Another Kitchen Sink Post: awards, fanfiction, Lost...Spuffy...

[shadowkat]

Well I downloaded Firefox and it still didn't block the pop-up ads. I also don't like how Firefox is setup. Too use to Windows Internet Explorer...evil, but comforting.

Curious about something - it's a general question, well sort of - to all who read this:

How much importance do you place on awards? By that I mean - not how much you place on getting them yourself, but how much you place on choosing to see a film, watching a tv show, or reading a story or book or something on the internet based on awards it has received?

For example:

Do you choose to watch a tv show because it won an Emmy? Or do you care?

How about a movie - would you go see a movie just because it won a bunch of awards? Would you decide to go see AVATAR if it won best picture?

What about books? Would you be more likely to read or buy a book if it won the Booker, Pulitzer, National, Hugo or Nebula book awards?

Do you choose fanfiction or metas based on the rewards they get? Or just recs?

How about music? If an album wins a Grammy - would you be more likely to listen to it?

Or does it matter? Really?

I'm curious. I know if a film, book, tv show, or piece of music wins an award it is more likely to get distributors and have a bigger marketing campaign, also the creator is more likely to get a second deal or get it extended in print or if a tv show, another season.Mad Men for example got reknewed based purely on it's critical acclaim and awards at the Emmy's and Golden Globes. It was not based on ratings, which are below most tv shows. Few people actually watch Mad Man. It has a nitch audience.

So, my question is - what is the importance to you, personally, regarding awards?

I have mixed feelings myself. I want them of course, only human. But time and experience have taught me that taste is subjective and often fickel. And most things put in competition against each other, are well, a bit like holding a competition with fruit - which is best: the apple, the grape, the orange, the banana, or the nectarine? Personally? I'd say the apple, but it depends on my mood. Can you really compare films like Avatar, Up in the Air,
Precious, Broken Embraces, Nine, Up, Inglorius Bastards, and Coraline? They are vastly different films. Or what about Lawrence of Arabia vs. To Kill a Mockingbird? In music - Taylor Swift vs. Lady Gaga??? I mean, come on, that's like comparing Kris Allen's folk/country to Adam Lambert Glam/Soul/Rock - waite they did that. Or how about Catherine Valente's Girl Who Circumvented Fairyland ( a web book) vs. Joss Whedon's video musical Doctor Horrible's Sing a Long Blog? (I can't imagine a contest that actually pitted those two vastly different creations against each other, but it happened.)

In sports - it makes more sense. We pit athelets of similar skills against each other. Skiers against Skiers, figure skaters against figure skaters. Even break it down into specific categories...so that downhill skiers aren't competing agains mogules. Or figure skaters aren't competing against speed skaters. But the arts for some reason...tends to be harder.

I don't know. I know that I will often pick a book or piece of writing that has won an award over one that hasn't. I read Bone People because it won the Booker Prize. And I've seen films that I knew were nominated for an Oscar, because they were nominated. (Since grown out of that practice, Titantic and Ghandi sort of killed it - both won, and both bored me.)
So, I guess in a way I do pay attention - out of curiousity. And like all creative people, all people, I like the recognition. Having won few awards in my lifetime - it does make me happy when I do. But I still wonder...how much importance do we place on it?



On an entirely different topic...rewatched last year's Lost season finale last night. Whoa.
That is one amazing episode. I may have to write a meta on it yet. I particularly love this exchange:

After much pain and suffering, and bad deeds, anti-hero and tragic figure, Bejamin Linus,
comes face to face with his maker or god, if you will, Jacob...who he's followed, been devoted to, and yet never seen or gotten an audience with until now...and Jacob is still more interested in someone else, or so he appears to be.

Ben to Jacob: What about me? What about me, Jacob!
Jacob: What about you?

It's so perfect. Man rails at the heavens in a narcissitic yell...and the heavens look down and wonder, seeing man as but one thread in an every expanding tapestry filled with many inter-connecting threads, all equally important, and all railing, and smiles...yes, I see you, but if you'd stop whining for a moment, you might see everyone and everything else, which lies around you.

Brilliant episode. Possibly helped by the fact that it focused primarily on Ben/Lock and Sawyer/Juliet - my two favorite pairings, and my four favorite characters on the series.
I adore those four.

