike, humilate him, but they couldn't make it work and realized it may be too subversive for the viewer to buy it. Also it was unlikely the audience would believe Spike needed the soul after this happened. (They were right. I have however, seen people play with the idea in fanfic. Herself did in Spike and the Ambiguities, as did two other writers in Hard Candy. They all did stop short though, didn't go all the way - allowed it to still have that conventional twinge. Spike would get control in the next chapter.)
Complete role reversial and it enthralled me. I'd never seen anyone do this.
What fascinated me even more was people's reactions to it. There were folks out there who despised it, thought it was horrid, wanted to go back to the Angel/Buffy or Buffy/Riley relationships. Others wanted Spike to go back to being evil, to being the guy in control. While still others wanted more of Buffy keeping Spike on the leash. What was going in the show was a unique gender role reversial and what was going on in the minds of the audience was a struggle with how to deal with that reversial, which happened on screen sexually, emotionally, and physically.
Seeing Red - the episode in which Spike loses all control and attempts to rape Buffy threw people - wait, they thought, isn't this a role reversial? Why go back to convention? I thought Buffy was the one physically in charge here? Well, she still is - if you watch the scene carefully - Spike doesn't get anything, except humilated and shown a reflection of himself that literally sends him careening off the edge of sanity. Because only an insane vampire would seek a soul. Buffy wins in Seeing Red. She not only is the physical victor pushing him off her, but also the emotional one - telling him why they can't be together, why it doesn't work - because there is no trust, their relationship is all about fighting for control, who gets to be on top and the reason he is so obsessed is time and again, she wins. She's better than he is. Her victory is that he goes to get a soul, which he does not so much out of love for her, although that is definitely part of it, but to show her up, to prove that he is as good as she is. Instead of the woman trying to prove herself to the man, showing the man she has balls, that she can drive the company, that she is as good if not better than he is, we have the man doing it. The man showing her that he can get and have a soul. In some religious societies - people believed woman were beneath men, because only men had souls. Here we have the reversal.
What fascinates me about many of the fanfics I've read regarding the relationship, is how many writers have attempted to switch it back to the status quo. Often putting Spike in control of the relationship. They can't handle him in the submissive role - yet that in a nutshell was what made the show and the character so fascinating. He didn't want to be the pawn of women, he didn't see himself as their pawn, yet that in effect was what he always became. Drusilla turns him into a demon, Drusilla then dumps him after 120 years, then Professor Walsh neuters him, Harmony leaves him (note it is Harmony who up and leaves Spike and kicks Spike out, not the other way around), then Buffy beats him up and makes him her follower. She's the one who outthinks him. When he gets his soul - the First takes the form of Buffy and Dru to whip him into shape, not Angelus or the Master. Using a song his sick mother used to sing to control him. From Drusilla to the First Evil, with Buffy in between, what was most interesting about the Spike character was how controlled and beaten into submission he was by the women in his life. That is the subversion, the kink, the weird twist in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And what makes the show in my humble opinion stand out from all the other tv shows I've seen. What is equally interesting is how that subversion continues to haunt and irritate the fanbase that adored the show and the relationship.
It was something said offhand in a recent fanfic discussion on livejournal - about how kinky it was to subvert the canonical Buffy/Spike relationship so that Spike was in control and Buffy was submissive. This threw me for a loop. How is this kinky, I thought? First off in about 99% of the romances and novels published in our entire history, the male is the one in control and the female is the submissive party - he's stronger than she is. We live in a patriarchial society, our presidents, leaders, rulers are men, with a few exceptions here and there. The accepted position for sex is the missionary pose - ie. the guy on top and the girl on the bottom. Also men are supposed to be the ones to initiate sex, it's considered kinky when they don't. And it is an accepted fact that a man can force a woman not the other way around. Men beat women into submission. The old cliche is the guy who will sleep with a girl then leave her the next morning, wondering if he'll ever call. In most S&M scenarios that have been written, the girl is the masochist or the submissive in the relationship. It's rarely the other way around. That's the traditional/conservative approach. It's certainly the way the romance writers write it and how you'll see it in erotica. It is rare to see the opposite. The kink is when we switch the two roles. Kinky is when the guy is being whipped by the girl and likes it.
What was interesting about Buffy the Vampire Slayer and one of the reasons I became obsessed with it in the later seasons, was how it tried to subvert this traditional view. Note I mention in later seasons, because to start out with, BTVS was pretty conventional in certain ways. The Buffy/Angel relationship certainly was. Nothing kinky or subversive about that. Angel was in control most of the time - he'd leave Buffy wanting more. He'd die, leaving Buffy to grieve his loss, if they had sex, which they did once, he was always on top, you never saw a woman riding old Angel. And he'd decide when to leave. Leaving her the next morning with not much more than a note. In fact all of Buffy's boyfriends, outside of Spike, were more or less written in the classic conventional mode. Riley - again always on top, in fact the reason Riley left Buffy was that he couldn't stay on top, when he became weaker than Buffy and their roles switched he lost interest and went off with the military. His relationship with the vamp whores shows that aspect of him - letting them take a bit, then pushing them roughly away, leaving them for his true girl friend. When the girl-friend calls him on it, he doesn't give her the chance to dump him, he dumps her instead and takes off with his military pals. Parker - again, the guy leaves the girl wanting more, he dumps her for his next conquest, seeing her as little more than a distraction.
