Buffy S8 - Spike's role and other bits...or where in the frigging heck is Spike?

[shadowkat]

As an aside : the whole argument that the slayers have upset the balance and Twilight's aim to repair it by sacrificing them for the greater good makes him redeemable - reminds me a lot of a rather fascinating fanfic I just read entitled Necessary Evils by lj user rarhirah. In it, Willow's bringing Buffy back, along with Spike changing sides has upset the balance, so Willow chooses to power up/join forces with the First Evil to set the balance straight. To do so, she has to kill Dawn and Buffy - which is a small price to pay for saving the world. She surrounds herself with the First's minions and demons, also kills people - justifying her actions - stating that it is for the greater good. She is saving billions of lives. But the truth is she's getting off on being the one to do it, her pride (hubris) and the desire for power (which she now has in spades) is blinding her to what she is actually doing, so she does not see that there is another way. Twilight apparently is doing the exact same thing.


Okay, I'm been pondering this ever since the whole Twilight reveal...actually before that, but I'd admittedly shrugged it off, because I thought, you know the character is owned more or less by IDW, so what they can do with him on Dark Horse is rather limited. The Twilight reveal threw that argument out the window. It's gone by-by. Apparently I was dead wrong about the copyright sitch. IDW has the rights to the story or verse, but not exclusive to characters that appeared on both series, which to be fair, Scott Allie did tell us way back when.

Which brings me to my question, the one no one seems to be asking or answering at the moment, at least not seriously - "where in the frigging heck is Spike?"

Okay, sure, according to the Angel TV series (let's ignore the Angel comics for the moment), he was with Angel in HEll LA - fighting the demons that his good old pal Angel brought down on them all. If there's an apocalypse to be had trust Angel to not only sniff it out but to bring it to pass. Then feel really quilty about it.

So, assuming he was not killed in HELL LA - according to IDW, Brian Lynch, and Joss Whedon - he wasn't. (See Angel After the Fall and Spike After the Fall for specifics), where is he?

Granted he could be off doing his thing, oblivious to this whole Twilight biz. But I doubt it - considering the players, and his past relations with them. And while you could argue he's not important, or I don't care, and he played his role...there's a few items that bare considering:

1. If you want a slayer killer or expert on slayers? Who are you gonna call?

We have a group that wants to get rid of a slayer army. Wants to kill slayers and has allied itself with vampires to do so. Apparently all these slayers are a problem, although what problem has yet to be explained. (I guess stealing money from a vault and a submarine classifies you in the Buffyverse as a frightening terrorist who will destroy the world and upset the balance. Actually, I think it's more a case of writers block on what the heck do I do with 1800 slayers??? This made a lot more sense in my head than it does on paper.
(While pulling LA into Hell is nooo problemo and causing the resurrection of an old demon is no problemo.))

Anyhow, assume for the moment, that slayers are the problem. So...what character is known for killing slayers? Who has a rep for killing slayers? Not only killing them, but studying them in depth, hunting them down, tracking them? Who was able to hunt, track, and kill two slayers?
And the only one able to do it? Note Angel never could or even wanted to. Drusilla is the only other vamp to do it, and she didn't have to do any tracking.

Spike. Not only is Spike an expert on slayers, he's killed two of them, and struts about in a coat he grabbed off a slayer. (Okay not anymore, since the coat was burned up in Italy while he was traisping after Angel who was traisping after Buffy. Remember that, I'll get back to it shortly.) He is the one who told Buffy in graphic detail how he killed two slayers.

Which vampire was involved in training the potentials to fight vampires up until they became slayers? Spike. Spike was assisting Buffy in teaching the potentials to fight.

Who is obsessed with slayers? Spike. Angel could have cared less - Angel only got caught up in Buffy, the girl. Spike was obsessed with the slayer, fell for the girl much later.

In fact it is Spike who tells both Wood and Buffy the vampire's view of slayers: He says to Wood, Life of the Chosen One, always alone, always about the mission, believe me, I know.
And he states at different points to both Wood and Buffy, vampire - slayer. Slayers are our natural enemy - we kill them. It's them or us.

And Spike is the only vampire to seek a soul - for a slayer. He fell in love with a slayer as a vampire, while he was planning to kill her no less.

Spike is all about slayers. Heck over in Angel S5 - it is Spike not Angel who fights Dana, gets captured by Dana and is brutally mutilated by Dana - the crazy rogue slayer. And it is Spike who backs up Andrew's story about the slayer empowerment spell, tells Angel the specifics, and explains that it is unlikely that Dana can be saved, she's a monster like they are. Angel attempts to take control of Dana, Spike shrugs it off as tragic.

