Flaws in Narrative Structure or how it can fail - as seen in Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[shadowkat]

As you already know, I have stepped away a bit from the Buffy fandom, but I did read this essay by the writer Foz Meadows - Buffy and the men in her life. Which to be truthful is actually more of a comparison piece of Spuffy vs. all of Buffy's other romantically inclined relationships. I read it mainly because I'm stuck in my apartment with a broken foot and don't feel like getting up and fixing breakfast, which I know I should do. Maybe I'll just combine lunch and breakfast - and that way I only have to get up once.

What is interesting about this meta, although I prefer the word essay for various reasons, is the following paragraph:

[Eh, prior to this paragraph, foz meadows establishes how Riley, Xander, and other characters that are considered good are never really taken to task for their actions nor shown to redeem themselves. In particular Xander. And it occurs to me that this essay should come with an advisory to Xander fans - Foz Meadows clearly doesn't like the character that much. I don't know why this is...but it is rare to find Xander fans who like Spike and vice versa. You will find Xander fans that are ambivalent about Spike or found him interesting on a certain level, and well vice versa. I'm in that category. But fans who "love" both? Or consider both favorite male characters? No.]

There is, I suspect, a rather awful reason for this – and, indeed, for why Spike alone of all Buffy’s lovers and love interests accepts responsibility for his actions. It’s all down to narrative impetus: we, the viewers, are meant to sympathise with Xander, just as we’re meant to sympathise with Angel and Riley. At base, we “know” they’re all good guys, and as such, their contrition is implied. We don’t need to see them apologise, because the surrounding story is structured to suggest that they’ve already been forgiven off-camera. But Spike, by contrast, begins as a villain. His developmental arc is the most dramatic and varied in the whole show, culminating in a radical heel face turn at the end of S6. We need to see his redemption, because otherwise, there’s no reason to believe that it’s taken place – and to an extent, this makes sense: if the audience can reasonably infer that something has happened, then it’s a waste of script and wordage to insert it. The problem is that, if the good guys never apologise on screen, then their goodness is called into question – which is why the most fucked up relationship in the whole show is simultaneously the most equitable. Neither Buffy nor the audience can assume anything about Spike’s intentions that we aren’t actually shown, and as a result, he has to work the hardest out of anyone to be seen as good.

This fascinates me as both a writer myself, and a critique of a narrative structure or style quite common with television and comic book writers of my generation. The next generation of writers, I've noticed, is sort of breaking with this pattern. And it is admittedly not all of them. It also underlines something that has been needling me about Mutant Enemy's writing in all of their series, in particular Whedon. This tendency to take it on faith that if a character is "good" - they can do horrible things, but the audience forgives them without requiring the audience to necessarily witness apologies or redemptive acts. Or you can just blame it on the drugs, the booze, or they just weren't themselves. The writer's seem to stop just short of examining why the character did it and the character's actions.

This essay by foz meadows manages to underline why Spike was my favorite - he was in some respects the best written. Fans will often lambast a character for things, and I'll be reminded of Jessica Rabbit's confession..."I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way". The trick to making characters who do nasty things interesting or relateable is by examining their actions and exploring a broad and often contradictory set of actions. And obviously Whedon did, to an extent, as permitted by the limitations of a 22 episode network tv show that he had to churn out weekly with little prep time. Particularly a low-budget piece done on a second tier broadcast cable channel in the late 1990s for a tween audience. If he'd been a novelist such as George RR Martin, he'd have more time to examine all the pits and valleys and various landscapes of his characters and narrative.

Meadows points out, and this is not just true of Whedon, that narrative requires more exploration of Spike than say, Xander, because the narrative is turning Spike from villain to good guy. Willow is similar in some respects, because the narrative was attempting to turn Willow from a good guy to a villain and then back again - the writers were so enamored of the character/actress that I think that arc sort of fell apart. It is actually harder to turn a good character into an bad character - because you are fighting the audience and the narrative. They had a similar challenge with Angel - they attempted to turn him evil, which actually worked quite well, the problem lay in making him "good" again. And much like Willow, the writers took a short-cut. In Willow's case - it was the magic she utilized that turned her evil, not Willow. Although to be fair, this is never quite clear. It is mentioned on more than one occasion by Willow and Buffy that Willow's choices took her down that road.
But the empathsis is on an external source. Same deal with Angel - he's only evil when he loses his soul. He's automatically good when he gets it back. (Except in his own series, where he is permitted to be a bit more ambiguous in nature and questioned more.) While the narrative does question this with both Willow and Angel, it doesn't quite do it enough. As a result both characters after a while feel a tad flat or binary.