This sync's nicely into a rather marvelous series of fanfiction I've been reading. Rarihah's (sp?) or the Barbverse series: Raising in the Sun, Necessary Evils, and Parilament of Monsters surprised me. I had avoided it, because I thought it was babyfic (which I can't abide - seems OOC to me in BTVS). But these three tales aren't. They aren't really Spuffy either, although Spuffy is definitely a component and if Spuffy squicks you like Bangle currently squicks me for some reason (didn't use to, does now - my rewatch last year, including I Will Always Remember You...and the Twilight series via Stephanie Meyer may have something to do with that), you probably want to avoid big time, but...if it doesn't and you are a Willow fan or a Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy fan - you want to read this. She explores Willow from just about every angle imaginable, and in a way I don't see very often. As well as the Willow/Tara relationship. Her other characters, with the possible exception of Angel, are handled quite well. She nails Xander and Xander is very likable and caring in this fic.
Not evil or romanticized. (a lot of Spike fic writers have grudges against Xander, she doesn't. I don't like grudge fic , it annoys me.) She also handles Giles well and allows Giles to be a scholar, with an academic interest in vampires. Each character is interesting.
The weakness so far is Angel - who I'm guessing the writer doesn't like and is struggling with. Angel is a hard character to write - because he is so dark and broody and angsty. People either write him like a straight-up hero with black cape billowing a la Edward in Twilight meets Nick Knight in Forever Knight (if those two had a kid and sigh, eww) or they write him as a whiny, egotistical, domineering, ass. Either makes me cringe. Here he falls more into the whiny side of the fence. Luckily he doesn't show up that much, so you can ignore it. That said, this fic is brilliant in how it discusses what vampires are, morality,
and the meaning of souls - I may not necessarily agree, but I am fascinated by the layers.
Highly recommend that you check this out, if you have not already.

As a caveat should state that while I have read quite a bit of fanfiction outside of Buffy and outside of Spuffy, stories that feature Spike and specifically Spuffy tend to be my preference. Mostly because the stupid series did not resolve the relationship in my opinion, or that character's arc to my satisfaction, so I'm still sort of hunting a resolution. See they resolved all her other ones, although they don't appear to think they did or that they audience thinks they did because they keep revisiting these relationships to the point in which I want to grab them and scream I get it! I get it! Now can you tell me what you meant at the end of Chosen, because I want to know if I interpreted that scene correctly and if the relationship is truly over because both characters have moved on, or Buffy didn't really love him in that way and just cared deeply for him as a friend and he's moved on to Illyria, or just over because Buffy thinks he's dead, but if he wasn't.... Thank you.

Comments

[rahirah]

Actually I like Angel quite a bit, though I freely admit I don't find him easy to write.

[liliaeth]

Thing is, I barely if ever watch any of the shows that do keep getting Emmy's and the shows I do watch rarely if ever get any. So no, getting an Emmy is not really an argument to get me to watch a show.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

First I want to say, I got your package today!!! Thank you so much!!! It's so fantastically nice of you that you sent it to my remote corner of the earth. *does happy dance and hugs you*

I'm still at a loss about what I can give you in return, my artistic skills are somewhat lacking but I was wondering if you'd like a paid account, since you were struggling with the stupid adds?

On your question about awards, I don't put much on them, though Mad Men was brought to my attention through the positive buzz it got and I also tend to like the stuff they give the Hugo and Nebula awards to.

On POM and Barb's verse. It's amazing how much I love those stories though the whole family thing is something I never really thought possible. But she just makes it work. About Angel, hm, it's been a while for me and I didn't particularly like or get Angel on the series so I found his characterization quite ok, especially in one of the stories set after POM where and old Spike and Angel have some adventures together. These days I've read more fic that shows a different side of Angel and I like him a lot, but I still find, that one of the traits that sets him appart from Spike the most is the brooding ans yes, occasional whining.

Talking about good fic (though one that doesn't have Angel), did you try darkapples "Imitation of a man"?

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

How much importance do you place on awards? By that I mean - not how much you place on getting them yourself, but how much you place on choosing to see a film, watching a tv show, or reading a story or book or something on the internet based on awards it has received?


None whatsoever, especially in regard to books. I've often found that the award winners are unreadable to the average reader and they would just sit on the shelves. And many of the "best selling" authors I find just plain dull.

[shapinglight]

I don't think I've ever watched or read anything on the basis of it having won awards. I do watch or read things based on reviews I read in my newspaper (the Guardian), though, except when it comes to genre fiction, about which it takes a rather snobby attitude that I've learned to ignore and make up my own mind about.

