Did Xander tell Angel about the AR scene (which had occurred in Seeing Red)?

[shadowkat]

This came up as a question in a post by shapinglight in regards to a fic she was writing. But I got curious...so a poll:

Do you think Xander told Angel about the AR scene in Seeing Red? (Assuming of course, Xander interacted with Angel after Chosen. Because honestly that's the only time I think he could have told him.)

Note: "The Question should read: Do you think Xander told Angel about Spike's attempted rape or AR of Buffy? (Obviously he couldn't have done it in Seeing Red - Angel was tied up with Holtz and Connor at the time.)

[Poll #1815236]

Comments

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

Funny, considering how much I dislike Xander at times I don't think he would have even If he'd been pals with Angel. He's hot headed enough to have told Dawn in the middle of an apocalypse but actually thinking about it and calling Angel.. Way too impractical and he wouldn't think it's any of Angel's business.
Plus, I'd only maybe hurt Buffy and whatever you say o the guy, I don't think he would try to hurt her even more.

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

I think since the questions starts "would" I immediately inferred that the question pertains to a hypothetical situation in which Angel and Xander were in the same place/having a conversation anyway. Calling out the blue? Possibly only if he had word that Spike was in LA.

I imagine this:

A: Spike has a soul.... Weird, huh?
X: 'specially after what he did
A: hubuh????

Or you know.... Something like that.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

Again, Xander would only tell Angel I'd he wanted to somehow hurt Buffy and... No.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I tried to make the question clearer - by stating that it had to be after Chosen.

The only time I can see Angel speaking to Xander is if the group drove through LA on their way to the airport and Europe. Assuming they stopped by Angel's domain to tell him what happened. If they did? I still don't see Xander telling Angel that Spike got his soul because he attempted to rape Buffy.
Actually I don't see them talking at all. I think Xander and Angel would have avoided each other like the plague.

[elisi]

The guy just died saving the world... Does ANYONE believe that Xander is petty enough to bring up the dark past? Esp to someone like Angel whome Xander can't stand anyway? If so, then I don't like that person's interpretation of Xander and would prefer to stay far away.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

Yep. Even if Xander were petty enough ( and I don't Think he is) Tellin on Spike to Angel is completely OIT of characters.

Hee I've read enough Xander bashing fic where something like that happens that i feel is Also a huge clue to believe he wouldn't.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you. This question came out of a thread on shapinglight's post - where I more or less stated that Angel did not know about the AR and there's no way Spike would tell him. Various posters stated that the only person who might tell Angel would have been Xander - Xander did have a tendency to blurt things out. That's how Riley found out about Buffy's relationship with Angel.

But Xander hates Angel. They don't interact let alone talk. Xander would never call Angel and Angel would never call Xander. And if Xander were to tell Angel it would have had to have been around Seeing Red - which doesn't work, because hello, Angel was tied up at the time and on his way to the ocean's floor. And again, Xander would have had to call him...and I don't see him doing that.

This leaves Chosen, it was suggested that Xander told Angel in LA after Chosen. But you're right...1)why would Xander and Angel have even had that conversation? 2) Spike just saved the world and Xander actually had a somewhat decent relationship with Spike...they lived together more than once.
3) Xander hates Angel, and vice versa. Why would Xander give Angel information on Spike that Angel could use against Buffy or Spike or would make Angel feel superior?

No..it does not work. But I was curious to see what other's thought. Because there were a few people on the thread who thought it could happen.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I believe he would, yes. :)

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

I can see a couple situations where he would. Remember, the last Angel saw of Buffy was the first he knew that Buffy and Spike were involved. I can see Angel sitting down and asking questions - maybe a drink with Xander because - hey, we're both grown ups now. I can see it slipping out there. They sit down and talk and Angel wants to know how long things have been going on, and so on. Drunk Xander being pumped by Angel would spill even if he wasn't angry. (And ohmigawd, I have so been posting here too long because that just sounds sooo wrong!)

I can also see the possibility of Xander ending up talking to Cordelia in the season between 5 & 6. (post AR but pre-soul).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I can also see the possibility of Xander ending up talking to Cordelia in the season between 5 & 6. (post AR but pre-soul).

Really? I can't see them talking at all. They were barely on speaking terms at the end of S3. It was Willow who kept Cordy up to date.
And only Willow stayed in touch.

And if they did talk...why on earth would Xander tell Cordy about Buffy's love life with Spike? Again they weren't exactly chatting buddies. Can you see Cordy telling Xander she's dating Angel??

I can see Angel sitting down and asking questions - maybe a drink with Xander because - hey, we're both grown ups now.

Again why would they share drinks? They don't like each other. They can avoid one another. Plus Angel was never the most mature character on the planet. Neither is Xander for that matter.