But there's a subversion here, isn't there? Didn't the writers make Buffy stronger than the guys? Riley and Angel were the damsels not Buffy? Buffy had to save them, true. But it's not that subversive - since in traditional gothic romances and fairy tales - we often have a woman on a quest to save a man from the dark side of himself or from some woman who will entrap him. The misunderstood guy under the curse of the wicked witch. Everything from the Snow Queen to Rebecca explores this theme. Most gothic romances usually do. Actually I can't think of many that don't. So not very subversive or kinky.
Even Angel's curse isn't that kinky. It's a traditional device that keeps him and the heroine from ever being together. He makes love to her and experiences happiness in her arms, and whammo he's evil and leaves her miserable. (In other words he leaves satisfied, while she's wanting more and grieving his loss.) It's not until Angel left to do his own series that curse became somewhat interesting, up until that point it was more or less a plot device.
No, they didn't start getting a little kinky and subversive until they introduced Spike. At first Spike was written conventionally. Hot, seductive, a sexual predator. He was clearly in control - the lovely Drusilla who hung on his arm childlike. A doll that he supported. Spike was the brawn and the brains of this outfit. Dru could barely stand upright or speak in anything outside of rhymes and couplets. He was also the type who women fell over themselves to get close to. Bad girl Sheila went to him like a magnet. He seduced you, took his fill, then left you the next morning wanting more. And if the girl didn't succumb, he'd rape her. Even slayers feared Spike, since no woman could out-fight him. Always going home to his mother or the one woman in the world he'd protect. Very conventional character - to start.
Then they subverted it - each time Spike tried to fight Buffy, she won, she out-fought him, out-maneuvered him, out-quipped him. He'd met a woman who was not only his equal but possibly his better. The man who was used to loving and leaving them wanting more - got kicked in the balls. And then there was Dru who did the same thing to him, left him, so he grabbed control back and did the truce with Buffy. Got her back. For a while the writers and the audience believed that was how the story would go - the conventional route, Spike and Dru - Spike in control of Dru and Dru fighting him. But Juliet Landau couldn't do Lover's Walk and Juliet Landau wasn't available to reprise the character in Season 4, only Marsters was. So...the writers did something unconventional, kinky even. Buffy got to be on top and Spike got to be on the bottom. The guy who was used to controlling women since becoming a vampire, who was on top, who was the seducer - got seduced, fell for his enemy, got manipulated into helping the cause. Instead of Spike leaving Buffy wanting more, Buffy left Spike wanting more. Instead of Spike controlling their relationship, Buffy did. Instead of the guy dumping the girl, the girl dumped the guy. Instead of the guy leaving the girl in the dank-womblike cavern and walking up into the sunlight, the girl left the guy in the dank-like cavern. Instead of the guy beating the girl into submission, the girl beat the guy into submission. Instead of the guy initiating sex - the girl did. Instead of the guy leaping on the girl and riding her, the girl launched herself at him and rid him. Smashed was the first time a woman initiated violent sex on network TV. A woman rode on top. In most shows, we see the girl's skin, her heaving chest, and naked limbs - here it was all Spike. The invisibility fantasy is usually the male's - usually the guy becomes invisible and goes and has his way with the girl, rapes her even (see Hollow Man, or any number of other comedies and dramas playing with the idea). Here Buffy becomes invisible and goes and takes advantage of Spike - being naughty with the boy from the wrong side of the tracks. Leaving him feeling used. Rumor has it that the writers played with the idea of taking this a step further and have Buffy try to rape Spike, humilate him, but they couldn't make it work and realized it may be too subversive for the viewer to buy it. Also it was unlikely the audience would believe Spike needed the soul after this happened. (They were right. I have however, seen people play with the idea in fanfic. Herself did in Spike and the Ambiguities, as did two other writers in Hard Candy. They all did stop short though, didn't go all the way - allowed it to still have that conventional twinge. Spike would get control in the next chapter.)
Complete role reversial and it enthralled me. I'd never seen anyone do this.
What fascinated me even more was people's reactions to it. There were folks out there who despised it, thought it was horrid, wanted to go back to the Angel/Buffy or Buffy/Riley relationships. Others wanted Spike to go back to being evil, to being the guy in control. While still others wanted more of Buffy keeping Spike on the leash. What was going in the show was a unique gender role reversial and what was going on in the minds of the audience was a struggle with how to deal with that reversial, which happened on screen sexually, emotionally, and physically.