Xander in some respects is better written than Willow and Angel. More well-rounded. But his actions are also handled somewhat flippantly by the writers. Either excused outright (the demon he summons in ONCE MORE WITH FEELING) or shrugged off (the attempted rape in The Pack, which is disturbing). The only times he pays for his actions are : Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered - where he is almost torn asunder by an angry mob of women, or Entropy - when Anya attempts to scorn him for standing her up at the altar and he feels miserable. But in both cases, it's minor and again, shrugged off. Because Xander is considered a good character and protected by the narrative.

This is a flaw not just in Buffy, but in the genre as a whole. I've noticed it in GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire novels - where certain characters, the quote unquote protagonists, Dany and Jon Snow are to a degree protected by the narrative. Oh they are tortured and abused, but their actions to a degree shrugged off. Same with the Starks.

Part of the reason television series such as Breaking Bad, The Good Wife, Justified, The Wire, Walking Dead, Mad Men, The Sopranoes, are critically acclaimed is the narrative doesn't protect certain characters. Detective McNulty in The Wire does some horrible things and is called to task on them as is Lester Freeman. This is also true of all of the characters in The Good Wife and Justified. The narrative examines their actions fully, and does not do it off-screen. They aren't protected by it. All the characters are given equal billing so to speak.

I remember visiting ACIN News, a spoiler site that pre-dated TWOPY, when S5 of BTVS aired. The commentator stated that the only character with any development whatsoever was Spike. That Spike had received the most development. It's true. Spike was the best written. Even if all we got were small moments. Because the writers felt they needed to show his ambiguity, and why he was doing what he was doing or their plot would fall apart. After all you can't have him sacrifice himself for the heroine, if you don't explain why he would, can you?
Xander - required no explanation in their pov.

Another bit that the writer points out...which she articulates far better than I have been able to is this:

A sidenote here about Xander: I cannot even begin to express how much it bothers me that his rape attempt from S1′s The Pack is never addressed in the narrative. Despite remembering everything he did while under the influence of the hyena spirit, Xander feigns amnesia in order to dodge the consequences of his actions, putting him on the same page as Angel, Parker and Riley. Never mind the fact that, at this point – which is to say, four episodes into the first season – he and Buffy have known each other for all of a month or so, and that realistically, if a guy you’d known for such a short amount of time sexually assaulted you while in an altered state, it ought to make you wary of him afterwards at the very least. But this doesn’t happen, which I take to be an enormous failure on the part of the writers. The fact that Spike’s assault is more forceful then Xander’s doesn’t detract from the vileness of the sentiment – nor, indeed, from the fact that, whereas Spike regains his senses mid-struggle and stops himself, Xander has to be physically incapacitated by Buffy. But despite the difference in their demonic aspects – Xander is possessed by a hyena spirit, while Spike is soulless – the two states nonetheless appear to be rather similar, in that both are guided by primal urges while still retaining their base personalities. It therefore seems a telling sign of Xander’s status as a Nice Guy that, whereas Spike seeks redemption for what he’s done while still soulless, Xander doesn’t so much as apologise even when back to normal. Xander, it seems, has less decency at times than someone who physically lacks a conscience.

This analysis is interesting. You can look at what is happening with Xander and the Pack more than one way. From one perspective, it appears that the narrative is excusing or rather shrugging off Xander's actions. This may well be indicative of "our rape culture" - where it is not considered a big deal for a boy who has gotten very drunk to force himself on a girl.
"I wasn't myself. I don't remember anything. And oh, by the way, you knocked me out before anything could happen, so no harm, no foul." OTOH...Buffy does push him off and does shrug it off, and does make it clear she's not romantically interested. Diminishing the importance of the act. Which is also a result of our rape culture.

If you look at how they structured the narrative in The Pack and what comes before and after it, you can see that this is deliberate in a way. The series is a horror series. Vampires are used frequently as metaphors for hormonal craziness, a the vampire bite - seduction or rape. Xander is shown up to and including the first section of The Pack, before he is possessed by a Hyena and becomes the leader of the Hyena pack, that he lusts after various things - Buffy, popularity, and a sense of power. Also in Whedon's series, a point is made that the "NICE GUY" as most women know is only "NICE" in his own head. There may well be a monster lurking just below the surface. The Trioka of Season 6 - depicts the nerdy guys at their most frightening and why women are right to be a tad wary. Buffy is a horror series for women, about female fears, and conquering female fears. But it is a horror series depicting female fears and the conquering of them from a decidedly male perspective. Which makes this episode so interesting particularly in contrast to Seeing Red.