With fanfic, I sometimes click on recced fics and am glad I've done so. On the other hand, sometimes I click away again immediately. Fanfic is so much a matter of personal taste (well, like everything, I suppose).

Agree with you 100% that Buffy's relationship with Spike is the only one that remains unresolved, and yet I have the sneaking feeling that Joss doesn't agree. I can't think otherwise why he would leave Spike out of the Buffy comic entirely, except for a possible appearance in the final arc while revisiting both B/A and B/R fairly extensively.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

If I'm trying a new mystery writer it will often be because they won some award for mystery writing...
And in the past I've watched movies just because they won (or were nominated for) Best Picture, but I ended up watching a lot of films I seriously hated... So I stopped doing that. Now I am more influenced by the recommendations of friends and family.

With TV, I've usually made up my own mind long before the Emmys are awarded. It makes me happy when a show I love gets an Emmy because I think that that will help keep it on the air, but a boat load of emmies won't get me to watch a show I've already rejected.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, in the beginning (and after the later quotes I tend to think so again) I thought that he was keeping Spike in the shadows because he knew that he was the big unresolved thing that's left from the show.

Everything else was pretty much tied up and the weird idea that Spike does not immideately contact Buffy was already established in S5 of Angel, so there was no rush.

I keep hoping this is for maximum effect, that the one who comes last will matter the most.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I keep hoping this is for maximum effect, that the one who comes last will matter the most.

Well that does actually fit Whedon's particular brand of story structure. The mislead. The tease. The hint.
The build of anticipation. Leaving the things that are the most unresolved for the last act. It's how he keeps readers in the game.

And...if he didn't think Spike was important? He'd have written him off much the same way he did Robin Wood in the first year.

No...if you look at Whedon's story-telling structure, that fits. I remember reading that if Whedon had his way in Angel S5 - we wouldn't have seen Spike until the fourth or fifth episode, but the network insisted he include him earlier. And remember how slowly Angel was reintroduced in S3...took a little while.

Considering the comics are drawn out - ie. a tv season over the space of four years..? This would make logical sense.

I can totally see Whedon doing that.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I can see him do it too, though I'm not too happy with his timing sometimes. I think I'd be fine if it came out all during one year, but stretched over four this season has had to many lenghts.

But I hope the finale will make up for some of it and I'm somewhat convinced now that Spike was helf back for dramatic ipact for the reasons you named.

If he really thought he wasn't important he would have written him out by now.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

First of all, congratulations for the nomination at Wickedawards. It's a justified ackowledgement of the quality of your analysis in this meta.

Awards now, however prestigious, aren't by themselves, for me, sufficient incitation enough to go and make me watch a film, a series, or buy a book. Reviews and critics are more important in this regard that their analysis can wake in me a real interest for the work in question. But it's not foolproof either: some critics can be very elogious and they'll still be insufficient as a motivation because some subjects are just boring to me. In fanfic awards were never a guide for my reading, but knowing a fic or a meta I've appreciated has been awarded makes me happy for the author. It's an acknowledgement of her/his work.

"Mostly because the stupid series did not resolve the relationship in my opinion, or that character's arc to my satisfaction, so I'm still sort of hunting a resolution." :). See, my reaction to that is quite different. I don't mind the ambiguity mostly because IMO Spike gained much more important things (humanity, respect, coming into his own, one moment of real effulgence which is much more than the great majority of humans will ever have in this world...)in this relationship than just a lovestory (I know, I'm cynic)however passionnate and because I think Buffy's irresolution in regard to him is already some sort of answer (from a romantic POV). So in regard to Spike, not a problem. The situation in regard to Buffy is different though, I agree it's still an interrogation mark in her character, but not one that'll bother me : why not let some mystery in a character, after all?

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

I was going to say awards don't matter to me, but then you mentioned books. Back in the day when I was reading a lot of science fiction, I would be more likely to buy something that had won a Hugo or Nebula Award if I didn't already know the author. With books there is just so much to sort through, some of it very marginal, that I sometimes appreciate a little help in choosing.

On the other hand I can't say that a Pulitzer Prize for literature would influence me much, because I'm not into that sort of fiction most of the time.

TV awards are just popularity contests and fluff in my opinion. By the time the Oscars roll around there are usually plenty of reports about the best movies are without worrying about who wins anything in the end.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've come to the conclusion that the following two characters are the hardest to write:

Buffy

Angel.