Seeing Red - the episode in which Spike loses all control and attempts to rape Buffy threw people - wait, they thought, isn't this a role reversial? Why go back to convention? I thought Buffy was the one physically in charge here? Well, she still is - if you watch the scene carefully - Spike doesn't get anything, except humilated and shown a reflection of himself that literally sends him careening off the edge of sanity. Because only an insane vampire would seek a soul. Buffy wins in Seeing Red. She not only is the physical victor pushing him off her, but also the emotional one - telling him why they can't be together, why it doesn't work - because there is no trust, their relationship is all about fighting for control, who gets to be on top and the reason he is so obsessed is time and again, she wins. She's better than he is. Her victory is that he goes to get a soul, which he does not so much out of love for her, although that is definitely part of it, but to show her up, to prove that he is as good as she is. Instead of the woman trying to prove herself to the man, showing the man she has balls, that she can drive the company, that she is as good if not better than he is, we have the man doing it. The man showing her that he can get and have a soul. In some religious societies - people believed woman were beneath men, because only men had souls. Here we have the reversal.
What fascinates me about many of the fanfics I've read regarding the relationship, is how many writers have attempted to switch it back to the status quo. Often putting Spike in control of the relationship. They can't handle him in the submissive role - yet that in a nutshell was what made the show and the character so fascinating. He didn't want to be the pawn of women, he didn't see himself as their pawn, yet that in effect was what he always became. Drusilla turns him into a demon, Drusilla then dumps him after 120 years, then Professor Walsh neuters him, Harmony leaves him (note it is Harmony who up and leaves Spike and kicks Spike out, not the other way around), then Buffy beats him up and makes him her follower. She's the one who outthinks him. When he gets his soul - the First takes the form of Buffy and Dru to whip him into shape, not Angelus or the Master. Using a song his sick mother used to sing to control him. From Drusilla to the First Evil, with Buffy in between, what was most interesting about the Spike character was how controlled and beaten into submission he was by the women in his life. That is the subversion, the kink, the weird twist in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And what makes the show in my humble opinion stand out from all the other tv shows I've seen. What is equally interesting is how that subversion continues to haunt and irritate the fanbase that adored the show and the relationship.
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no subject
Date: 2005-06-26 09:30 am (UTC)I agree about the way you read "Seeing Red" and I agree when you siad that putitng Spike incharge in fanfic (I guess you thought of Herself's last one) wasn't subversive.
But...
First Angel/Buffy, you're right it's very conventional except that there's a kink revealed in "Becoming" and already there through episodes like "Bad Eggs"...If you see the relationship from Angel's POV it's very Lolita-esque. The scene with the lollypop cannot call Kubrick's movie to mind. Angel is attracted to a girl, to her purity/innocence, just like Angelus was attracted to pure Drusilla and sired her so she became a forever child playing with dolls!
Angel still carries the same kink as his soulless self...
As for Spike you said:
each time Spike tried to fight Buffy, she won, she out-fought him, out-maneuvered him, out-quipped him.
Is that sure?
I mean he certainly beat her in "School Hard", but in season 5 he beat her again in "Out of my Mind", if the chip hasn't kicked in Buffy woud have probably lost.
And when they started having sex, we've seen more sceens when Buffy being in charge it's true, mostly because she initiated the sex every time, but the writers also suggested that Spike could be the leader (in DT the handcuff, the balcony scene). I do think that their relationship in season 6 is more complicated than Buffy being on the top. I would say that they are rather equal and equally screwed up at the time hence the unhealthy romance.
For me Spuffy is not a sub/dom relationship at all, they don't "dom/sub to" each other. Spuffy showed both characters struggling with themselves, experimenting a personal journey through an affair:
Spike being a love's bitch, a fool sentimental and "not complaining" as he pointed out, because he's led by his love, but at the same time wanting more (he chased Buffy away in "Gone") precisely because he's in love. And Buffy wanting to feel and not wanting to feel at the same time, falling in love with Spike and rejecting his love at once, thinking that she must be good and thinking that she is not... Whe she's beating him to a pulp in DT, she isn't beating him into submission, it's obviously all about herself, because she thinks she's wong, because she thinks she killed until she realized that he is there and all bruised, and then she's horrified.
Compare "Smashed" and season 6 Spuffy to Faith/Xander sex in season 3...it's quite different. Faith was really on the top then.
In the end that relationship allowed them to realize something. Buffy that she can feel, live again, tries to connect with the others, Spike that he needs to be get his free will.
the First takes the form of Buffy and Dru to whip him into shape, not Angelus or the Master. Using a song his sick mother used to sing to control him. From Drusilla to the First Evil, with Buffy in between, what was most interesting about the Spike character was how controlled and beaten into submission he was by the women in his life.
Women he loved, and only women he loved...He isn't anyone's bitch, he's Love's bitch.