The writer clearly identifies with Xander. He sets up a scenario where Xander obtains "power" and loses all his inhibitions ( a metaphor of sorts for alcohol or use of certain substances). Xander under the influence of the hyena, becomes the alpha male stereotype. He's a bully. He brutally tears Willow apart. Bullies his friends. Eats the mascot (a pig).
And attempts to rape Buffy, who he has been lusting after for quite some time now. When he comes to his senses, he does remember everything, but lies. Only Giles, a fellow man, and male authority figure, knows the truth - but Giles stays silent and shrugs off Xander's actions. It's a horrific episode if you examine it closely, and disturbing. More disturbing is that Xander continues to be Buffy's side-kick and trusted confidante. He does save her life at the end. So there's reason for this. And in a way redeems himself at least partially. But the narrative, filming, and way the episode is structured permits the audience to "shrug" off the attempted rape. However, I want to point out, that in a way Xander, the rapist, is the brunt of the joke, not Buffy. Buffy is never once portrayed as a victim in the narrative. No, Xander is the pathetic party. This is also to an extent true of Seeing Red, which is portrayed more realistically than The Pack, in part because the writers were ripping away comforting metaphors. But what both scenes have in common - is Buffy thwarts the attack. She throws them off. Both men are humiliated to a degree after the fact. Xander when he is no longer under the influence of the hyena, and Spike when he is no longer listening to the demon's urges. Spike does it faster than Xander, but in part this is due to the fact that Spike still possessed his faculties. He was just soulless, not possessed.
But in both cases, the pathetic party, the brunt of the joke, is the sexual offender or would-be rapist. Seeing Red, of the two, is oddly the least disturbing...I state oddly, because on the surface it is filmed in a manner that repulses the viewer ( I wanted to fast-forward or leave the room), while The Pack is filmed in a light fluffy manner in comparison. Almost campy. She knocks him out with a desk. But The Pack, if you listen to what both characters say, think about what came before, and what comes after...well my skin crawls when I think about the Pack and I agree with Foz Meadows, it is hard to understand why Buffy stayed friends with Xander. The Narrative protects him with a device, but upon further viewing or much thought, the device feels rather flimsy.

Don't misunderstand me, this isn't really a critique of Whedon per se, so much as the medium he was working in and the surrounding culture. If anything this is a critique of this particular type of narrative structure.

Comments

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

For me, it's always seemed as if the writers were interested in breaking stuff down, in blowing up the relationships, in these dramatic moments where the characters were having drama... but not interested at all in building the relationships back up / dealing with the fallout.

So I don't know if I agree with the analysis. IMO, it's just as possible that they simply weren't interested in the story of Xander dealing with what he did. Same as they weren't interested in stories about Buffy's financial situation (and they weren't, not really), or about her relationship to her father, or about any number of other things they weren't interested in.

Speedy recovery for your foot.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

IMO, it's just as possible that they simply weren't interested in the story of Xander dealing with what he did. Same as they weren't interested in stories about Buffy's financial situation (and they weren't, not really), or about her relationship to her father, or about any number of other things they weren't interested in.

But isn't that a flaw in the narrative? The emphasis on the melodramatic/big events and avoidance of crucial smaller events which lead to them?

In better written tv serials, the writers do examine these things, they don't just focus on what interests them. I wonder if the difference between good and great writing is the ability to write about what doesn't necessarily "interest" you? Most of us, who write professionally have to.

I guess that is my stumbling point - not writing about it because it doesn't interest you isn't a justification so much as an excuse, and only allowable if you aren't being paid and doing it for free. ie. Fanfic or meta - yes, of course. But if someone is paying you - then you should be held to a higher standard?

I don't know. I'm asking myself this question as well. You're told to only write or do what interests you. But I've noticed often - you can't do that. And often you have to look at both. For tv - you can hire people who cover the gambit...so there's really no excuse.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Although, I should add as I was reading the essay, I was thinking - definitely not a Xander fan. The essay should come with an advisory to Xander fans. There was that bias.

I'm admittedly more interested in why the writers made the choices they did and how those choices affect their narrative and character development at this point.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Is it a flaw? Sure. If the objective is to write the best narrative possible. :D

I don't think that's usually the objective. At all.

When I mean that the writers weren't interested in writing about the fallout, I don't know if that means that the writers themselves weren't interested, or if it's just a result of writing for an action/adventure/horror series, with X popular characters, a target demographic, etc.

[shapinglight]

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree it's a flaw exactly. I would say that BtVS isn't always entirely clear about what sort of show it is and this caused the writers to stumble quite a few times. For instance, they were all about the drama of the moment. They never seem to have thought about the fallout.

That's why, IMO, Xander's attempted rape in The Pack has no repercussions for the character. No one ever thought that it should. Which, yes, is a flaw, as you point out, but I think it's more a flaw in going there in the first place rather than not dealing afterwards.

The same is true of Seeing Red, where the attempted rape is taken a lot more seriously, but I think the same lack of forethought about the emotional fallout for the characters applied. It's just that this time - when the show had gained such a big, vocal online fandom - the wider reaction couldn't be ignored.