I think it's because they are the leads and leaders? (shrugs)

Angel...I'm only on Chapter 3 of Parilament of Monsters, so I may change my mind. ;-)

The bit that felt OOC for me was his decision to work with the Council to remove Buffy from Spike. I just don't see Angel doing that. But I know mileage varies on this, and I am reading the fic to see your perspective...after all. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You're very welcome!!!

I'm still at a loss about what I can give you in return, my artistic skills are somewhat lacking but I was wondering if you'd like a paid account, since you were struggling with the stupid adds?

Oh, no need. Really! Back in the day, I had a lot of people send me stuff that I could not find any way of giving anything whatsover back. So, I consider this a sort of "pay it forward".;-)

Talking about good fic (though one that doesn't have Angel), did you try darkapples "Imitation of a man"?

I did try it, but it either didn't fit my mood or wasn't to my taste. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

With fanfic, I sometimes click on recced fics and am glad I've done so. On the other hand, sometimes I click away again immediately. Fanfic is so much a matter of personal taste (well, like everything, I suppose).

Agree with you 100% on this one. There was a fic by darkapple heavily rec'd on my flist that I clicked on, made it through about the first 30 pages, before rolling my eyes and giving up.
It just wasn't to my taste. It truly is a subjective thing.

Agree with you 100% that Buffy's relationship with Spike is the only one that remains unresolved, and yet I have the sneaking feeling that Joss doesn't agree. I can't think otherwise why he would leave Spike out of the Buffy comic entirely, except for a possible appearance in the final arc while revisiting both B/A and B/R fairly extensively.

I'm uncertain what Joss thinks about this. There is a valid argument for not including him which candlefeather provides below. The gist of which is why kill a great arc, and isn't a little bit of mystery a good thing??

BUT...From a pure logical reasoning/story analysis/plot/character arc perspective? It just does not make sense that Whedon would deliberately and significantly address all of Willow's significant romantic relationships, and almost all of Buffy's, except for Spike. Granted Whedon has not done all of Xander's - but the Buffy and Willow are the focus here, not Xander. Xander is basically just another love interest and appears to have little role outside of that. (And it is precisely for that reason - that I think Whedon is building to something here. The comics are focusing far too much on romantic relationships for it not to be important. If they weren't, like the Angel comics, I'd shrug it off, but they are. We have whole issues focused on them.

I think flakesake is right - Whedon is clearly building up to something here with Spike. In his last interview, Whedon more or less states as much. Just not what. And even people who don't like the character of Spike have picked up on the hints and teases - so much so, they thought he was Twilight. (Heck for a while that was my fear theory. Because that's how it is set up, and I've seen a story very similar to this one done like that before (*cough*WolverineasDeathinXmen*cough*).)

I also think it has something to do with the male/female gender roles in traditional romantic relationships. At least that's the pattern I see emerging here. We start with Satsu as true love's kiss - Satsu is basically Spike as a female slayer in many ways. She's gay, Buffy is embarrassed and wants to hide it,
and yet in some respects she feels closer to Satsu and has great/amazing sex with her. Then we move to her scene with Angel, and the dream of being back in high school, freshman year, when she first met him. Next up is Riley. Then Xander.
And soon, well, Angel again in the flesh. Whedon likes to bookend things. We started with Ethain leading her through her dream, an unrequited lover waking her up, Buffy coming face to face with two men who thought she didn't love them...and losing them because of it (Xander/Riley)...then to the core of that problem...and finally??

So, yes, I think Spike's going to play a major role here, I'm just not sure what it is or how much screen time he'll get.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

If I'm trying a new mystery writer it will often be because they won some award for mystery writing...

I'm more or less the same way...but usually it's rec's or reviews more than critical acclaim.

And in the past I've watched movies just because they won (or were nominated for) Best Picture, but I ended up watching a lot of films I seriously hated... So I stopped doing that. Now I am more influenced by the recommendations of friends and family.

Sigh. Ditto. 100% agree.

The number of bad films that have been nominated for or won an award is staggering.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sharing your perspective...and I don't entirely disagree with you...in some respects, I agree. But...

I'm not sure if you are reading the comics or not? And how spoiled you are??

For me, I still want or need something more from the story, not necessarily a romantic ending per se...but a bit more. It's hard to explain. I want closure. Granted that does NOT happen in real life. In real life...what you state above is what happens. I know that's been my own experience. But in stories - we often want the opposite of our own experience. We want the closures that we don't get in real life. Not always, but sometimes.