Even if Spike never met Buffy, one would think they'd call the legendary slayer killer?
OR even if he's moved on, why not call him? If he still loves her - again why hasn't Twilight contacted Spike? Or has he?

2. Who knows the slayer spell, the scythe, and Buffy better than anyone? Who has intimate knowledge of why they did that spell, the planning of it, and the outcome? Who was supportive of it - outside of Buffy's nearest and dearest?

Spike. He was directly involved. He was in the hellmouth when it was activated. It was activated around the same time his amulet was.

3. Who besides the slayers were involved in the destruction of Sunnydale and the defeat of the first?

Spike.

4. Now, for a moment, let's jump over to Angel. Spike has intimate knowledge of what happened to Angel in S5 and in Hell LA. He knows about Connor, he knows about WEs and Fred and Dana.
He also knows Angelus.

He followed Angel to Italy the last time Angel went traisping after Buffy and tried to interfer with her life. It was in part to help him, and I think, in part to stop him.

He also called Angel on spying on Buffy.

And to my knowledge he's been more or less joined to Angel's hip up until Angel Aftermath - which to the best of my knowledge is not really part of the Whedon canon anyway.

He also knows all of Angel's secrets and his weaknesses, things Buffy and Faith don't even know.

5. Spike has a wicked habit of screwing up people's plans and saving the day for the good guys. In Becoming - he foils Angel's plans, in Season 3 - the Mayor is worried enough about him that he tries to have him killed, luckily for the Mayor he leaves town, in Season 4 - he screws up Adam's plans and Buffy's. In S5, he screws up Glory's. In Season 6...he goes and gets a soul - which wakes up the First - who decides the balance has been disrupted.
And in S7 - he blows up the vampires and takes out all of Sunnydale, not to mention gives Buffy the necessary boost of confidence to figure out that empowering everyone is the way to go - and bon voyage first. And he fouls up Angel's plan to sacrifice himself in the battle.
In Angel S5 - he disrupts the balance when he becomes corporeal.

Spike is all about chaos, all about disrupting the balance in things. Breaking the rules.
He went and got a soul - vampires aren't supposed to do that. He hunted and tracked slayers and tried to kill them - vampires are supposed to avoid them. He does the opposite of what the PTB want.

Then jumping to the story itself...there are all these weird bits:

1. Ethan Raine's whole appearance in Long Way Home screams Spike. Heck he's in Spike's trademark attire - Angel doesn't really wear a long black leather duster and red shirt most of the time. He uses British pet names such as my love or love, or "pet" - which Buffy takes exception to and insists he stop using immediately. And the first dream he thrusts her inside in her dreamscape is a sexual fantasy of a threesome with Angel and Spike. He's also the one trying to warn her about Amy and Twilight. Ethan - if you recall - was a trickster character who worshipped the Goddess of Chaos, Saga Vasuki, and got his knowledge and power through her.

2. Satsu and Buffy - their relationship is oddly similar to Buffy and Spike's = unrequited love, right hand man/lieutentant, who would do anything for Buffy, and Twilight kicks aside, first breaking her nose.

3. Dawn's romance/sex with Kenny's roomate, Nick, which turn's her into numerous things...
and Nick smokes cigarettes, has dirty hair, wears funky clothes, doesn't care what anyone thinks, and plays in a band - a cliche, sure, but also a billy idol wannabe...like Spike.

4. Andrew's comment to Buffy off-hand in Predators and PRey - about how she traded up from Angel, having met Angel, he's all team Spike. Buffy's says nothing. Is notably silent.

5. Always Darkest - Spike shows up, she says she misses him, Angel asks which one, and can she tell the difference between them, before he kisses Spike and says he always had a weakness for bottled blonds. She ends up marrying Warren, in a church with a congregation of her worse enemies - all the demons she defeated, with Tara as her bridesmaid, while Spike and Angel have sex in the pews, smooching noises off-screen. Waking up, she's bleary eyed and in a foul mood.

6. Both Riley and Twilight/Angel react to an army guy talking about a "spike" in magic. They zero in on the word "spike", and Twilight says they need to kill this "spike".

And of course, as 2maggie2 pointed out in the comments to my last post on Twilight, his absence is all the more glaring for all the people accounted for. We got Harmony - Spike's ex, having a reality series. Clem has showed up (although I don't remember him...but I'll take her word for it). Warren. Amy. OZ. Riley. Even Tara has been referenced more than once, along with Robin Wood - in No Future for You. Dracula. Faith is there. And Ethan Raine. Granted Anya isn't mentioned, but...she's not really pertinent to Buffy so much as Xander.