Oh anyway, I did think it was a good article, but I thought while the writer made some very valid points about how Spike is the only one of Buffy's romantic partners ever to own his wrongdoing, she/he was way too hard on the others, especially Xander.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh anyway, I did think it was a good article, but I thought while the writer made some very valid points about how Spike is the only one of Buffy's romantic partners ever to own his wrongdoing, she/he was way too hard on the others, especially Xander.

I noticed the bias as well. What was interesting though was how she phrased it.

And she does have a point, the writers actually do a better job of addressing Spike's actions in SR than they do in The Pack. What's disturbing is fans shrug off the Pack, is it how they filmed it?
And that I think was deliberate. Although I agree that they didn't think about it ahead of time, but I don't think they did after either.

Part of the problem is they couldn't decide if this was an episodic series (where things happen in an episode and are neatly wrapped up in that episode and we go to the next one as if nothing happened) or serial where you deal with what you did and there are consequences.
Which made the series contradictory and confusing in places.

[liliaeth]

The issue though is that The Pack is not the only time on Buffy where a rape gets shrugged off. Just think about Willow's rape of Tara, which Willow never takes responsibility for. Or Buffy's attempted rape of Spike in Gone, which is filmed as a joke, never really showing just how serious it is, considering that Buffy is strong than Spike, not just in physical, but in social and emotional ways as well.

Or hell, Buffy's attempted statuatory rape of that kid with the jacket...

[shapinglight]

And she does have a point, the writers actually do a better job of addressing Spike's actions in SR than they do in The Pack. What's disturbing is fans shrug off the Pack, is it how they filmed it?
And that I think was deliberate. Although I agree that they didn't think about it ahead of time, but I don't think they did after either.

Hmm, again, I'm not sure I agree. I've re-watched The Pack far more recently than I have Seeing Red, and the Xander AR scene is very much more like what you might call a 'conventional' rape scene - ie. Possessed!Xander is motivated by anger and a desire for power over Buffy. The dynamic is far closer to what we're given to understand is the 'normal' in cases of extreme sexual violence.

The Spike AR, on the other hand, despite the ultra-realistic/stark lighting/no music way it was shot - has this upside down dynamic going on where the rapist is motivated quite differently and in far more problematic a fashion - the result, I suppose, of taking something that Marti Noxon once did and inverting the sexes.

Losing the thread of what I was saying - I guess what I mean is, I don't think the AR in The Pack is shot in a way that makes it easier to shrug off. That people do, I think, is partly because Buffy shrugs it off so easily, which is the result of - as someone pointed out either in the original article, or in the comments - the structure of season 1. Like you say, they weren't sure at that stage if they were doing ST:TNG-like reversions at the end of each episode, or even if there would be a second series.

Oh, I dunno. They shouldn't have ignored it. On ther other hand, they should never have gone there in the first place if they weren't prepared to deal with the consequences - which they obviously weren't, either there or in season 6.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

The same is true of Seeing Red, where the attempted rape is taken a lot more seriously, but I think the same lack of forethought about the emotional fallout for the characters applied.

I agree, I got the feeling that they were just throwing out ideas of what would be big enough to get Spike to seek out a soul, and they never stopped to seriously examine how a rape attempt would impact on Buffy, or even at how fandom at large would continue reacting to it and many viewers were forever remain hostile to Spike and the thought of a Spike/Buffy relationship after that. I think they took for granted that the slate being more or less wiped clean with Angelus would equally apply to Spike once they brought him back with a soul in season 7, but many viewers refused to differentiate between souled and soulless Spike the way that some (?) of the writers seemed to expect. I remember an interview with David Fury when he talked about it being ridiculous to continue blaming Spike for the attempted rape when it was the demon that went to that place, and to hold Spike fully culpable we would have to do the same with Angel and Angelus. I think the writers viewed it as being done with soulless Spike after Seeing Red, along with the troubling questions fandom kept raising about whether Spike was evidence that a soulless being can do good in the universe they had created. SR would be the event to put an end to that debate, and then viewers could in theory embrace the souled version of the character

And they did at least have Buffy suffering flashbacks in Beneath You at Spike's touch, but with Xander after The Pack she seemed to have no residual wariness around him at all, even in the same episode they're all presented as being fine with him at the end. His behaviour was very much presented as being purely the Hyena talking, but that just doesn't line up with his cruelly taunting Willow over her crush and his being sexually attracted to Buffy, so it's hard to argue that the Hyena possession caused him to become a completely altered person so much as a possibly heightened version of himself? Something that was drawn attention to with Giles at the end of course, but simply played off as a joke with Xander not wanting to be caught out in front of his friends