Regarding mystery? I'm all for a little mystery in a character, and there is actually still quite a bit, but not on this point.

The problem a lot of writer's have and Whedon is increasingly falling into this category for me is they tell you far too much about one thing, not enough about another. I could live a very long time without knowing anything more about Andrew, Amy or Warren. ;-)

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Slips in to bodily protect Andrew from your wrath (he, everybody has one's guilty pleasures) but you can have Amy and Warren... :D

No, I don't read the comics (the transposition of characters so brilliantly incarnated by living talented actors to flat paper drawings... not my thing at all, or it would require somebody much more talented and with much more finesse and understanding than Jeanty)but J Whedon's ideas and writings interest me, so I read the reviews with interest (your's, Stromwreath's, Angearia's, Maggie's and other's too). My take on the story is only indirect and I lack many details, but I'm more or less up to date on the general outlines.
"It's hard to explain. I want closure." It certainly is, but could you try to explain on what point you want a closure (if it pleases you of course)?
If by closure you mean,as your own post seems to suggest knowing, amongst other things, if the ILY was really meant, I'm not sure Whedon will ever clarify that. The relationship he described between the two characters (at least it's my take on it) is one of these rare relationships that can't be defined by one or even several words but are so deep, so complex that they go to the every roots of the being and leave you incredibly richer as well as marked for the rest of your life. I'm not sure a real closure is possible for such relationships because their legacy is living in the being (I'm not sure I can better explain what I mean) but they certainly can change and evolve.

In regard what will happen in the comics, Maggie's posts and your's, have convinced me for a long time now that there were reasons to see Spike come back. And his role will probably be significant or all the careful build up to it ("teasings", foreshadowing, obstinate silence...) wouldn't be worth the effort. And of course I'm happy about that and curious (though a "little" anxious -rolls eyes at herself for being in love with a character!)to see what Whedon will do with him.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Actually when I said that about books I was thinking about when I started reading Laurie R. King she had already won an 'Edgar' (I think that was the award, and I think it was for best new comer)... but really I probably would have given ANY author a try who entitled their first book: "The Beekeeper's Apprentice".

I think part of my problem w/Oscar nominated/winning movies is that I don't find 'gritty' all that appealing. I sat through 'Boogie Nights' and wished I hadn't, so since then I've avoided the violent, and gritty films that some people in Hollywood clearly love. I prefer films that are uplifting, and while I guess theoretically some things can do both.... I'm just not up for continuing to experiment on them.

I would rather watch my favorite TV shows than the vast majority of movies coming out of Hollywood now days.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Slips in to bodily protect Andrew from your wrath (he, everybody has one's guilty pleasures) but you can have Amy and Warren...

Hee. No need. I don't mind Andrew so much, just a bit tired of the character. That said, Predators and Prey which focused on him may well have been one of the better issues of the series - and it was oddly enough written by Doug Petrie. Doug Petrie seems better equipped to write for comics than Espenson. Who knew?

I love comics - possibly because I used to tell myself stories while drawing people and always fantasized about being able to draw a story. When I discovered that others had done this? I was in heaven. Pictures with words? Cool. So tend to be fairly tolerant of the art and adept at interpreting it. Been reading the things off and on for over 20 years. I'd given up on them or thought I had in 2001, until Whedon got me hooked again. I'm half hoping he'll either screw up the comics or just satisfy me enough...that I can wash my hands of it again. Because I really don't have the space to keep the things.

As for the art? It could be much worse. I've seen much worse.
It could be arty - like Persepolis or RR. Crumb, or boxy like the old super-hero action comics. This is actually pretty decent...if you know the alternatives. And since I tend to visualize stories while I read them...the art doesn't really phase me, I still see SMG, NB, AH, and all in my head playing and acting the roles, same as fanfic.

Will answer your other question in a separate reply.

[rahirah]

Well, my take is (and I'm not saying this has to be anyone else's take at all) that Angel can be a really ruthless bastard on occasion, and (at that point, anyway) he really despises unsouled Spike and doesn't believe that a soulless vampire is deserving of a 'fair fight' or anything like that. (I have a similar take on Giles's attempt to have Spike killed in canon.) But this series covers about fifty years of the character's lives, and... well, I'll just say that Angel's relationships with the other characters undergo a lot of changes in that period. Which doesn't mean you'd find it any more convincing, if you brave the portions with babies in them to get that far, but I guarantee it would be different. *g*

[rahirah]

FWIW, at around the end of chapter 3, "Imitation of a Man" takes a massive left turn at Albuquerque and turns into an incredibly suspenseful and well-paced historical thriller.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

""It's hard to explain. I want closure."" It certainly is, but could you try to explain on what point you want a closure (if it pleases you of course)?

