Another Kitchen Sink Post: awards, fanfiction, Lost...Spuffy...

[shadowkat]

Well I downloaded Firefox and it still didn't block the pop-up ads. I also don't like how Firefox is setup. Too use to Windows Internet Explorer...evil, but comforting.

Curious about something - it's a general question, well sort of - to all who read this:

How much importance do you place on awards? By that I mean - not how much you place on getting them yourself, but how much you place on choosing to see a film, watching a tv show, or reading a story or book or something on the internet based on awards it has received?

For example:

Do you choose to watch a tv show because it won an Emmy? Or do you care?

How about a movie - would you go see a movie just because it won a bunch of awards? Would you decide to go see AVATAR if it won best picture?

What about books? Would you be more likely to read or buy a book if it won the Booker, Pulitzer, National, Hugo or Nebula book awards?

Do you choose fanfiction or metas based on the rewards they get? Or just recs?

How about music? If an album wins a Grammy - would you be more likely to listen to it?

Or does it matter? Really?

I'm curious. I know if a film, book, tv show, or piece of music wins an award it is more likely to get distributors and have a bigger marketing campaign, also the creator is more likely to get a second deal or get it extended in print or if a tv show, another season.Mad Men for example got reknewed based purely on it's critical acclaim and awards at the Emmy's and Golden Globes. It was not based on ratings, which are below most tv shows. Few people actually watch Mad Man. It has a nitch audience.

So, my question is - what is the importance to you, personally, regarding awards?

I have mixed feelings myself. I want them of course, only human. But time and experience have taught me that taste is subjective and often fickel. And most things put in competition against each other, are well, a bit like holding a competition with fruit - which is best: the apple, the grape, the orange, the banana, or the nectarine? Personally? I'd say the apple, but it depends on my mood. Can you really compare films like Avatar, Up in the Air,
Precious, Broken Embraces, Nine, Up, Inglorius Bastards, and Coraline? They are vastly different films. Or what about Lawrence of Arabia vs. To Kill a Mockingbird? In music - Taylor Swift vs. Lady Gaga??? I mean, come on, that's like comparing Kris Allen's folk/country to Adam Lambert Glam/Soul/Rock - waite they did that. Or how about Catherine Valente's Girl Who Circumvented Fairyland ( a web book) vs. Joss Whedon's video musical Doctor Horrible's Sing a Long Blog? (I can't imagine a contest that actually pitted those two vastly different creations against each other, but it happened.)

In sports - it makes more sense. We pit athelets of similar skills against each other. Skiers against Skiers, figure skaters against figure skaters. Even break it down into specific categories...so that downhill skiers aren't competing agains mogules. Or figure skaters aren't competing against speed skaters. But the arts for some reason...tends to be harder.

I don't know. I know that I will often pick a book or piece of writing that has won an award over one that hasn't. I read Bone People because it won the Booker Prize. And I've seen films that I knew were nominated for an Oscar, because they were nominated. (Since grown out of that practice, Titantic and Ghandi sort of killed it - both won, and both bored me.)
So, I guess in a way I do pay attention - out of curiousity. And like all creative people, all people, I like the recognition. Having won few awards in my lifetime - it does make me happy when I do. But I still wonder...how much importance do we place on it?



On an entirely different topic...rewatched last year's Lost season finale last night. Whoa.
That is one amazing episode. I may have to write a meta on it yet. I particularly love this exchange:

After much pain and suffering, and bad deeds, anti-hero and tragic figure, Bejamin Linus,
comes face to face with his maker or god, if you will, Jacob...who he's followed, been devoted to, and yet never seen or gotten an audience with until now...and Jacob is still more interested in someone else, or so he appears to be.

Ben to Jacob: What about me? What about me, Jacob!
Jacob: What about you?

It's so perfect. Man rails at the heavens in a narcissitic yell...and the heavens look down and wonder, seeing man as but one thread in an every expanding tapestry filled with many inter-connecting threads, all equally important, and all railing, and smiles...yes, I see you, but if you'd stop whining for a moment, you might see everyone and everything else, which lies around you.

Brilliant episode. Possibly helped by the fact that it focused primarily on Ben/Lock and Sawyer/Juliet - my two favorite pairings, and my four favorite characters on the series.
I adore those four.