It is interesing that they often had Xander commit acts that were horrible and quite disturbing when you really examine them, such as planning to use magic to forcibly make Cordelia love him so that he could then dump and humiliate her, but the show rarely called attention to just how serious those actions were. The Pack ends on a forced happy ending of him hugging Willow and all being well, and Bewitched, Bewildered, and Bothered ends with Cordelia being flattered that he would use magic to get her back (as she perceived his actions), even Once More With Feeling with Xander's use of magic leading to someone buring to death never got treated with even close to the same seriousness that Willow's cavaliar use of magic was getting in that same season. It was almost like they used other characters for an honest examination of some of Xander's actions, particularly the Troika from season 6 forcing viewers to confront what it really means for a nerdy little boy to use magic to turn an ex-girlfriend into your love slave, and then Spike's attempted rape being the darker and more realistically treated version of a character attempting to rape Buffy while he was under the influence of a demon

[(Anonymous)]

Please don't rewrite history. Xander was not after sex with Cordy. He wanted her to fall in love with him so he could dump her. It was wrong but it was a childish perspective of revenge not using a love spell for sex. Of course BOTH are reprehensible, taking someone's free will is an intimate violation. But you've now cast it as a sexual act and that was not his intent. His intent was 'pure revenge'.

[shapinglight]

I think they took for granted that the slate being more or less wiped clean with Angelus would equally apply to Spike once they brought him back with a soul in season 7.

Oh, I'm certain of it. Jane E pretty much said so in one of those Succubus Club podcasts when she said they had to be careful to make sure no one thought they were saying anything about humans (ie. that a man in RL could try to rape someone, go away, come back saying he's changed and be forgiven). She clearly thought the fans would accept the soul-getting as wiping the slate clean.

And if she thought that - given she was the only one of the writers dead set against the AR idea in the first place - the others surely must have thought so too.

Reading what you say about Xander, I agree. They were pretty careless with him too. Not as bad as they were with Spike, but bad enough.

[shapinglight]

Sorry to come back to this so late. Just wanted to say I read your comment with interest. I agree they probably thought they had set up the AR in such a way that Spike's character would be protected, especially if he got his soul back afterwards.

However, they were very foolish and naive to believe that. The way the AR was set up (for which see my exchange with the LJ owner above, just made people more angry. And if they wanted people to differentiate pre- and post-soul Spike, they should have made Spike completely different in season 7. They didn't - no doubt because they knew how popular the character was and didn't want to change him too much.

It's a big, stinking mess all round.

[punch-kicker15.livejournal.com]

Hi, here from Sunnydale Herald.

I agree with you on the flaws of the narrative structure, but just wanted to comment on this:

The only times he pays for his actions are : Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered - where he is almost torn asunder by an angry mob of women

I think Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered is at best a mixed bag regarding consequences for Xander. If I remember correctly, this is an episode in which

1) Under pressure from her friends, Cordelia breaks up with Xander.
2) Xander gets upset and blackmails Amy into doing a love spell on Cordelia.
3) Amy tells him that she can't create lasting love with a spell, and Xander tells Amy he just wants Cordelia in love with him long enough so that he can dump her and she'll feel bad.
4) Angry mob of women nearly tear him and Cordelia apart.
5) Xander in a moment of frustration admits the spell was intended for Cordelia
6) Cordelia is flattered by this confession.
7) Spell is reversed.
8) Cordelia stands up to her friends and takes Xander back.

So Xander did a spell to mess Cordelia's mind, with the specific intent of hurting her, a spell that endangered her as much as it did him, and the long-term result is, he gets her back. It's one of those episodes that just totally failed for me, because I didn't feel anything that the writers apparently wanted me to.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Looking back now that episode is sooo creepy, especially when Cordelia is flattered and assumes that Xander ordered Amy into doing the spell to win her back, and Xander says nothing to correct that assumption. If anything the episode presented Xander and Cordelia in a very unbalanced way as Xander mostly seems annoyed at being dismissed by Cordelia and being made fun of by her friends, she is the one who seems to feel genuinally bad when she breaks things off at the dance, and then later we are shown the necklace of Xander's that she is secretly wearing. Whilst Xander just talks to Amy about wanting payback and to be the one to dump Cordelia, and he's even willing to shrug off the spells failure as no biggie the second he belives that Buffy might be expressing an interest in him

And of course the episode doesn't just end with Cordelia being presented as having learned her lesson by telling off all her friends and choosing Xander in front of them, it also has Buffy thanking Xander for really coming through and him joking about how it was touch and go for a minute there, even though what they're actually talking about is Xander resisting the urgh to take advantage of his friend when she was under a spell. Just wtf, I honestly don't know what Marti was thinking with this episode

ETA If that episode featured anyone but Xander and his automatic nice guy shield, surely that role would have been clearly presented as the villain and Buffy would be dismissing them as a creepy and controlling little dweeb, the way she did other characters such as the boy who got turned down for a date in The Prom and planned retribution, or of course Warren's plans to dominate Katrina after she ended things with him. But because it's Xander that episode just gets shrugged off at the end with Buffy thanking him for not doing anything worse, and then he actually gets rewarded with the girl. I get the feeling we're even supposed to feel sorry for him when Amy hits on him too and he realises that Buffy's interest in him is only a spell

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It's a wonky episode, similar to HIM, which is about teen infatuation or lust. In both episodes, women go crazy over a guy - but it's not love, just physical attraction. The man is an object.