Plus..do you tell your best bud's ex, who you despise, that her current ex (who you actually preferred and liked a lot better and saved your life several times and lived with you) got his soul after attempting to rape her, knowing full well that this ex that you despise would use it to hurt someone? I don't think so.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sorry, re-read this...and it doesn't come across the way I wanted tone wise. Shouldn't post during lunch or work for that matter. ;-)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm going to say that I doubt it not because Xander wouldn't say it if he ran across Angel, but because I think Xander dislikes Angel intensely, and for that reason alone never would've called.

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

Yes, THIS. Xander loathes Angel. There's no way he would ever tell him something like this.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I can't imagine them talking. Have they spoken since...I don't know Pangs? Even if they ran across each other in LA - on the way to Europe after Chosen, I don't see it coming up. These two characters would cross to the other side of the road to avoid talking to each other.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

yes, that is exactly what I think: they don't like each other well enough to talk about anything, particularly anything about Buffy (and if Angel had known he would have attacked Spike with it...).

[rahirah]

I don't think there's any hard evidence that Angel knows about it, so there can't be any hard evidence of anyone telling him. In canon, I doubt that Angel knows, or he would have used it as another reason to get rid of Spike when he first materialized, or used it against Spike in Destiny.

Do I think Xander would be capable of telling Angel if circumstances had been different, and Angel had been around in the latter part of S6? Yes. Xander was at a personal low point, seething with resentment and self-hatred which he was more than willing to take out on Spike even before Spike tried to rape Buffy. It was also heavily implied that he was drinking more than was good for him. If he'd happened to run into Angel at the wrong time, and thought that telling Angel would result in Spike getting beat up or killed, I don't think it's impossible that he would have dropped some pretty broad hints, and then spilled when Angel pressured him for more. I think he'd probably have regretted it later, but...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agree on the point that if Xander had run into Angel in Two to Go or in Seeing Red - after it happened - that he'd have told him. That's around the time he told Dawn.

But I can't see that happening either in canon or not. There was no reason for Angel to be in Sunnydale in S6, besides the fact that he had his hands full in LA, Buffy and Angel were clearly not in contact after their regrettable reunion that ended in a fried food binge. Angel had also moved on to Cordy and Connor. It would have to go completely AU - for that to happen. Logistically? Impossible.

[rahirah]

I kinda took the original question over at Shapinglight's as a hypothetical - not so much DID Xander tell as would Xander have told had the opportunity arisen at the time. A lot of people seem to be saying that no, Xander would never have told under any circumstances 'cause he's just too noble and upstanding a guy. Which doesn't quite work for me in that timeframe - S6 was Xander at his most assholish.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

That's how I understood the question too. And I agree with you that he would tell if the circumstances were right.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, that's not the impression I got. As dlgood states quite well below - this is just NOT a topic men tend to discuss with each other and Angel and Xander definitely wouldn't. Angelus might. Parker? Possibly - he certainly did with Riley. But generally? No.

Keep in mind the relationship between Angel and Xander...it would be like Xander telling Warren or Andrew. I don't think he'd have told Riley, for that matter.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And it's notable that the vast majority of men responding, regardless of their feelings towards Xander - say, uh, no. Again men aren't comfortable discussing rape for obvious reasons.

[rahirah]

I don't see it as Xander having a chat with a buddy. If Angel had been around during the time when I can see Xander being in the mood to tell (which he wasn't) and if Xander had told, I think it would have been purely out of a desire for revenge against Spike, not because he wanted a heart-to-heart with Angel. Realistic or not, there are plenty of pop culture tropes about men ganging up to Avenge The Honor Of Their Wimmin, and I think it would fall into that area, if it had happened, which I don't think it did. Not that I think Buffy's honor needs avenging, and if it does, she can do it herself.

I think this is a totally different hypothetical situation from Spike and Angel discussing the AR - I agree that it's very unlikely that Spike would ever bring that up. (Though I would not have expected Spike to discuss his mother's death with anyone, either, and yet he blurted it out in public to Wesley.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think it would have been purely out of a desire for revenge against Spike, not because he wanted a heart-to-heart with Angel. Realistic or not, there are plenty of pop culture tropes about men ganging up to Avenge The Honor Of Their Wimmin, and I think it would fall into that area, if it had happened,

Riley, yes. Angel, no. This analysis only works if you view Xander as perceiving Angel at that stage as being Buffy's boyfriend or for that matter revenging Buffy's honor. I don't think Xander sees Angel in that way. If anything, he sees Angel as a problem, someone to revenge Buffy against.

If this was S3 or S4? Maybe. But doubtful. Xander really doesn't look at Angel the way you do. He sees Angel as the worse than Spike. Also, I don't think he sees Angel as capable of taking Spike out per se. Remember Spike helped them take out Angel in S2.