This sync's nicely into a rather marvelous series of fanfiction I've been reading. Rarihah's (sp?) or the Barbverse series: Raising in the Sun, Necessary Evils, and Parilament of Monsters surprised me. I had avoided it, because I thought it was babyfic (which I can't abide - seems OOC to me in BTVS). But these three tales aren't. They aren't really Spuffy either, although Spuffy is definitely a component and if Spuffy squicks you like Bangle currently squicks me for some reason (didn't use to, does now - my rewatch last year, including I Will Always Remember You...and the Twilight series via Stephanie Meyer may have something to do with that), you probably want to avoid big time, but...if it doesn't and you are a Willow fan or a Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy fan - you want to read this. She explores Willow from just about every angle imaginable, and in a way I don't see very often. As well as the Willow/Tara relationship. Her other characters, with the possible exception of Angel, are handled quite well. She nails Xander and Xander is very likable and caring in this fic.
Not evil or romanticized. (a lot of Spike fic writers have grudges against Xander, she doesn't. I don't like grudge fic , it annoys me.) She also handles Giles well and allows Giles to be a scholar, with an academic interest in vampires. Each character is interesting.
The weakness so far is Angel - who I'm guessing the writer doesn't like and is struggling with. Angel is a hard character to write - because he is so dark and broody and angsty. People either write him like a straight-up hero with black cape billowing a la Edward in Twilight meets Nick Knight in Forever Knight (if those two had a kid and sigh, eww) or they write him as a whiny, egotistical, domineering, ass. Either makes me cringe. Here he falls more into the whiny side of the fence. Luckily he doesn't show up that much, so you can ignore it. That said, this fic is brilliant in how it discusses what vampires are, morality,
and the meaning of souls - I may not necessarily agree, but I am fascinated by the layers.
Highly recommend that you check this out, if you have not already.

As a caveat should state that while I have read quite a bit of fanfiction outside of Buffy and outside of Spuffy, stories that feature Spike and specifically Spuffy tend to be my preference. Mostly because the stupid series did not resolve the relationship in my opinion, or that character's arc to my satisfaction, so I'm still sort of hunting a resolution. See they resolved all her other ones, although they don't appear to think they did or that they audience thinks they did because they keep revisiting these relationships to the point in which I want to grab them and scream I get it! I get it! Now can you tell me what you meant at the end of Chosen, because I want to know if I interpreted that scene correctly and if the relationship is truly over because both characters have moved on, or Buffy didn't really love him in that way and just cared deeply for him as a friend and he's moved on to Illyria, or just over because Buffy thinks he's dead, but if he wasn't.... Thank you.

Comments

[shapinglight]

I don't think I've ever watched or read anything on the basis of it having won awards. I do watch or read things based on reviews I read in my newspaper (the Guardian), though, except when it comes to genre fiction, about which it takes a rather snobby attitude that I've learned to ignore and make up my own mind about.

With fanfic, I sometimes click on recced fics and am glad I've done so. On the other hand, sometimes I click away again immediately. Fanfic is so much a matter of personal taste (well, like everything, I suppose).

Agree with you 100% that Buffy's relationship with Spike is the only one that remains unresolved, and yet I have the sneaking feeling that Joss doesn't agree. I can't think otherwise why he would leave Spike out of the Buffy comic entirely, except for a possible appearance in the final arc while revisiting both B/A and B/R fairly extensively.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, in the beginning (and after the later quotes I tend to think so again) I thought that he was keeping Spike in the shadows because he knew that he was the big unresolved thing that's left from the show.

Everything else was pretty much tied up and the weird idea that Spike does not immideately contact Buffy was already established in S5 of Angel, so there was no rush.

I keep hoping this is for maximum effect, that the one who comes last will matter the most.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I keep hoping this is for maximum effect, that the one who comes last will matter the most.

Well that does actually fit Whedon's particular brand of story structure. The mislead. The tease. The hint.
The build of anticipation. Leaving the things that are the most unresolved for the last act. It's how he keeps readers in the game.

And...if he didn't think Spike was important? He'd have written him off much the same way he did Robin Wood in the first year.

No...if you look at Whedon's story-telling structure, that fits. I remember reading that if Whedon had his way in Angel S5 - we wouldn't have seen Spike until the fourth or fifth episode, but the network insisted he include him earlier. And remember how slowly Angel was reintroduced in S3...took a little while.

Considering the comics are drawn out - ie. a tv season over the space of four years..? This would make logical sense.

I can totally see Whedon doing that.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I can see him do it too, though I'm not too happy with his timing sometimes. I think I'd be fine if it came out all during one year, but stretched over four this season has had to many lenghts.

But I hope the finale will make up for some of it and I'm somewhat convinced now that Spike was helf back for dramatic ipact for the reasons you named.