As for the First I have that theory that it isn't a "true " character but only a metaphor of the inner fears/evil within the characters, and season 7 told the inner struggle they were going through (well Caleb being the BB gave in and embraced his evil side), but I have driven many posters crazy with that reading on the C&S so I shall stay quiet!
no subject
Date: 2005-06-26 09:33 am (UTC)*hides her head into the sand*
no subject
Date: 2005-06-26 10:15 am (UTC)It's the nature of the beast.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-26 10:33 am (UTC)Older men marry younger women all the time. Take Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise. Or Charlie Chaplin and the reason he had to leave Hollywood.
Or even the fact that the Lolita bit has been written in numerous fantasies - heck the George RR Martin novel I'm reading now has 14 year old girls marrying old men. Does it squick me? Sure. Is it wrong?
I think so. But doesn't make it subversive. If anything it's pretty damn conventional and been done to the point of overkill.
What was kinky was Cordy and Conner, actually. When Connor fell for Cordelia. What was fascinating was the fans who adored Buffy and Angel together could not deal with Cordy and Connor nor could they handle Buffy seducing RJ in HIM. The older woman with the younger guy, the adolescent? Shudder.
Did Spike win in those episodes you mention? Joyce got the upper hand with him in School Hard. He was bested by a woman. And in Out of Mind, Professor Walsh had the upper hand in neutering him with the chip, making it impossible for him to kill. Both instances, bested by the weaker sex.
I'm not saying he's not love's bitch, but by the same token, that very factor is subversive. Usually the girl is portrayed as love's bitch. The Lilah/Wesely relationship was the conventional version.
The Spike/Buffy was the subversive one.
And yes, I'd agree she had complicated reasons for beating him up in Dead Things. But that wasn't the only time Buffy punched Spike, if you recall. She also punched him in Smashed, Real Me, most of the episodes in season 5, good portion of Season 4.
And while it was hinted at that Spike got to do a little of the handcuffing and domination in Dead Things - Buffy remained in Control throughout. Making it clear she could push him off at any time. He was the needy one asking for conversation in the episode. He was the one upset that she was leaving. He was the seducer on the balcony, with the seductive voice...and he was the one waiting in his crypt for her to come and dashing after her when she didn't. Also in the dream sequence, he's the one we see in the handcuffs, not the other way around.
It's not necessarily one way, but the focus is pushed towards Buffy being in control, the emphasis is on that. And that is subversive.
Faith/Xander isn't really that subversive - because Xander is the good guy and Faith is the villain, who if you remember the sequence gets overpowered by Angel. It's Angel who saves Xander, pulls Faith off him and takes her hostage. And Faith's seduction of Xander is played very similarily to most noir or gothic seductions of the good man by the bad woman. Lilah and Wes - same thing. And the sex symbol in the deal - Faith.
Now let's go to Smashed/Wrecked and Gone. Whose the villian here? Spike. Whose in control? Buffy. Who do we see with no clothes on?
Spike. Who leaves the other in the lurch? Buffy. Who is the hero?
Buffy. Smashed/Wrecked/Gone is subversive. Buffy is no Faith, she's not portrayed as the villain or the bad girl. And Spike is oddly the fatale here - which is also subversive.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-26 11:44 am (UTC)First off I didn't mean that Faith/Xander was subversive, only that it was more of a sub/dom sex relationship than spuffy and I wasn't speaking of the scene when she chained him up but the one in "The Zeppo" when he lost his virginity while Faith wasn't a villain yet. I should have made it clearer, my bad.
As for School Hard and OFMM, of course Spike lost (frustration is a recurring theme in his journey), because otherwise there would no longer be a show called BTVS but Buffy didn't beat him...which showed that *she* didn't necessarily overcome him. I was only arguing about the relationship between those too. As he said, ashamed, in "Something Blue", it's Buffy's team that always made his plans fail not Buffy herself.
BTW I think that "Fool For Love" pointed that they could switch roles easily. In that episode Spike has been metaphorically "on the top" many times (hurting her in the Bronze, telling her a certain truth about his past, blocking her while she's weaponless by the pool table, telling her about her death wish...) but Buffy was too (thanks to her money first, then during the fight in the alley or when she said he was beneath her and made him cry) and they both has been put at a disadvantage. But the ending scene is meaningful...they end up on the same level, sitting side by side, equal! Oh I so love that episode!!!!
As for A/B...well I do disagree with your comparisons. IMO the subtext isn't hinting at a relationship between a man and a younger woman, but at a man obsessed with little girls. When Angel stared at Buffy in L.A she isn't showed at all as a woman. I don't think he even really saw her as a woman btw hence his bizarre and so-far-from-reality idea of the Spuffy sex during his hallucinations in Ats season 5.
Lolita is only 12 in Nabokov's novel and once she becomes a woman she isn't very interesting anymore. Of course the true kink might be that Lolita isn't that innocent and actually kinda manipulated the hero...Buffy isn't very manipulative with Angel though.