Xander in BBB is attempting to do a love spell that would make Cordelia crazy about him, so when he dumps her - she can feel what he feels. The same humiliation and pain. But the spell backfires - instead it protects Cordy, and makes every other woman who comes within shooting distance of Xander crazy with desire - they physically want him, except Cordy. They become crazy with jealousy towards Cordy when they discover he loves her. Trapped together...Cordy and Xander realize they care about each other, and it's not just infatuation - both are insecure and lash out at others in different ways.

In HIM - RJ inherits his older brother's lucky jacket. The jacket has a weird effect on woman, they lust after whomever is wearing it. The significance of this - is women lust after the "jock" or the "hunk" with the letter jacket. Or a leather jacket. We go for the looks, not the person. It's about objectification and lust. Each declare they are in love and what they will do to prove it - one says she'll die for him, one will rob a bank, one will slay the principal who hurts him, one will change him into something that appeals more to her. It's not love - but passion.

That's what the writers were going for at any rate.

[ashes1753.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Spike/Buffy or Xander/Buffy at all. I cannot see Buffy forgiving Spike for trying to rape her. It is a point to Spike for realising what he had done, takes responibility for it and changes it.

With the issue of Xander and the pack i do agree that i hate dhow there was no consequences, i can see Buffy at this point forgiving him as she knew that he was under the influence of the possession. As for Xanders reaction i think alot of it has to do with him being immature, 16 and not wanting to admit to himself at what he did, he wanted to forget so he told the girls he couldn't remember. I see it being more cowardly then as 'less decency'

As for Giles not saying anything, i think part of him was wanting Xander himself to admit it, part of it knowing that xander didn't deserve to feel guilt over something he couldn't control. Alot like Angel was excused of his actions as Angelus. ( which i can understand but also disagree with occasionally)

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

An excellent and thoughtful response to what I thought was also an excellent discussion of Buffy's issues with the men in her life. Xander is, to me, such a layered character that he is easily seen (and written) as hero or villain. He can be either or both. Which may be why he doesn't get called on the things he does - as a sidekick, he needs to be at least semi-heroic, and if has to answer for his attempted rape, demon summoning, etc. it's hard to think of him as someone to be trusted. So the writers just gloss over his slips into villainy so that he remains available to help the hero? I dunno, meta's not my thing, I just read what others write and nod vigorously. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not so much gloss...as sort of side-step. They appear to like the layers, but they do not see the need to be demonstrative. He does apologize, it's just not as demonstrative.

Characters who start out as villains...need to do more to demonstrate heroism, than characters who start out as heroes or nice guys. That said, the original essayist did gloss over a few items regarding Xander, he does save Buffy's life in Prophecy Girl - and after she summarily rejected him in the same episode. Note it was Xander who did so, not Angel. And in OMWF - he does admit to it in the end and try to apologize.

But the narrative does tend to protect Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles to a degree. Granted they do horrible things - so they aren't as protected as some television narratives. In some tv shows, the heroes are not permitted to do anything morally wrong - so they are protected by the narrative.
Here - they do, but their actions tend to be excused more or the writers are not interested in either harping on them or depicting redemption. For example - Buffy beats Spike up in Dead Things, and this is only peripherally discussed in Older and Far Away...where he states, are you going to beat me up again? The writer's sort of shrug it off, but to be fair - not completely - since much later in Conversations with Dead People - Buffy confesses to Web Holder (vamp psychologist) that she behaved horrifically and was a monster herself. And it can be read, and this has always disturbed me - that Buffy pays for her treatment of Spike in Seeing Red. The narrative shows that. So it can be successfully argued that the narrative doesn't protect them that much.

OTOH...Spike gets a bit more development and is provided with more opportunities to prove himself or fall down on the job, because they are changing him from villain to hero. We see more of what is going on with him.
Because the writers have to bend over backwards to explain why he'd go get a soul, why'd he become good - when the rules of the verse are the opposite.

[farmgirl62.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion Shadowkat.