So it's glaring that Spike is not, in any way. Except either in a sex dream attached to Angel,
or by mild and vague reference - "my lovers tend to oh die, or get sent to hell, or burn up...", or "I'm all Team Spike".

I'd say you could dismiss this except for the bits I cited above - that Spike killed slayers and this story is about slayers, plural. That Spike has been a wild card and upset the balance in not one but two shows -by getting a soul. That Spike knows slayers. Loves them.
Hates them. Obsesses over them. And finally that Spike has a deep bond with Angel as well as Buffy - the two people fighting. He's the only character who has literally had intimate relations with both Buffy and Angel. The only one who knows both of them well, has followed both of their leads, and looks up to both of them at one time or another.

So, again, where is Spike? What is his role going to be? He's clearly not Twilight (thank you Joss, because that would have been out of character...in a big way, I can see Angel falling into that power trap, but not Spike. That does not mean I can't envision Spike helping Angel, although I doubt it - he question Angel every step of the way on the whole WRH deal, he basically lives to second-guess Angel. )

And why all the silence regarding him? Whether the writers care about him or not, they've gone to a lot of trouble in the past and present to demonstrate his connections to the mythos, which are arguably tighter than Angel's - in some respects. You don't have to be a Spike fan to notice that. I know I've had one too many discussions with non-Spike fans regarding how many slayers he's killed and his relationship with them.

Plus if the story is supposed to be about relationships - Buffy has had five. She has slept with four men. In the comics - each has been referenced - Parker, Riley, Angel, Spike.
Parker is referenced by Xander in connection with Dawn's actions that lead to her Giantess status. Spike briefly by Andrew. Riley shows up. Angel is Twilight. Of the four, the most meaningful were arguably Riley, Angel and Spike. The two that changed the course of her life were Spike and Angel. Angel was the one who broke and shut down/closed her heart. Spike was the one who opened it. Finally Satsu, who may well be to Spike, what Riley was to Angel.

The only relationship that has not been wrapped up - that ended with a cliff-hanger of sorts, was Buffy/Spike - she told him that she loved him, he said no you don't, and died. She to our knowledge doesn't know he's alive. He to our knowledge doesn't know she cares, and thinks she has moved on to better climes. Angel knows Spike is alive. Angel knows Buffy loves him.
So why is that relationship left hanging, but the Buffy/Angel one revisited - when it actually was wrapped up in Chosen? Why are they revisiting Buffy/Angel? How does this fit with the theme of empowerment? Or power in general?

Comments

[rahirah]

See, I totally buy that it would make perfect story sense for Spike to show up and be important. I just realized a long time ago that Joss has a very different idea than I do of what makes perfect story sense. So just because I think something makes sense, I have no expectation that Joss will agree and do it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, yeah.

I just don't know that Joss ever thinks much about Spike.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Really?

Joss: "You know, like Angel, he's somebody we wanted to keep our mitts off of for a while. And, like Angel, he's incredibly important to Buffy. So do I have plans for Spike? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say, "Yes." What are they? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say "I'm not going to tell you!" [Laughs]


That's a direct quote from the second part of the Twilight Interview.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Although there's also the point JM once made that Spike usually appeared less in Joss written episodes than virtually any other character.

But, don't mind me. I just have a severe case of Post-Traumatic Joss syndrome and Spuffy persecution complex. I hear Spike/Joss and I start trying to think of what horrible thing Joss could possibly do... and yet I still hope that I'm wrong and that Joss will surprise me in a positive fashion.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

From what I've read, JM really didn't know much about the writing process or what was happening behind the scenes at Buffy. He basically read his part, acted it, got put out Whedon didn't always direct him (he didn't because Marsters was damn good and didn't require much direction), and was your basic actor.

(Actors, sigh.) Robert Deniro was once quoted as saying this is how an actor reads a script..flip, my part, flip, flip, flip, my part, flip, flip, flip, my part. Which makes a lot of sense actually.

Whedon ghost wrote most of the scripts. He wrote all the William sequences in Fool for Love. He wrote most of the Spike bits. He wrote the Church sequence in Beneath You and directed it. He wrote the Buffy/Spike scene in Hells Bells. He wrote and came up with the Buffy/Spike sex scene in Smashed and Dead Things (balcony). He came up with the idea of Spike with a soul. You may not like what he did, but he clearly loved that character and wrote most of Spike's scenes.

Moral - when it comes to movies and films, don't buy anything an actor states outside of how he prepared, figured out how to play the role, and acted it.
Marsters came from theater - he was used to owning a character and owning the stage. In TV and Film - that is just NOT the case.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

So true.