I think that Cordy/Connor was felt as kinky because she took care of baby Connor so there was a connotation of incest...very Oedip-like given to Angel's feeling for Cordy!
Not sure that Buffy was in control in the balcony scene...she says "don't" and she didn't choose to have that intercourse, she submitted to the seducer.
Concerning the nudity during season 6, I think it's more a matter of SMG's contract and JM's sex-appeal LOL
But "Dirty Girl" did show Spike spread as an odalisque, when Faith is going downstair. He's really the forbidden fruit in that scene, kinda like "La Maja Desnuda" and that's certainly subversive!
But I'm playing the advocate of the devil for the pleasure of arguing (and in order to avoid my marking!). Of course Buffy being The Slayer is the strong one, and yes she punched Spike a lot(well he punched back as soon as he could, in Smashed), and yes Joss wanted to put women "on the top" in his show, and yes her wild sexuality was a way to show it...it's just that reading season 6 in a sub/dom way isn't satisfying for me. But I would agree that the zipper sound in Smashed and Buffy literally taking Spike in was quite subversive, much more than the cut scene on the floor (I really don't understand American censorship).
Now I'm thinking of that scene when she left Riley in bed and was running in the night, obviously to get off on slaying baddies! Rather subversive too...
Well thanks for giving me the opportunity to discuss Buffy again. I missed that.
I have 5 papers left...grrrrr
(no subject)
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Date: 2005-06-26 10:30 am (UTC)For me the most subversive aspect of that relationship wasn’t the gender reversal per se but the way it allowed them to take actions that might normally be thought of as part of aggressive male behaviour (most obviously the physical abuse and the attempted rape) and give them motivations, which while not specifically female, arose from feelings that many women (or non-aggressive men) might recognise. Depression and self-loathing with the physical abuse and romantic desperation in the case of the rape. It really made you wonder if it were just lack of physical strength that would stop you from acting the same way. I found it both deeply disturbing and extremely thought provoking in the way it attempted to subvert audience sympathies.
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Date: 2005-06-26 10:44 am (UTC)Disagree on B/A - the example you give can be found in most fairy tales and stories. It's not subversive and actually fairly conventional. Buffy/Angel was a conventional romance. That's not saying it was a bad one, just that it was no different than most of the romances I've seen in many soap operas, romance novels, gothic horror novels, etc. Nothing subversive or innovative there. Unsettling sure. But still fairly conventional. Which may be why it was unsettling. The mere fact that the woman will take back the abusive man with the view she can change him, she can't of course, and he either leaves to save her from himself, she kicks him out, or he kills her - which was the theme of Beauty and the Beasts and the endings of B/A. Angel trying to kill her, Buffy kicking him out, Angel eventually leaving for own good. Predictable and fairly conventional.
B/S pushed at the envelope more. The Seeing Red episode and the paragraph you wrote on it above is evidence of that. Showing the complexity of sexual assault, the psychological motivators, how things can get out of control and what can result. The subversion is that the rapist did not become a full-fledged villain like many fans hoped or believed he would (a la get the chip removed and become the big bad - getting his just deserts at the end by being staked), instead he tried to redeem himself, better himself, and got a conscience. The subversion of the conventional rape story. One many people online could not handle.
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Date: 2005-06-26 10:52 am (UTC)Augh. Didn't say that right, trying again. Before some one comes along and blasts me for improper syntax. What I meant was that Angel by being with Buffy is in a way killing her, she almost dies to save him, when she loves him physically he becomes evil and almost kills her - the classic cool guy who is an abusive monster underneath. The subversion in the romance may be that ME refuses to give the lover's a way out, Angel doesn't get saved. There's no cure. They don't find a way to live happily ever after like Rebecca and her Mr. De Winter or the girl and boy in the Snow Queen. Instead they go for the noir ending, where girl loses guy for her own good. But still not very subversive - just the male view of how it should end rather than the female. The noir, pulp male romance, where even a good woman can't save you. Because that would just be unmanly.
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Date: 2005-07-05 07:33 pm (UTC)It's also, judging by most studies (and real life experiences) I'm familiar with, largely a subversion of reality as well. Sometimes, those conventions exist for a reason - and inasmuch as its lauditory to attempt subversions in general - it's also quite unsettling to see them try that subversion over the specific subject matter attempted.
I'm not sure it's really a subversion that people should "handle" so easily. In my case, it's certainly something that's very difficult to deal with. On top of that reluctance, the manner in which the storyline was executed in S7 was such that gave me continued discomfort.
In a sense, there's a point where it works for some viewers and doesn't for others, and eventually, I can get with that. I just felt like, given the nature of this particular subversion - it really needed to be handled with great care. And for my tastes, it wasn't, and it wasn't done well enough. And inasmuch as I still periodically run across (a not entirely small contingent) commenters who still can't understand why Spike would need a soul, or cannot contemplate how the sexual assault in SR was consistent with his prior actions (both before and during S6) I remain troubled by the what ME attempted here.