I love BOTH Spike and Xander. I'm not a Spuffy fan nor a Bangel nor a Bander (isn't that what they call Buffy/Xander?). I thought Bangel was naive, Spuffy was unhealthy, and Buffy and Xander work best as friends. I also watched all the episodes S1-7 in a binge view over a couple of months. That REALLY changes perspective IMO.

Regarding the disturbing nature of "The Pack". I think the point of the episode was that one of the good guys goes bad and it's really dark. They ATE the principle in the 6th episode of the 1st season. To me this is the episode that made me go ...woah. So I think the context really matters. If they did The Pack equivalent in S5 then it would have been handled radically differently IMO.

Now regarding the attempted rape: of course they went there. Xander liked Buffy, it's a juicy plot to follow. And Xander (Joss' avatar) was not wrong - Buffy likes her guys just a little bit dark. Joss plays with this all 7 years. But they made it a clear case of possession because Xander clearly has no desire to eat a pig that he tries to repress on a daily basis. And I sensed no desire to hurt Willow just lurking beneath the surface.

Which brings us around to the "forgetting" aspect. Again, you say it's a bad narrative choice but I would argue that in context it was the right move. We have Xander ask what else he did, thus opening himself up for getting yelled at. Clearly the girls want to forget it as much as he does. More importantly, the narrative choice was to let us glimpse into how dark it could be but NOT have it become something that breaks apart this fledgling "team" six episodes into the series. Again, if it was S5 it's a different story.

Bottom line: The Pack was Josh tipping his hand how dark he was willing to take each of his characters. He was NOT prepared to stay in that territory for a new show. I personally think that was the right S1 call.

Then we have BBB. Xander realizes what a huge mistake he made, throws himself on the mercy of Giles to fix it, gets reamed verbally by Giles, who then proceeds to fix it. Xander's substitute father figure rips him with a "get out of my sight" statement. But this is glossed over because Xander gets the girl at the end? Cordy taking Xander back was about Cordy's growth, not Xander's lack of guilt. It was a choice of which story to emphasize. Between flipping the male gaze 180, making Xander the buffoon and nearly killed, and Willow not talking to him because he really hurt her (unintentionally) I don't think we were supposed to get "Xander's a hero" vibe out of that episode. I think we were suppose to get "Xander's an idiot who is not evil at heart". I think that's actually accurate. And it effectively brought up the whole issue of consent and that Xander's true crime was not trying to make Cordy love him so he could break up with her. Belaboring Xander's idiocy seemed unnecessary.

Spike's story, OTOH, was an attempt to give him motivation to go get his soul. I HATED the AR. It felt out of character. I'll completely agree with you that the narrative choice on that was bad. I'd believe Xander was stupid enough (as a teenager) to not realize the true implications of his spell. I just don't believe Spike would actually attempt to rape Buffy without his soul. Spike was better than that.


Bottom Line #2: I love both Xander AND Spike. I can see your arguments regarding the narrative choices but I'd say the two regarding Xander had more to do with context and what story they wanted to emphasize. The one regarding Spike was IMO a really bad choice in how to motivate an important character arc.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree how you watched the series and which characters you shipped and how you shipped them do color perspective. Foz Meadows makes it clear that she shipped Spuffy hard, and I don't know many Spuffy shippers who like Xander. Also Foz clearly dislikes Xander intensely. And oh, least we forget, perception/life experience of the watcher/viewer does come into play. ;-)

I think you may be correct about the difference between The Pack and Seeing Red. Although there's another reason why The Pack didn't bug the audience in quite the same way Seeing Red did (ignoring the whole Willow and Tara bit for the time being).

It is odd but Spike actually did attack Buffy in that manner in the past, except - the writers kept the metaphor (bite not rape). They removed the metaphors in S6. In Out of My Mind (S5), Halloween (S2), Harsh Light of Day (S4) and School Hard (S2) along with his plans in The Initiative (S4) - it is made clear that he wants to rape or bite or kill Buffy. Their interactions are weirdly sexual.

In Seeing Red - there's a couple of problems with that episode, which the writers should have paid better attention to. They've set up a mutually abusive sexual relationship between two characters who have been violently dancing with each other for years. They fight. This time, they fight and they shag. When Spike states he wants more - she pulls away. She beats him up because she hates herself and her yearning for him. She breaks up with him when her ex- Riley comes to town. Then she's a bit cruel to him around her friends. Yet, gets upset when he sleeps with one of them. Seeing Red occurs right after Entropy - while this works in regards to Spike's "narrative structure", it does not quite work in regard to Buffy's - and it also, makes it appear as if the narrative is punishing Buffy for her actions. Yet, such a thought is obviously repulsive on every level. People thought it though - and commented. And were called rape-apologists, and perhaps rightly so. But if you step back from the narrative and look at it - it does go there. That's a definitive flaw in the writing. [People blamed Marti for it, but current information states that Joss Whedon okayed it and Joss Whedon pushed for it. Fury and Espenson fought against it. Whedon was the deciding vote. See Whedon's own interviews and posts on Whedonesque and elsewhere - where he states this.]