If he really thought he wasn't important he would have written him out by now.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed on all points. Whedon has stretched this story out far too thinly. I'm reading rarhiha's fanfic at the moment and it is so much tighter. Considering it's a novel and no pictures, that's saying something. Comics need to be tight. We have to wait too long to get each issue. And Whedon has a nasty habit of taking month or two month long writer breaks or artist breaks...due to either writers block or being too busy with other projects.

Sigh. I wasn't such a stubborn person, I'd have given up ages ago. That and the fact that I'm rather enjoying discussing it with the fandom. ;-)

Anyhow..I agree if Whedon thought Spike wasn't important, he'd have gotten a two page scene a la Principal Wood in No Future for You and by another writer. Plus Whedon has stated on more than one occassion that he has plans for the character.

[shapinglight]

:crosses fingers that you're right while not quite able to convince myself that Joss will make Spike as important - let alone more important - than Angel:

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

With fanfic, I sometimes click on recced fics and am glad I've done so. On the other hand, sometimes I click away again immediately. Fanfic is so much a matter of personal taste (well, like everything, I suppose).

Agree with you 100% on this one. There was a fic by darkapple heavily rec'd on my flist that I clicked on, made it through about the first 30 pages, before rolling my eyes and giving up.
It just wasn't to my taste. It truly is a subjective thing.

Agree with you 100% that Buffy's relationship with Spike is the only one that remains unresolved, and yet I have the sneaking feeling that Joss doesn't agree. I can't think otherwise why he would leave Spike out of the Buffy comic entirely, except for a possible appearance in the final arc while revisiting both B/A and B/R fairly extensively.

I'm uncertain what Joss thinks about this. There is a valid argument for not including him which candlefeather provides below. The gist of which is why kill a great arc, and isn't a little bit of mystery a good thing??

BUT...From a pure logical reasoning/story analysis/plot/character arc perspective? It just does not make sense that Whedon would deliberately and significantly address all of Willow's significant romantic relationships, and almost all of Buffy's, except for Spike. Granted Whedon has not done all of Xander's - but the Buffy and Willow are the focus here, not Xander. Xander is basically just another love interest and appears to have little role outside of that. (And it is precisely for that reason - that I think Whedon is building to something here. The comics are focusing far too much on romantic relationships for it not to be important. If they weren't, like the Angel comics, I'd shrug it off, but they are. We have whole issues focused on them.

I think flakesake is right - Whedon is clearly building up to something here with Spike. In his last interview, Whedon more or less states as much. Just not what. And even people who don't like the character of Spike have picked up on the hints and teases - so much so, they thought he was Twilight. (Heck for a while that was my fear theory. Because that's how it is set up, and I've seen a story very similar to this one done like that before (*cough*WolverineasDeathinXmen*cough*).)

I also think it has something to do with the male/female gender roles in traditional romantic relationships. At least that's the pattern I see emerging here. We start with Satsu as true love's kiss - Satsu is basically Spike as a female slayer in many ways. She's gay, Buffy is embarrassed and wants to hide it,
and yet in some respects she feels closer to Satsu and has great/amazing sex with her. Then we move to her scene with Angel, and the dream of being back in high school, freshman year, when she first met him. Next up is Riley. Then Xander.
And soon, well, Angel again in the flesh. Whedon likes to bookend things. We started with Ethain leading her through her dream, an unrequited lover waking her up, Buffy coming face to face with two men who thought she didn't love them...and losing them because of it (Xander/Riley)...then to the core of that problem...and finally??

So, yes, I think Spike's going to play a major role here, I'm just not sure what it is or how much screen time he'll get.

[rahirah]

FWIW, at around the end of chapter 3, "Imitation of a Man" takes a massive left turn at Albuquerque and turns into an incredibly suspenseful and well-paced historical thriller.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

So, I basically just have to hang in there until chapter 3? Will try again.

I have this kindle thing which makes it a lot easier to read some fanfic - depending on where it is located.

[rahirah]

Well, I can't say for sure it won't still make you eyeroll, but the first three chapters aren't completely representative of the story as a whole, let's say.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Now you've sparked my curiosity. But I have to finish Parliament of Monsters first.

I'm fascinated by your exploration of the vampire/slayer mythology.
You are basically hitting some of the bits that I desperately wanted to be explored in the series and comics and just aren't. As much as I love Whedon's writing...he seems to be fairly traditional in some respects.

I also agree with your interpretation of Spike/Buffy - you appear to see the two characters in much the same way I do in some respects. My difficulty with a lot of Spuffy fics - is often the writer will write Buffy as a hard nasty bitch. It was a problem I had with herself's fic - her Buffy often came across as a bit too hard/too brutal for my taste and her Spike too vulnerable/too self-loathing. That said, I still loved her fic "Whatever She Deserves" and it's sequel.