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Date: 2005-06-26 03:24 pm (UTC)And then, instead of taking her part of the responsibility, blamed it all on him and made him out to be the bad guy.
See, I loved Buffy, she was my fave char and they turned her into a monster, while she was supposed to be the good guy. Spike, who had no soul, no moral compass, behaved better than Buffy did, because he at least took up responsibility for his actions. I like my heroes to admit their faults and better themselves, Buffy just ignored her faults and blamed it all on Spike.
It's gotten so bad that I can't accept or like the Buffy of s7, unless she truly loved Spike, at least at the end of it, cause the idea of her using him once again is too horrendous to imagine and turns a char that used to be my favorite into someone I can only despise.
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Date: 2005-06-26 03:37 pm (UTC)On the other hand vulnerability is our entry point to understanding characters - we all know pain after all. To lose that is to render a character unknowable. I think ME was trying to play with some of those assumptions about power and invulnerability, and whether need is a weakness, but got all mucked up in the S7 execution.
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Date: 2005-06-27 06:00 pm (UTC)It's not about empowerment or even subversion because look at how much of this is played depending on the audience very definitely seeing it as Buffy as the "weaker sex"? If she had been male the beating in Dead Things would NOT have been excused as "she was in a bad place" with no need of her EVER making ANY restitution. Nor would she simultaneously be given the power position while we were supposed to see her as the helpless, powerless victim in the bathroom scene. Both of those incidents were meant for the audience to view her very much as the female... in a traditional female role. Because if the genders really HAD been reversed she wouldn't be called a hero.
No, her actions wouldn't have been heroic in a man, and they aren't made any more tolerable by her being a woman.
The resentment of her actions aren't based on gender. They're based on the seriousness of her actions (and exacerbated by her also playing the female "but I'm just a girl" card to excuse them).
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Date: 2005-06-26 03:30 pm (UTC)One of the things I like about Spike is that he has a weakness for strong women. He likes his women to be stronger than himself. Sure he might use the bad boy attitude to get his prey, but he always picks a woman stronger than himself as the person to love.
Just look at Harmony, he neither loves nor respects her, cause she isn't stronger than himself. The only times he's really interested in her is when she displays strenght, shows control over him. And those are so rare that they end up with Harm having to pretend to be Buffy, and not a submissive Buffy at that, just to get him interested.
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Date: 2005-06-27 05:50 pm (UTC)Got your back again, sis!
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Date: 2005-06-26 04:23 pm (UTC)*blink* That's not my experience at all. From all my time on alt.sex.stories and alt.sex.bondage (now soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm, but I don't read it any more) vast, vast quantities of SM scenarios are written about the woman in control and the man on the leash.
I would have said well more than half, but possibly that's just the crankiness of a submissive woman who notices the stuff she *doesn't* want to read more than the stuff she does. Certainly I can attest that by far the largest number of any group present at any club I've ever been to are male submissives looking for female doms.
Which is not to say there's no sexism in them, ever. Often it's the insistance on reversal that makes me tired, the idea that the man's normal role is on top so him to be a bottom is surprising, or a mix up, or humilating. Whereas -- in my ideal if not yet fully in reality -- they should start as equals, so that a submissive man and dominant woman are each taking a step away from center, but not switching places. And it's certainly true that part of the reason there aren't enough female doms to go around is societal conditioning for women.
I never thought Spike was overall dominant vis a vis Dru, though they certainly played switchy games. Seemed to me she saved him with her visions as much as he checked her insanity, she was physically at least as strong (witness her carrying him out of the church), emotionally less dependent, and his taking care of her read as at least as much being at her service as it did in control -- much as her taking care of him while he was in a wheelchair did.
I also think there's kink to be found in almost any reversal -- in this case, the reversal of a powerful narrative to which the reader/writer/intended audience has already bought in -- not only in what's counter to society's norms.
I also think, and this one's from personal experience, that for all the patriarchy supposedly supports and promotes female submission? Female submissives are *ANYTHING* but supported and accepted by traditional culture. If anything we get it from both sides -- from the patriarchy for having sexual needs and desires and talking about them, and from feminism for having sexual needs and desires that carry troubling symbolism.
I'm not really sure how much this has to do with Spike and Buffy -- their dynamic is complicated beyond the dreams of analysts, only problematically consensual, and certainly not out of the closet. But since you introduced the SM parallel, I just thought I'd throw out there that us fem subs to male doms are a long, long way from experiencing ourselves as normal.