I guess, I can try. Not sure it will work...because in order to understand, you may have to love the character of "Buffy" as much as the character of Spike (which I do), and have watched all of Angel the Series, plus have stuck with the comics for three to four years. And engaged in pointless and unending arguments with B/A and B/X shippers. (there are quite a few on my flist) LOL! ;-)

After the show finished, I wrote a lengthy fanfic - about 50 pages, entitled No Regrets - it is posted on my lj somewhere, if you want to try it. A what-if tale, about a 40 year old Buffy climbing a mountain to visit a 40 year old Spike who shanshued and has become a bit of a recluse. She's living with Faith, not as lovers, so much as close friends/sisters, since Buffy doesn't strike me as anything other than straight to the bone. Not the best thing in the world, but my attempt at addressing some unresolved issues I had with the series. It didn't resolve them.

If by closure you mean,as your own post seems to suggest knowing, amongst other things, if the ILY was really meant, I'm not sure Whedon will ever clarify that.

I actually do agree with you on this and have argued the same myself in the past. Grown weary of arguing it actually. And I can see/understand the other interpretations. Whedon did write Chosen in a manner that was not clear and could be loosely interpreted. Angel's presence did not help. Nor did the atrocious cookie dough speech. All of which depending on your pov is either brilliant writing or really bad writing. ;-)

So no, it is not whether she meant ILY, because I am pretty certain that she did. Just as I am certain that she wanted him to leave with her and not stay and get burned to a crisp. Nor is it really a competition - which boy does she love the most. Because experience has taught me that you can love more than one person, just in different ways. I think what Andrew stated in Girl in Question made a lot of sense - she loves them both, for different reasons and in a different ways - which are about as comparable as asking me whether I love BSG or Buffy more. I love them differently. Nor is it whether he knew that she loved him - I'm pretty certain he knew and his response was not meant as a cancellation of that love or a denial of it, so much as an acknowledgment of it, and a reiteration of his own deep love and respect for her. He was basically letting her go in a way that he hoped would allow her to move on in a positive manner. Which is why he doesn't go after her, and is why he tells Andrew not to tell her that he is alive - because that would cancel out what he did - which was to free her from her obligation to him or to anyone like him. They basically liberated each other.

At least that is what I saw. I am not certain it is what was intended.
And Whedon may never make that clear. You are correct on that point.
Nor am I certain if Buffy wanted Spike to leave...this is a woman who has had every guy she's been romantically attached to, leave at some point or another, in much the same way her father did. Spike, interestingly enough, did not leave - until he died.

I think what I want to know is how she reacted to Spike being alive, which seems fairly minor I know, but I want to know. And how she feels about the fact that he chose not to come to her. I want to know if she was "in love" with him or just "loved" him. What she'd do if he were to appear in her life again. I'm not sure. I'm not sure she knows. This is a character that resonates for me, that I identified with on a certain level. I want to know what he meant to her, who he was to her...and yes, I think Whedon plans on addressing that on some level - because he said so in so many words.

Buffy and Spike's story still feels open-ended to me...like a loose thread in a tapestry that I want to fix. I don't necessarily see them riding off into the sunset together...I just want some of my nagging questions resolved...if that makes sense? It may not. Like I said hard to explain, because I'm not entirely sure why myself.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

So, I basically just have to hang in there until chapter 3? Will try again.

I have this kindle thing which makes it a lot easier to read some fanfic - depending on where it is located.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed on all points. Whedon has stretched this story out far too thinly. I'm reading rarhiha's fanfic at the moment and it is so much tighter. Considering it's a novel and no pictures, that's saying something. Comics need to be tight. We have to wait too long to get each issue. And Whedon has a nasty habit of taking month or two month long writer breaks or artist breaks...due to either writers block or being too busy with other projects.