I'm admittedly picky, comes from over-analyzing the characters, I suspect. ;-)

[shapinglight]

So, yes, I think Spike's going to play a major role here, I'm just not sure what it is or how much screen time he'll get.

Well, it can't be much. At the most generous estimate, it can't be more than 5 issues' worth of a 40 issue series.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hey, at this point, I'd be happy if we got one issue that focused on it. As long as Whedon resolves the issue..I really don't care. ;-)

More or less figured out what he's probably doing with Angel based on what he did on Dollhouse, I'm just not sure about Spike. Except that he spent a lot of time on both series, Angel and Buffy, building up Spike's relationships with Angel and Buffy respectively, and keeps referring to the fact that he is important to both of them in the comics...so from a purely objective pov - he has to show up in some capacity at some point. It may be on the last page of the final issue...as a cliff-hanger, I wouldn't put that past Whedon.

[shapinglight]

It may be on the last page of the final issue...as a cliff-hanger, I wouldn't put that past Whedon.

I wouldn't either, though if he did do that, I think I would lose a great deal of respect for him.

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm back yet again to thinking that he doesn't really have any story for Spike but has just realised (belatedly) that there are actually people out there who like the character and want to see him in the story and he's now busy trying to work out how to shoehorn him in somewhere.

Optimism doesn't last long with me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Optimism doesn't last long with me.

Hee. Well, expect the worst and you're surprised when it's great. Expect the best and you're horribly disappointed when its not. So best to go into it with low expectations. ;-)

I'm afraid I'm back yet again to thinking that he doesn't really have any story for Spike but has just realised (belatedly) that there are actually people out there who like the character and want to see him in the story and he's now busy trying to work out how to shoehorn him in somewhere.

While I'm admittedly uncertain what his role will be, I'm willing to bet that what you cite above is definitively not the case.

It contradicts all of Whedon's interviews from 2005-2010 regarding the series and the character. Everything he's stated about the character - asked or otherwise. This is after all a character that he considered doing a movie on and even entitled the Spike movie, he did not consider trying a movie version for any of the other ones for a lot of reasons. For all the potential tv spin-off's, spike was the only character that was considered a definite must. Granted he may have been supporting, but Whedon and his writers had determined he'd be a part of whatever series they spun off. Plus of all the non-canon comics the only ones Whedon picked up, read, raved about, and considered co-plotting with the writer on - were the Spike comics. Not the Angel non-canon writers, but the Spike comic non-canon writer.

No, Whedon loves the character and is invested. He may just be leery of how to use him and consider him too big a gun to use lightly a la Riley or OZ or even Wood (who have been used rather lightly).

Think of it from a writing perspective not a fan perspective. From a writing perspective or plot perspective, it doesn't make sense to introduce Spike early on unless you want to dismiss him quickly. You want to build anticipation.

We may not like how he is used, but I guarantee he will be in some capacity. And that the character is important to the writer - if he weren't Whedon wouldn't have sweated over him and kept him around as long as he has.

For contrast - here's a list of characters Whedon did not care as much about or wasn't sure what to do with: Hank, Riley, Oz, Ethan, Robin Wood, Kennedy, Kate, and possibly Gunn. Look at their arcs and how he handled them. And look at Spike, Angel, Xander, Dawn, Anya,
Willow, Tara...Giles and Faith. And to a degree Cordelia.

[shapinglight]

Well, of course I hope you're right. I'd much rather you and all the optimists were right than that I was.

I just want Spike to matter.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think he matters to the writer whether or not he appears or does much in the comics. ;-) How can you watch the last twenty minutes of Beneath You, which Whedon went out of his way to redirect and rewrite, keeping people late, and with exhausted actors...when he could have just gone with Petrie's original version - and think the character didn't matter? I mean, you're a writer, would you go to all that work for a character that didn't matter? Have you?

The comics feel more like an exploration of Buffy's current emotional state as it relates to female empowerment - or another version of what he just did in Dollhouse. The role Spike plays here has a lot to do with the themes at play here.

That's the other reason I know Spike will play a role here - I just saw all of Dollhouse. Whedon tends to well...follow the same writing road map. ;-)

[shapinglight]

That's the other reason I know Spike will play a role here - I just saw all of Dollhouse. Whedon tends to well...follow the same writing road map. ;-)

This is something I had noticed. We'll see anyway. In the autumn.