Unfortunately:(

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

Oooo... you know, that makes a whole heaping lot of sense. I'm going to really, really hope that you're right, because that's just about the only thing I can think of that would save the Buffy comics for me at this point.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

As you know, I'm right there with you.

Anya was mentioned in WatG -- Andrew tells the slayerettes that Xander went off and spent time mourning her. That is a brief mention, but there's no mystery about her. There is, of course, one about Spike.

In the Joss interview that came out tonight (CBR) there's a teaser for the next two parts (coming out in the next few days) wherein Joss will discuss Spike's fate. Stormwreath has already posted what Joss will say (evasion, joke, vague allusion, joke). We'll see.

I've been arguing that the text demands Spike for a year now. He fits in all the ways you say. Macha argued long ago that the triad between Buffy, Spike, and Angel is the main structure of the 'verse, and I share that reading. Insofar as the issue is the relationship between power and human, between the demon and the person -- Spike's status as the demon who sought out the soul makes him an essential contrast to Angel who is the demon who was cursed by the soul. Buffy's relationship to her own calling is ambiguous and arguably mirrors her ambiguous relationship to the two vamps. The standard issue view is that Angel is the soul mate. But he is so dark. Can Buffy only choose him as her dance partner if he mirrors her own dark? She's pretty dark this season. Structurally, Spike would represent the push back from that. (The other structural element is to compare the Faith/Buffy contrast with the Spike/Angel contrast. Faith and Spike come in as the villains. But in NFFY Faith and Buffy had flipped. We get full circle if Angel and Spike have flipped as well.

I'm biased as all get out. I've been hanging with these comics because I want to see these structural elements affirmed, however it plays out dramatically. (One assumes Buffy comes down on the side of light -- either siding with Spike against Angel, or dragging Angel back from the dark; but that's not a necessary outcome). We'll know soon.

p.s. I read the tale of Munroe in Retreat as fairly dark foreshadowing. Munroe is the split being who gives into the dark (after venturing out into the world on the mistaken assumption that he can handle it). Buffy sighs wistfully at the prospect of giving in. I would not mind it if the Bangel ending the fans all want is tragic not because two heroes die in battle or can never get together, but because they come together in a joint decision to give in.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You know sometimes I wonder why I torture myself with WIP serials...and don't just wait until the whole thing comes out on DVD or in trade paperback...that way I can skip to the end and see if I'm happy, or if I get annoyed, skip ahead and see if the story gets more interesting. With WIP's you have to trust the bleeding writer to not let you down and deliver the goods...and 5 times of ten, they do, the other five, they really really don't. This is why I don't read fanfic WIP's anymore...well that and the fact that people have a bad habit of not completing the things.

Also, I can well understand why you've gotten frustrated discussing this with people and given up. The comments I've received are equally irritating. I don't like being dismissed because I happen to love the character. Because that is NOT why I think he is important to the story. I'm looking at this objectively. If he had been mentioned like Wood, I'd have shrugged and kept reading, disappointed, sure, but I'm partly reading this to see how Whedon ties it to the Frayverse if at all. But instead the writer has been dropping little hints here and there throughout the last three years...pointing out - hey did you notice who is not here??? Hint. Hint. He says "pet". Hint Hint. To the point in which I want to grab Whedon by his shirt tails and say, I get it! I get it! Spike is not here! Now quit pussy-footing around and tell me why already. Because it is getting distracting. (My main problem with S8 is how much it has drug. Sure tease us for five months, that's fine, but for four years? You better frigging deliver a good twist and conclusion if you are going to do that, or you will have a lot of annoyed fans.)

At any rate, I completely agree with you. But then I think you and I may well see Angel in a similar manner. I like Angel, but Whedon writes him as a tragic hero/anti-hero - who basically corrupts or destroys whatever he touches and is doomed to failure. A Batman character who dreams of being Superman. (Note I said Whedon, other writers vary.)

I also agree that Munroe may very well be dark foreshadowing.
Buffy ends up beaten and betrayed at one point. We don't know by who, except that it is not Willow - I'm guessing Angel, although haven't we already been there, done that? Except for one thing and that is Buffy has always written off all of his Angel's bad deeds as Angelus. That Angel is good. That Angel is trustworthy. That he is not Angelus. And as a result he, Angel, didn't do those things to her and her friends. Spike's journey in some respects was a commentary on that view. I'm guessing this may be as well. That's one, two is Buffy has Daddyissues, and Angel in some respects was the stand-in for Hank (creepy but I'm convinced of it).