Sigh. I wasn't such a stubborn person, I'd have given up ages ago. That and the fact that I'm rather enjoying discussing it with the fandom. ;-)

Anyhow..I agree if Whedon thought Spike wasn't important, he'd have gotten a two page scene a la Principal Wood in No Future for You and by another writer. Plus Whedon has stated on more than one occassion that he has plans for the character.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't disagree - Angel can be an incredibly ruthless bastard. And it would make sense that he'd despise unsouled Spike at that time. I just found it tough to read...because you made me hate Angel. (which, hmmm, I guess was actually what you intended?) I think Angleshippers would have troubles with your fic, but then I think they are going to have problems with the Buffy comics too and those are being produced and written by Whedon - where, ahem, a certain character is doing far worse things to a certain slayer. (I have a lot of Angelshippers and B/A shippers on my flist, although most of them have lost all interest in Buffy. So when I write reviews...or meta, I'm stuck sometimes attempting to write for an audience that well...is across a pretty broad spectrum. I don't always succeed...thankfully, they are a tolerant bunch and don't seem to care outside of an occasional vehement argument. ;-) )

At any rate, I do agree - both Giles and Angel have a ruthless streak. I can see both of them doing all sorts of nasty things to Buffy or others, then justifying it. Heck they both have in the series. So, that is a good point.

[rebekahroxanna.livejournal.com]

On Firefox, you have to block ad sites. Somewhere you can find a list you can automatically upload. I'm sorry I don't remember what I did, but it isn't automatic as I had supposed.

On awards. Yes, an award can push me to watch something or lead me to read something. For movies, reviews and "buzz" is more important.

[rahirah]

Well, I can't say for sure it won't still make you eyeroll, but the first three chapters aren't completely representative of the story as a whole, let's say.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

None whatsoever, especially in regard to books. I've often found that the award winners are unreadable to the average reader and they would just sit on the shelves. And many of the "best selling" authors I find just plain dull.

Unfortunately, very true.

I was an English Lit major once upon a time and remember being forced to read dozens of books that they considered the literary canon. Some I remember fondly, others...I remember thinking yes this is written beautifully, the technique is quite amazing, but I'm either bored stiff or I want to kill the writer for subjecting me to this. LOL!

Also, I know a little something about how these "awards" are selected in the industry and it ain't pretty. A lot of nepotism and favoritism is involved that has zip to do with the novel, and everything to do with the politics of the publishing and academic worlds. So, while some books were deserving, most aren't. The Academy Awards aka Oscars is the same thing. They are little more than popularity contests. People vote for their friends. ;-)

Bestsellers...I think the trick to a best-seller is to find something that appeals to the vast majority of people that would buy a book in an airport to read on the plane. It can be offensive - but only if it is in a way the sparks curiosity and not loathing.

[Hmm..Firefox has a built-in spell check, did not know this. It explains so much!]

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Now you've sparked my curiosity. But I have to finish Parliament of Monsters first.

I'm fascinated by your exploration of the vampire/slayer mythology.
You are basically hitting some of the bits that I desperately wanted to be explored in the series and comics and just aren't. As much as I love Whedon's writing...he seems to be fairly traditional in some respects.

I also agree with your interpretation of Spike/Buffy - you appear to see the two characters in much the same way I do in some respects. My difficulty with a lot of Spuffy fics - is often the writer will write Buffy as a hard nasty bitch. It was a problem I had with herself's fic - her Buffy often came across as a bit too hard/too brutal for my taste and her Spike too vulnerable/too self-loathing. That said, I still loved her fic "Whatever She Deserves" and it's sequel.

I'm admittedly picky, comes from over-analyzing the characters, I suspect. ;-)

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Thank you for answering. I love comics too (BD -bandes dessinées- as we say in France). I grew up with them: the old Marvins at first then the authors who worked for Pilote during the old sixties-seventies. There have been fairly creative "schools" of comics both in France and in Belgium.

You're right Jeanty's work is decent, it's just that after having seen the characters so vividly interpreted by the actors, the guy would need to be a real genious (like something of the Leonard de Vinci of the comics artists :-)) to be able to convince me. I'm not keen on F Urru's work either for the same reason.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

As you say your own perspective is shaped by an experience that encompasses a whole lot more than the reading of the show. And of course ti's differnet from mine, so it makes certain points difficult to understand.

But your analysis of the last S/B scene is exactly how I read it (word for word) with an emphasis on the idea of freedom for both. I've encountered other interpretations of the scene, but if the ones that give the word love a friendly meaning seem perfectly adept in the context of the story, many others don't make sense at all because the picture they give of Buffy is repulsive and I have a hard time believing JW would propose as an icon a girl who has an IQ and a spiritual, emotional life equivalent to this of a slug. (Note that I in no way say she had to fall in love romantically with Spike, well you love who you love).
Thank you again for trying to explain things that are not easy to understand.