If Xander were to tell anyone at that stage it would have been Giles.
And he didn't. Partly because Willow was a far bigger problem, and let's face it - Spike had skedaddled. Also Xander - if you'll remember didn't anyone to take out Spike. Could only fight Buffy and vampires, Xander could stake Spike with little problem - since Spike had a chip which made it impossible for Spike to attack Xander.

So why would Xander tell Angel? Xander sees Angel as an evil vampire.
He wouldn't see Angel as helping him, from Xander's perspective, Angel might help Spike.

I'm sorry, Xander just did not have that sort of relationship with Angel. He hated Angel more than he hated Spike. And I seriously doubt he saw Angel as a major threat to Spike - Spike had after all fought off some serious foes. And Buffy stopped Xander from going after Spike himself.

It still doesn't work. It's not because I think Xander's a great guy necessarily, I just don't think Xander views Angel the way you do.
Riley? Yes, he'd have done that with Riley. Maybe. But the mere fact he doesn't do it with Giles, suggests otherwise.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh - I should add...remember the last time Xander asked Angel to help him with Spike? I'm betting Xander does. It was in School Hard, and Angel used Xander as bait...if I were Xander I would not tell Angel a damn thing. I wouldn't frigging trust Angel.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

No way. There was a point of having Xander stop complaining about Spike after Selfless (and even excluded himself from arguments about Spike, when Anya for example tried to bring him into one in Never Leave Me). But even if there wasn't, he dislikes Angel.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You're right, he stopped complaining after Selfless and took Spike in after Selfless. That was the turning point in the Buffy/Xander relationship. He finally got to see things through her eyes. In other words, Xander walked a mile in Buffy's shoes and found them to be a bit tighter than expected.

No way, he would do it after that episode. If he told it would have had to be before that episode. After that episode, he never brought up the attempted rape, serial killer, or anything about Spike again.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

He only told Dawn cause she kept harping to him about how awesome Spike was--the whole "If Spike were here," business, implying Xander wasn't good enough. So Xander had that, the bad taste the situation left in his mouth, and then of course the duress of his BFF being batshit insane, trying to kill them all. I don't think Xander would have even told Dawn under normal circumstances, and he certainly wouldn't have told Angel...what would that accomplish? Maybe if Faith had still been there and their history had been rewritten, he may have told her like he told her about Angel in s3, expecting her to take him out. And even that would have to be right in the moment, and he'd have to have no distraction.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I agree with your reason to why he told Dawn. He would never have told her if she didn't keep praising Spike like that. He shouldn't have said anything but it's understandable why he did.

Also, if Xander really wante to tell people about what Spike had done, why not Willow his best friend? Why not Anya? Why did he have to whisper it to Buffy in Beneath You?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree. And good points on Anya and Willow. Why would Xander tell Cordelia or Angel, if he didn't tell either Anya or Willow? Or even Giles for that matter? If Xander were to tell any male character it would be Giles.

He only told Riley about Angel...because a)he was close to Riley and identified with the guy, and b)it was situational...he and Buffy weren't exactly getting along. Similar to what happened with
Dawn.

I can't see a reason or a situation for him to tell Angel. It's too out of character. The problem with a lot of fanfic writers who write Xander, I've noticed, is they can't abide the character...so he does things that make no sense in their fic and throw me out of their stories.
The important thing to remember about Xander - is
that he came from a domestic violence situation, and fears becoming his father - an alcoholic abusive husband who verbally and physically beats women. It's why he left Anya at the wedding. People who come from that situation - often go out of their way not to repeat their parents mistakes. They may say cutting things, but there's certain topics they don't discuss and are very sensitive too. Rape being amongst them. I can't see Xander talking about it unless you really really pushed him. Anymore than I can see Spike doing it. And certainly not to Angel of all people.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Good points. Everything about Xander's character boils down to his homelife: the bad temper, the sexist jokes, the mean spirited streak, the way he could never get his point across without yelling.

It's also telling that we've never seen Xander drunk. Yes, there was that period after leaving Anya at the altar when he started drinking more often than he should, but he never got to the point of being drunk the way his friends and other characters did. It seemed like he'd always been careful with the amount of alcohol he'd drink.

[samsom.livejournal.com]

Here via the Herald -

I voted no for a couple of different reasons. After Chosen, Xander lost Anya, Buffy lost Spike, and everyone lost Sunnydale. I don't think it would have occured to Xander to bring up something that was part of a past neither he nor Buffy would want to recall - especially with having to rebuild their world all over again and dealing with activated slayers.

I choose to ignore the comics, so in my worldview, Angel is not Buffy's father or avenging lover to settle the score with Spike (if Buffy thought something needed to be avenged, she'd do it herself and since she never did...), so Xander saying anything wouldn't serve any purpose other than Xander once again overstepping his bounds, and I can't honestly see Xander doing that after the sixth season.