But back to Spike... we know Buffy and Willow's arcs are paralleling each other. We've met all Willow's ex-loves, and dealt with them. OZ, Tara, and Kennedy.
With Buffy - we just have Angel, Riley....

Also we've got Giles/Andrew/Xander on one side, and Riley/Warren/Angel/Voll on the other. We're missing someone.
And there's a statement Allie makes that the big question will become who takes whose side. Who will side with Twilight, and who will side with Buffy.

Plus, Allie says it is about relationships...okay. But the only relationship you did not wrap up and left hanging out in the ether is Spike and Buffy, which he has to know because of all the countless questions he's answered and teased about it.
I think he is planning on resolving both B/A and B/S in these stories. I just don't know how.

And even if I'm wrong on that point...like I stated to stormwreath below...if Spike doesn't show up before the end of this arc is done...it will feel as if there's a word missing from the completed story, which I'll keep wanting to fix.
Which makes the story fairly unsatisfying. You don't point out negative space, unless you have a desire to do something about it. And Whedon has gone out of his way to point out the negative space regarding Spike.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

It's scary how on the same page we are about Angel and Spike. Yes, Buffy sees Daddy protection in Angel. That's why she can't see Spike for what he is.

Today's issue just revisited the Spike's not here trope. We dealt with B/R and B/X and we all know B/A is here. No B/S.

And I trust you've heard the big news? If not, go to my LJ page and click on links!!!!

(Bites tongue because wants to say more, but doesn't want to spoil if you don't want to be spoiled).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh the new issue is out?? Cool! Need to pick it up when it is warmer - which will be tomorrow or Friday.
(We are getting up into the 40s! And the comic shop is six to ten blocks walking distance from my home.)

News?? What big news? I went to the link - and it sounds like Joss said Spike is incredibly important?

Oh by the way, I went back to check my poll on Buffy comics, and vampmogs, angeria, and ub140soft - were the only ones to guess who Twilight was.

LOL!

(I think you and I would have if we hadn't bought Whedon and Allie's spiels and the whole IDW bit.)

Also, Buffyforums seem to think this arc takes place in 2008/2009 or present time, while Angel takes place in 2004/2005 - or right when Angel S5 left off.
Buffy takes place at least five years later.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

He's asked if he has plans for Spike. Joss answers YES.

We're right -- Spike's going to show in season 8.

:)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

And yay for above freezing. I'm in the Midwest and I *hate* the big chill. We've had some Januaries that don't get above freezing for a minute. I don't think we get to 40 tomorrow. But we at least get above 32.

New issue is a good one. Intriguing in many ways.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee! I got the news and yay! I knew I was right about Whedon.
I've watched and read far too many Whedon things not to see the structure in his writing.

The guy who wrote and created Woody and Buzz (the first Angel and Spike), Dr. Horrible and Hammar, Boyd and Ballard,
and went to such trouble to rewrite Beneath You, certainly cares about Spike.

Love, love, love this quote. (Watch me gloat now.)

You know, like Angel, he's somebody we wanted to keep our mitts off of for a while. And, like Angel, he's incredibly important to Buffy. So do I have plans for Spike? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say, "Yes." What are they? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say "I'm not going to tell you!" [Laughs]

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

My brother totally thinks that Hammer is a slam on Bangel. I'm guessing you might think the same.

It's a *great* quote.

And I've been having intense cognitive dissonance for a YEAR now because it seemed dead obvious to me that Spike was being written around in a meaningful way and almost everyone (save you and Emmie) was saying I was nuts. Yay for end of cognitive dissonance!!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Cognitive dissonance is right. I ignored the clues that my brain was picking up on Angel...because I believed the naysayers. I really need to stop not trusting myself on these things. (You'd think I'd learn from past experience - this happened in S6 too.)
But I predicted from the get go - that Spike and Angel would show up in a big way towards the very end of the arc, somewhere around issue 33 or thereabouts. Whedon more or less stated as much.

And I have no idea where fans are picking up on the whole Whedon doesn't think Spike is important to Buffy bit? It isn't coming from Whedon. Everything Whedon states and has done has said the opposite.

My brother totally thinks Hammar is a slam on Bangle, I'm guessing you'd think the same

LOL! Oh yes. Very much so. I like your brother. ;-)

Mine is a Bangle shipper and preferred Angel to Buffy.
He did not understand why I adored Spike or Spuffy.
LOL!