I just have to put this quote from Drew Greenberg in
Date: 2005-06-26 06:06 pm (UTC)Jan. 9/2002
FROM WENDY: IN THE BUFFYVERSE, PHYSICAL VIOLENCE HAS OFTEN BEEN A METAPHOR FOR EMOTIONAL VIOLENCE. FOR EXAMPLE, THE DEMONS THAT BUFFY PHYSICALLY FIGHTS ARE OFTEN METAPHORS FOR THE EMOTIONAL ISSUES SHE IS FACING. DOES THAT HOLD TRUE FOR THE VIOLENCE OF THE SCENE BETWEEN BUFFY AND SPIKE BEFORE THEY HAVE SEX? IS THE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE BETWEEN THEM REALLY A METAPHOR FOR THE EMOTIONAL ISSUES THEY HAVE? OR DO YOU THINK IT IS REALLY AN EXAMPLE OF A PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP? ARE YOU WORRIED THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ISSUES MIGHT HAVE A NEGATIVE REACTION TO THIS EPISODE OF BUFFY, AS WELL AS TO THE CHARACTER OF BUFFY?
Drew: That's a good question. I think I should say right off that we're all very well aware of the implications when you see that kind of situation on TV, when you know that you're writing that kind of situation, we're all very aware. And certainly the last thing we'd ever want to do is make anybody feel uncomfortable. [...] The last thing we'd ever want to do is make somebody who was experiencing some kind of pain see this and feel worse, that's not what we're trying to do. Given that, I will also say that yes of course it was a metaphor. And was it supposed to be a specifically a physically abusive relationship? Buffy? Super strong? Hello! She may be a girl, but I don't like it when people just assume that because she's a girl that means that she's weak. In fact, this happens to be a character who has super strength and she's super strong and when Spike hits her, it's a little bit different. It's like hitting Superman. It's a little bit different. So if you're going to look at it literally, literally, then you have to keep in mind that this is not a girl who's being hurt by being hit. So, you have to look at it like that. Now, do I think physical violence is right? No, of course not. It's wrong. Is it a metaphor for the emotional pain that both of them are in? Yes, of course. It's definitely supposed to be about the back and forth between them and the taunting and the adversarial relationship.
Candy: What it's been since day one, actually.
Kitty: The tension between them.
Drew: It's always been that.
Candy: The dance that they do.
Drew: Yes, all of that. It's very important that people know that.
FROM DAVID: CAN YOU TELL US IF SPIKE'S CHIP IS EQUAL TO ANGEL'S SOUL, AND EXPLAIN YOUR ANSWER?
Drew: That's an interesting question. I can only speak as an individual, as a fan. This is certainly never a question that we've discussed in the room. It's a really interesting question. Personally, I don't think it's the same. The chip prevents you from doing the things you want to do, the soul means that you don't want to do them, so that's the way that I see them. However what happens to a person when they are put in the position where they can't do what they want to do? Do they want to do it more? Or do they become used to not wanting to do it? Or do they see and learn and change the way they are?
Candy: It's like nature vs. nurture at this point.
Drew: It kindof is. And isn't that going to be an interesting thing to work out?
I remember whenever I looked at Buffy haul off and punch Spike in season four and five, then go to season six where the metaphor becomes literally more painful for the both. Both had issues of control, both were physically playing it out with punches. Thing is the only way you could hurt either character was through words. Season six is a facinating season when you just sit back and watch.
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Re: I just have to put this quote from Drew Greenberg in
Date: 2005-06-27 05:16 pm (UTC)One of my pet peeves is when the Smashed scene is interpreted as Spike beating Buffy down. It was so clearly portrayed as a fight between equals. If anything Spike was taking delight because he could finally fight back after being hit when defenseless. It's such an insult to Buffy's character to treat her as the helpless female and some vewers still do. Society says men shoukdn't hit women because men are the stronger sex. Not really applicable to Buffy!
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Date: 2005-06-27 05:43 pm (UTC)Personally, I like it when BOTH genders are allowed their humanity and to stake claim to their own dignity. It's not a gender issue, it's the fact that if I'm looking for a relationship that I ENJOY in fanfic or on screen I don't like to see one character beaten into submission by the other character. Both characters should be allowed strength and weaknesses. Both should dominate and submit. They should be given emotional equality. Negotiating that equality is where the story is, as far as I'm concerned. How do you reach a point where both characters can be themselves and be together without one person losing all of themselves to the other.
Buffy's actions didn't stake a claim for feminine strength. It just showed that abuse is abuse no matter what the gender. And I didn't respect her for using and abusing a sentient being.
I don't need either character to submit to the other or to dominate the other. I don't want it. And I don't enjoy it. I want them to find a way to deal with each other in a way that isn't about domination.
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Date: 2005-06-27 06:43 pm (UTC)She not only is the physical victor pushing him off her, but also the emotional one - telling him why they can't be together, why it doesn't work - because there is no trust, their relationship is all about fighting for control, who gets to be on top and the reason he is so obsessed is time and again, she wins. She's better than he is.
This, I think, is key. Because it is a struggle. So many times, I feel like the relationship is boiled down to that of an abused housewife with no power. The fact that Buffy comes out on top doesn't mean that it comes with no effort, no pain, on her side. Spike is right there with her, fighting for dominance at every turn. So yeah, she wins in Seeing Red, but that victory doesn't erase the initial attack. Dead Things? Wrong. There's no arguing that. But even that scene is Spike trying to force Buffy to his will. Before the punching starts, we have him throwing her around the alley and refusing to let her go.