[shapinglight]

I have no thoughts of my own, so just wanted to say I agree with you.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well, I think we answered your question - and mine. Of the 65 people who voted? 89% don't believe Xander would tell him. And of the people responding?
Everyone agrees that only Xander would have done so.

Why does this episode keep getting discussed? It's not just me who feels compelled to discuss it. I'm not sure I want to know the answer...Weird episode Seeing Red.

[shapinglight]

Well, I suppose because it's so controversial and opinion in fandom is still so divided over whether Spike deserves to be forgiven because he went and got his soul back or should have been strung up by his heels and castrated on the spot.

And that's not even touching the Willow/Tara stuff. ;)

For the record, I don't think for one minute Xander would have told Angel.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not helped by the fact that people had agendas, and that episode pretty much states that you don't need a soul to feel remorse, nor will a soul stop you from doing evil, which sort of flips Angel's entire story inside out right there.

The Spike/Clem scene basically changes everything you know about Angel/Angelus. A lot of Angel fans online couldn't handle it and lashed out.

No, as one poster on the ATPOBTVS board once stated: "That episode managed to find a way to offend literally everybody." LOL!

[shapinglight]

No, as one poster on the ATPOBTVS board once stated: "That episode managed to find a way to offend literally everybody." LOL!

Heh! Very true.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Did he tell them? No way.

But I think if any character were to tell them, Xander would have the shortest route from A to B.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree I can't see anyone other than Xander telling him.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

*Disregarding the comics, which I have not read. And also not familiar with whatever scenario shapinglight was working from...

It would be hard for me to envision a scenario where Xander would do so.

Xander and Angel are not buddies. I don't know that they truly hate each other, but they don't get along and have no particular rapport and would not gravitate toward one another even if no one else were around.

I think the most plausible scenario - were we to assume Xander does tell Angel -- would be if someone else told Angel (Faith for example) and he went to Xander for confirmation. If Angel already knew, Xander wouldn't lie - but I don't think he'd have any particular inclination to volunteer the info.

I just don't see Xander and Angel having the sort of conversations they'd need to have before they started sharing on that level. Now, Xander locked in a cage and tortured by Angel's soulless incarnation would share that info... but now we're probably talking about a different story.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Completely agree. I can't envision a scenario outside of Xander drunk and it coming up (as rarihah posts above) or Xander being tortured...

Nor can I imagine one in which Angel would ask him or think to ask Xander about anything. Angel never asked Xander anything. Angel barely tolerated Xander. Faith or Willow, maybe, but not Xander.

[The fic situation - was how to get Spike and Angel to talk about the AR scene and would they?
Should she just leave it out? I replied she should leave it out because there's no way they'd be discussing it. First I doubt Angel knows, since I can't think of anyone who'd tell him. And Second - Spike certainly wouldn't volunteer it.]

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Keeping in mind that Angel only knew the 17-year old Xander -- and in Sunnydale the thoughts he'd take least interest in would be that of the disaffected teenaged boy. Presumably, Angel would consider a post-Chosen Xander to have more perspective and might be more inclined to listen to him. If he had to.

Far be it from me to rain on the fic parade, but there are some conversations that guys just don't have... (In the case Angel & Xander, there are many conversations they will not have...)

I know that's pretty limiting when we get to fanfic, where the world is your sandbox. If this conversation is the primary point of the fic, then you have to explain why/how they'd even go there. If can be worked around, then I'd say "leave it out"

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Far be it from me to rain on the fic parade, but there are some conversations that guys just don't have... (In the case Angel & Xander, there are many conversations they will not have...)

Thank you. I've been dying to say just that.

This is not a conversation two men would have.
Women yes, and we even tend to try to skip around it.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. Of course, it makes for bad Drama and boring TV if the characters just kind of sit there and don't make much more than small talk. So there is that...

[saifai.livejournal.com]

He didn't interact with Angel at any level (and hadn't for some years), so I don't think he would have done it. I adore Xander, truly, but I don't think he would have done anything unless it furthered some agenda (personal or otherwise) as was his tendency throughout the show. If the situation were thrown his way and there was a reason for it, I could see him doing it, but I don't see anything that would lend credence to that. I suspect we would have seen far more vicious and malevolent interactions between Angel and Spike during their fifth season if Angel had known.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

No. Not only that Xander and Angel are very unlikely to speak to each other at all after the high school years, but Xander has changed a lot after S6.

S7 Xander was one of the most mature characters I've ever seen, who became completely objective about Spike. At least after Him. You see Anya trying to lure him into a Spike bashing debate and he ignores her. You see Willow suggesting that Spike became bad again and started killing, but he vetoes her suggestion and comes up with the trigger explanation. This Xander would never tell anyone about the attempted rape. I think it's very obvious in S7 that he'd matured beyond that.