PS: I used to live in Kansas City, and Lawrence KS - so I get where you are coming from. We're wimps in NYC.
In KC - you're lucky if it gets above 20 degrees in the winter.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Great post. I definitely agree that there's a flashing light awaiting the arrival of Spike. I hope they just get on with it already.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, as I was telling 2maggie2 above, I feel much the same way.
My main criticism of S8 is it has drug. They have drawn this story out too long, to the point in which we're beginning to see all the cracks...and that's not a good idea.

That said, the writer has gone to a lot of trouble to hint at Spike not being there. And tease about it in interviews. If he doesn't show up, we're going to notice and the story will feel off or unfinished. Besides if Spike was minor or not important, Whedon could have easily done a two panel bit like he did with Robin Wood - and we'd have forgotten him. He's done the opposite.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'd like to congratulate you for being one of the three people who correctly guessed Twilight was Angel months ago. I went back to my Buffy comics poll and you, vampmogs, and ub140soft were the only ones who guessed Angel.

(I was thrown off by Whedon/Allie's, specifically Whedon, interviews. and my conviction that they couldn't do it because IDW - the only loophole I saw was that Buffy may be taking place a lot later than Angel is. Which apparently Buffyforums is confirming.)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, I think you make very good points and it would certainly make sense to me to have Spike show up, I'm just very sceptical if Joss/the other writers see it the same way.

From the general perspective - yes it would certainly make sense, from the scenes and lines you quoted too, but they could as well be just teasing.

I wish I was as convinced that the story will add up.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but why tease? To what point? I mean sure, once or twice, but over and over and over again?

He's not been subtle about the fact that Spike isn't in the story, he points at the fact every chance he gets. Then makes a huge point of only showing Spike with Angel. We see Angel by himself, but we never see Spike without Angel - when he is shown. And when he's directly mentioned? It's in connection with Angel - "having met Angel, I'm now totally team Spike" or
"everyone who loves me dies, or goes to hell, or burns up.."
- the only time we get the word spike stated without Angel is in Angel/Twilight's presence - "there's a spike in magic"?
And it is in conjunction with magic.

That's a bit obvious. The writer has a reason for doing that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, I really hate to gloat...but here you go, from Whedon's mouth:

You know, like Angel, he's somebody we wanted to keep our mitts off of for a while. And, like Angel, he's incredibly important to Buffy. So do I have plans for Spike? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say, "Yes." What are they? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say "I'm not going to tell you!" [Laughs]

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I read it. I'm actually glad, if I'm proven wrong and there is a decent storyline for Spike in S8 or S9 to come.

I'll sit and wait and form my opinion as I read the books, I have been paying too much attention to the whole behind the scene did as it is.

Hope he gets a pretty Chen cover and also hope he gets lucky and they have a guest artist, when he shows up.

[shapinglight]

I don't believe it, I'm sorry. I don't expect Spike to show up at all. He just isn't important to Buffy's story in Joss's opinion, and I'm pretty sure 'the fate of Spike' part of this new Joss interview will confirm that.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And you know this how, exactly? I mean I haven't seen evidence of that anywhere. If anything - I've seen the absolute opposite.

Even the interviews...he says the opposite. He states Spike had a more interesting arc, a more adult one in the Q&A at the Humanist thing, he states Buffy loves Spike or Satsu, without being asked at that. In the most recent interview he says that the only reason he got involved with IDW was he got interested in and liked what Lynch was doing with the SPIKE comics, note he said zip about the Angel ones.

Also... Whedon made Angel Twilight and you were convinced it would be Giles or someone uninteresting.
So...I don't see anything supporting your argument.
Before Angel became Twilight...maybe. But not now.

[shapinglight]

It's hardly an argument, just a gut feeling based on what I've seen in this comic so far. That's all.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, well..if I trusted my brain and not my gut, I would have picked Angel as Twilight.

Gut's aren't always reliable in storyline predicting. ;-) (They tend to be highly subjective.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

From the new Joss interview:

You know, like Angel, he's somebody we wanted to keep our mitts off of for a while. And, like Angel, he's incredibly important to Buffy. So do I have plans for Spike? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say, "Yes." What are they? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say "I'm not going to tell you!" [Laughs]

(okay, I shouldn't gloat...but hey, with the hellish things going on at the moment, it's the little things.)

[shapinglight]

Yes, I read that, and I do feel better.

[elisi]

I love this post. It's intelligent, well-thought out, comprehensive and makes perfect sense.

And for those reasons I am 99.99% certain that none of this will be taken into account when it comes to s8. Which is a shame.

[lynnenne]

I think it would be bizarre and loopy to *not* have Spike show up at some point in the comics.