What fascinates me about many of the fanfics I've read regarding the relationship, is how many writers have attempted to switch it back to the status quo.
There's so much fanfic out there that mostly just makes me wonder why the writers aren't B/A shippers, because for a lot of authors, those relationship roles seem to hit their kinks more than what we saw from Spike and Buffy.
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Date: 2005-06-28 12:15 am (UTC)He's fighting for a crumb, for some emotion, some bit of feeling that it's more than just sex. If that's fighting for dominance, then it's the kind that almost any woman craves when going into a relationship, the sheer knowledge that you're not just a thing being used to get the other off.
Seeing Red wasn't about taking power, it was about her opening up and seeing her in the only way she'd been willing to 'see' him before. Because that's how she trained him to act.
I prefer Buffy being in charge with Spike being her second, but in my fic, I'll at least have her see him as more than a sextoy. I don't need him to be a leader. Spike's a pushy sub no matter who he's with. But when I read spuffy, I want him to at least be a person to her and from what I saw in the series, that's all he wanted as well.
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Date: 2005-06-28 02:18 pm (UTC)Also you got my point. So maybe it was clearer than I thought.
There's so much fanfic out there that mostly just makes me wonder why the writers aren't B/A shippers, because for a lot of authors, those relationship roles seem to hit their kinks more than what we saw from Spike and Buffy.
I think what people wanted was a conventional romance. What they wanted was something sweet a la Jane Eyre or something in the vein of Mr. & Mrs. Smith or Han and Leia. What they keep forgetting is Buffy The Vampire Slayer was not a romance, it was a horror tale. Nor was it conventional. The writers were not interested in portraying conventional relationships or a conventional universe. What the writer was trying to do was change a genre stereotype that urked him - but not one in the romance genre (he has no knowledge of that), but rather the horror genre/western genre, where the adolescent girl gets killed by the male monster or is enslaved by him. Here, the adolescent whips that monster's butt. She enslaves him. He becomes her fool for love as opposed to the other way around. What people forget - when they watch BTVS was that Spike and Angel as attractive as they are, are monsters. They have fangs. They can kill. And do, often without much qualm. Even with souls, they are sorely tempted and both kill at times. They are the male monster personified - beautiful, seductive, and deadly. Are they likable? Sure.
A large portion of the fic I've read appears to want to rewrite the story, but in the oddest way - they aren't doing what Whedon did, attempting to change the genre stereotype. Instead they attempt to reassert it. Buffy stops being the hero, and is the sidekick. OR she is punished for her role as hero, for having the gumption to put mission and world first. Instead of doing what the writer wants, which is go off with Spike/Angel and have a family. It's sort of like picking up My Brilliant Career (where the heroine turns down the romantic leads proposal and goes off to pursue a writing career in Sydney), getting upset that it doesn't play out like Pride and Prejudice, where the heroine falls for the lead and lives as his lady, and rewriting it so it does.
What bugs me is that BTVS was about a woman in charge. A flawed hero, sure. Yet, in so many fanfics, people seem to want her to be the sidekick. Why?
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Date: 2005-06-27 07:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-29 03:13 am (UTC)Some belated notes
I don't see Spuffy as subversion of classical romantic tradition. I see it as its enrichment.
The "who's on top/who's on bottom" concept gets a neat twist when one of the partners is a creative person.
Firstly, a creative person can be on a metaphorical top without being physically stronger. His strength lies in his spirit. In the end of season 7 Spike is the stronger one. He's the one who saves Buffy from herself and ultimately saves the day. Not with his fists but with his soul. The poet's soul saves the world.
And his act doesn't diminish Buffy's acccomplishments: while the poet's soul saves the world, woman's love changes the world.
Which brings us to the second and most important point in their relatioship. By the end of BtVS their roles has been perfectly conditioned to be complementary to each other. A warrior and a poet. A warrior inspires a poet to immortalize her in his poems. A poet provides a warrior with something to fight for. Their relationship are not about sub/dom anymore. They're about love and creation.
(Come to think of it, Angel being an artist also may have something to do with possibility of his acceptance of stronger!Buffy in case of shanshu. She fights - he paints her and finds satisfaction in his artistic strength.)
Once I wrote a fic where shanshued and amnesia-brainwashed Spike and Angel became comics writers. Their subconsciousness provided them with stories about fearless demon slayer whose sexual desire creates magical resonance able to destroy evil dimensions. :)
BTW, about fics. I read many post-Chosen and post-NFA fics and I don't remember fics about domesticated Buffy who became a housewife. I read fics by Cousinjean, Anaross, St_Salieri, ladywenham, db2305, thedeadlyhook, Casscaro and many other wonderful writers and all of them depict Spuffy after the end of BtVS as the relationship of equal partners.