[shapinglight]

:crosses fingers that you're right while not quite able to convince myself that Joss will make Spike as important - let alone more important - than Angel:

[shapinglight]

So, yes, I think Spike's going to play a major role here, I'm just not sure what it is or how much screen time he'll get.

Well, it can't be much. At the most generous estimate, it can't be more than 5 issues' worth of a 40 issue series.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hey, at this point, I'd be happy if we got one issue that focused on it. As long as Whedon resolves the issue..I really don't care. ;-)

More or less figured out what he's probably doing with Angel based on what he did on Dollhouse, I'm just not sure about Spike. Except that he spent a lot of time on both series, Angel and Buffy, building up Spike's relationships with Angel and Buffy respectively, and keeps referring to the fact that he is important to both of them in the comics...so from a purely objective pov - he has to show up in some capacity at some point. It may be on the last page of the final issue...as a cliff-hanger, I wouldn't put that past Whedon.

[shapinglight]

It may be on the last page of the final issue...as a cliff-hanger, I wouldn't put that past Whedon.

I wouldn't either, though if he did do that, I think I would lose a great deal of respect for him.

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm back yet again to thinking that he doesn't really have any story for Spike but has just realised (belatedly) that there are actually people out there who like the character and want to see him in the story and he's now busy trying to work out how to shoehorn him in somewhere.

Optimism doesn't last long with me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Optimism doesn't last long with me.

Hee. Well, expect the worst and you're surprised when it's great. Expect the best and you're horribly disappointed when its not. So best to go into it with low expectations. ;-)

I'm afraid I'm back yet again to thinking that he doesn't really have any story for Spike but has just realised (belatedly) that there are actually people out there who like the character and want to see him in the story and he's now busy trying to work out how to shoehorn him in somewhere.

While I'm admittedly uncertain what his role will be, I'm willing to bet that what you cite above is definitively not the case.

It contradicts all of Whedon's interviews from 2005-2010 regarding the series and the character. Everything he's stated about the character - asked or otherwise. This is after all a character that he considered doing a movie on and even entitled the Spike movie, he did not consider trying a movie version for any of the other ones for a lot of reasons. For all the potential tv spin-off's, spike was the only character that was considered a definite must. Granted he may have been supporting, but Whedon and his writers had determined he'd be a part of whatever series they spun off. Plus of all the non-canon comics the only ones Whedon picked up, read, raved about, and considered co-plotting with the writer on - were the Spike comics. Not the Angel non-canon writers, but the Spike comic non-canon writer.

No, Whedon loves the character and is invested. He may just be leery of how to use him and consider him too big a gun to use lightly a la Riley or OZ or even Wood (who have been used rather lightly).

Think of it from a writing perspective not a fan perspective. From a writing perspective or plot perspective, it doesn't make sense to introduce Spike early on unless you want to dismiss him quickly. You want to build anticipation.

We may not like how he is used, but I guarantee he will be in some capacity. And that the character is important to the writer - if he weren't Whedon wouldn't have sweated over him and kept him around as long as he has.

For contrast - here's a list of characters Whedon did not care as much about or wasn't sure what to do with: Hank, Riley, Oz, Ethan, Robin Wood, Kennedy, Kate, and possibly Gunn. Look at their arcs and how he handled them. And look at Spike, Angel, Xander, Dawn, Anya,
Willow, Tara...Giles and Faith. And to a degree Cordelia.

[shapinglight]

Well, of course I hope you're right. I'd much rather you and all the optimists were right than that I was.

I just want Spike to matter.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think he matters to the writer whether or not he appears or does much in the comics. ;-) How can you watch the last twenty minutes of Beneath You, which Whedon went out of his way to redirect and rewrite, keeping people late, and with exhausted actors...when he could have just gone with Petrie's original version - and think the character didn't matter? I mean, you're a writer, would you go to all that work for a character that didn't matter? Have you?

The comics feel more like an exploration of Buffy's current emotional state as it relates to female empowerment - or another version of what he just did in Dollhouse. The role Spike plays here has a lot to do with the themes at play here.

That's the other reason I know Spike will play a role here - I just saw all of Dollhouse. Whedon tends to well...follow the same writing road map. ;-)

[shapinglight]

That's the other reason I know Spike will play a role here - I just saw all of Dollhouse. Whedon tends to well...follow the same writing road map. ;-)

This is something I had noticed. We'll see anyway. In the autumn.