My reading on the whole thing is that Angel is some variation of future!Angel. He's seen the apocalypse that he is prophesied to take part in, the one that bring about the end of all humanity. And the Slayer spell has played some part in that apocalypse. Thus, he's come back to try to prevent the end of humanity from happening. That's the only explanation that would make sense of Angel's behavior, IMO. Angel was *always* about choice, and for him to start killing 1,800 slayers because it *might* save billions isn't enough for him. (That was why he fought Jasmine, after all.) It would have to be something he's already seen with his own eyes, and thinks of as inevitable.

In the last episode of the "Angel: After the Fall" comics (the ones that Joss oversaw), there's a conversation between Angel and Spike about the Shanshu prophecy. Angel says to Spike, "The thing about not being in the books, is that no one pays attention to you. They're never gonna see you coming." And Spike nods and smiles in agreement. I think, as you point out, that Spike is the wild card in the whole story, the one who will upset destiny and help Buffy find a third, alternative way out of this (supposedly) pre-destined apocalypse, the way she always does.

And finally that Spike has a deep bond with Angel as well as Buffy - the two people fighting. He's the only character who has literally had intimate relations with both Buffy and Angel. The only one who knows both of them well, has followed both of their leads, and looks up to both of them at one time or another.

As someone who ships A/S and B/A/S, this paragraph just made me all weak in the knees. <3

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I don't ship A/B/S or A/S really... but will state there is evidence to back up my statement in the series.

*Spike to Illyria: I know Angel intimately, well not..okay except for that one time, but that's...
(Yep, he slept with Angelus or Angel at some point.)

Whedon in an interview: of course they would, they are vampires and open-minded guys.

No, from a completely non-ship status, the three characters have been linked by the writer, just as Faith, Buffy and Angel and Spike have been linked.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

It's a good argument, and definitely makes sense. Personally, I'm in "wait and see" mode now; I'll be happy if Spike shows up in a major role, but I'm not thinking that the story can only make any sense if he does.

By this time next year we'll know how it ends. :-)


One quibble, totally irrelevant to your main point:

So...what character is known for killing slayers? Who has a rep for killing slayers? Not only killing them, but studying them in depth, hunting them down, tracking them? Who was able to hunt, track, and kill two slayers? And the only one able to do it? Note Angel never could or even wanted to. Drusilla is the only other vamp to do it

I'm not sure if that's actually tue, because of this line of dialogue from 'Fool For Love':

DRUSILLA: My little Spike just killed himself a Slayer.
ANGEL: Congratulations. I guess that makes you one of us.

That sounds very much like Angel(us), and maybe Darla too, have killed Slayers before; and now that Spike has done it he's worthy to join their little club. The difference is that Angelus saw no reason to boast about his Slayer-killing exploits; Spike wants to tell the world about it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Except that it is Angel who says it NOT Angelus,
and the comment is mostly about killing things, just after Angel couldn't kill a baby. You have to see it with the Darla episode - where Angel's comment is seen through Darla's eyes. And Darla states - Spike, SPIKE!
killed a slayer, and you can't even kill a baby!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh Angelus wasn't beyond boasting...he boasted about Dru all the time. And Acathla. I got the feeling he didn't kill slayers - he was, remember, more interested in creating monsters from innocents like Drusilla into creatures like himself that he could control and less interested in fighting people - to Angelus it was about the artistry of the kill. Spike it is about the rush.

Key difference between the two. Angel would get off on the power rush of being Twilight. He loves being in authority...the big Daddy. Spike...is more interested in flipping the game board and causing chaos.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

That's the point, though. Spike would be all "I killed a Slayer, go me! Woo hoo!". Angelus, on the other hand, would be more concerned about the artistry and dramatic irony of how he killed a Slayer. To boast about the simple fact that he killed one at all would be demeaning and beneath him...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Actually, I was thinking about it right now, and while your analysis is possible...what is important is that the writers made a huge point of emphasizing Spike's status as a slayer killer, from multiple points of view and never once directly stated or mentioned that Angelus killed one or was even interested - outside of that very vague comment.

Giles in School Hard: Ohhh, Spike has killed two slayers...

Fool for Love, Buffy to Giles - who do we know that has killed a slayer and has inside information?
Buffy to Spike - you killed two slayers - give me the goods, I give you the dough.

The demon in Buffy S6 who Spike is fighting for his soul from - "you were a legendary warrior...and now"

Spike to Clem: I've killed a slayer, that's what vampires do. Why haven't I killed her?

In Damage - the character who fights the slayer and is mutilated by her, and who she sees killing slayers is Spike not Angel. And it is Spike who shows remorse.

The character who wears the slayer's coat - again Spike.

I don't remember ANY mention of Angelus killing a slayer outside of that three word comment. Nor was it focused on by the writer of this story.

Spike is all about the slayer. It is his obsession.
He sought her out. He is obsessed with slayers.
Angel wasn't. He didn't seek Buffy out, Whistler lead him to her and showed him who she was.

Also it is important that of the two characters, while Spike was soulless and still evil or run by the demon, he not only fell for the slayer, he fought for her.
Then, he got his soul for her. And he sacrificed himself to save her and her kin. Considering this is a guy who prided himself on killing slayers that's a switch. Not only that, but he turned against his own kind. He killed vampires, while soulless. He aided the slayer in killing them. He trained slayers.

Now, you have a storyline in which slayers are considered evil by the human populace and vampires are cool. The person spearheading this movement is Spike's ex-girlfriend, Harmony.

I didn't write that. The writers did. WHY?? If Spike isn't important to this story, why did they go to the effort of writing that and why not just write a sentence stating - Spike is dead. OR Spike is in LA.
It would be easy. They could do it as a joke, have him preen on Larry King next to Harmony.

But they haven't.

And you haven't given me a good argument as to why.
All you've stated is Angelus has bigger balls. But we already know that, that isn't important. That's why Angel is Twilight. What I want to know is where is the vampire who kills vampires, trained slayers, hangs with women who aid in killing vampires, not only gets off on female power, but is willing to sacrifice himself to aid in it. We got the epitome of paternalism, was the epitome of maternalism? Yin/Yang.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ugh. should be "where's the epitome of maternalism".

Sorry, I just don't see how this story can work with that one story plot line hanging. It's like looking at a painting - and seeing one spot that is uncompleted...your eye is constantly drawn to that piece of negative space - it may be tiny, just a dab of sky not colored in, but there it is. You may not even notice it at first, but something about the painting seems off, unsatisfying, incomplete and you desperately want to fix it. Or a piece of fanfic or post where someone has left out one word...

That's how Spike's absence feels. It's glaring because of all the parts filled in. We've had an appearence by every living major character but him, including a few really dead ones.
A central character whose storyline was not cleanly wrapped up...is missing. Which I could shrug off, except the writer keeps dropping little hints drawing my attention to it. And I've read and seen enough of Whedon's work to know that is intentional. This is a guy who wrote a soloiguey to Negative Space after all.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Except that it is Angel who says it NOT Angelus,
and the comment is mostly about killing things

Spike has been with Angel for about 20 years at that point: I can't believe it's the first time he's ever killed a human being in all that time! Angel's "You're one of us now" must be about him killing a Slayer, not him killing another person in general.

And sure, Angel is secretly disgusted at the whole thing, but he's still trying to pretend he's the same old Angelus.

[elisi]

That sounds very much like Angel(us), and maybe Darla too, have killed Slayers before
Odd that no one else, ever, mentions it. (And I'm thinking of Giles, Wesley, anyone from W&H...)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

In an out-of-story, meta way I'd say that's because killing Slayers is Spike's schtick. It's what he's known for, and how he's identified in the show. Adding a throwaway comment that "Oh, and of course Angelus killed a bunch of Slayers back in the 1820s as well, you know" would just detract from Spike's uniqueness.

In-universe, I think it's simply that Angelus did so much worse. The man used to rape and murder entire convents full of nuns for a hobby; the fact that he killed a Slayer or two along the way would seem trivial in comparison...

[elisi]

In-universe, I think it's simply that Angelus did so much worse.
Hm. Spike is, in-universe, the *Second* worst vampire on record, and did - amongst other things - slaughter an orphanage. I think it'd be mentioned somewhere if Angelus killed a Slayer... (The reason he didn't is probably quite simple - Spike got fixated because he loved a good fight, where he might not win. And it took him 20 years to find one even so! Angelus liked *torment*, and fixated on broken people, where the odds were wildly uneven.)

Angel/us killing slayers

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry but Angelus never killed any slayers. That's a fact and Dru only did because of her thrall.
No other vampire other then Spike met slayers in combat, fair fight to the death. The reason why Spike went after slayers is because they were the best the white hats had to offer in terms of warriors. Angelus tried to destroy a slayer(Buffy) his way in season 2, by breaking her mind, taking away her support which was ended in Buffy the slayer beating the crap out of him.

Now ofcourse it's a lot easier to kill slayers, hell even dumb twit Harmony was able to kill one.
The glory days are over. Although i wouldn't mind seeing Spike back on Buffy and have his own specialized slayer squad of 8 or 10 slayers. They could be like the best of the best, trained by the infamous legendary dark warrior Spike. Sorta like the special forces of the group.