Weirdly you could claim that the narrative protected Spike over Buffy here. Although I'm not sure that is true. Foz Meadows sees it the opposite way. As do many viewers - who feel Spike got more development.

In The PACK - it is like you and shapinglight below state. But I'm questioning whether it was the right approach. We shrug it off, because Buffy does. And the way it is positioned - is important. Xander and Buffy are not involved in a romance, they aren't in an abusive relationship, he's not made any moves on her outside of that episode or ever attacked her outside of that episode (he would have to be an idiot to do so - since she could easily kill him). And his behavior as Hyena!Xander is very out of character. He eats a raw pig, rips Willow to shreds, and tries to rape Buffy, also he's super-strong. So here...it's not quite the same.

Now, here's where I am on the fence. Is it offensive? The AR definitely is offensive (see above for why - ie. how the narrative makes it appear that it is Buffy's fault - which offends me to no end and was why I kept hoping they would not do it). That's one of the many reasons why I found Seeing Red unwatchable in places. That whole episode is offensive and goes against the fabric of the series in my opinion. It's also a fascinating episode - because they do some bizarre things with film in it. And I adore the conversation between Spike and Clem, as well as the conversation prior to the AR between Buffy and Spike, but the AR is unwatchable and offensive on too many levels. But is The Pack? I don't know.

In the Pack, the writers take a different approach. The narrative clearly is sympathetic towards Buffy. Xander has become a monster who is not himself.
She puts him down. They save him. The rapist is portrayed at fault, a monster, and shrugging off rape gives it less power, men less power.
The AR goes the opposite route.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I mostly agree with farmgirl62, but I have a few thoughts in addition to what others have already said.

My biggest point would be this: that the events of The Pack don't get explored in more detail because of structural reasons, not narrative ones. S1 is just an outline form of Joss's vision for the show. It's compressed, it's abbreviated.

Now, that's obviously a very Doylist explanation, but it affects the narrative too. The Pack is there to explore a number of issues (e.g., the darkness inside us all, high school clique issues, Buffy's sense of being an outsider, etc.). The writers have to pick and choose which ones get more emphasis in a particular episode.

This doesn't mean the issue goes away entirely. Xander's actions in The Pack arise again with Angel (for whom Xander's behavior was foreshadowing); with Oz; with Faith; with Spike; and arguably with Willow. While I agree that Xander gets off easy, the issue does get treated more seriously later. Whether that's satisfactory depends, I guess, on whether one cares more about particular characters or the issue more generally.

The other point I'd add is that within the show's mythology, the treatment of Xander is consistent with other characters. The distinction involves the relative permanence of the "possession". With vampires the possession is, except in 2 rare cases, permanent. With Xander, the "reverse transpossession spell" undoes the damage right away. Whereas Buffy would stake a vampire, she can let Xander off the hook precisely because his condition was temporary.

The obvious comparison would be Oz: in Phases, Giles specifically rejects killing the werewolf because it's actually human most of the time and possession is temporary. Again, this allows Buffy to keep Oz alive as long as he remains in control of himself. And when he does that generally, he gets a pass on things like killing and eating Jack in The Zeppo.

This is a long way of saying that within the show the relevant moral question is not the nature of the act (eating Jack is, after all, pretty awful), because we all sin, but the ability of someone to exercise control in general.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Good points.

I think you are right the structure of the series in S1 - which is largely episodic in structure and not serialized does play a role here. It's not so much that it is an "outline" though, as it is an episodic structure. ie. Monster of the Week. This happens, it is wrapped up, we forget it, and move on. It is a problem with episodic series and not just Buffy. Episodic series often can be a bit lazy on the monster or case of the week. Often it is used, in the case of Buffy (also House, Elementary, Angel, etc) as a metaphor for the internal problems of the individual characters. The downside is it protects the lead characters from consequences. We get to see the dark side of Xander, but the character is not damaged by his dark acts.
Oh it was the evil spirit's fault - not Xander.

And you are correct this is used in the mythology...certain characters can do horrific things, yet get a "get-out-of-jail" free card for : 1) It wasn't their fault they were posessed by (fill in the blank), 2) it wasn't them they lost their soul (ironically this isn't true of all characters - Spike regains his soul, but his actions while soulless are used against him - inconsistent usage there, which was a corner that the writers kept trying to write themselves out of), 3) they had no control over their actions

This is actually a comic book and daytime serial device/trope. But I do see flaws in it. It works to an extent, but as one writer pointed out - if a character is constantly getting possessed and doing horrid things, and blaming the horrid things on the possession - you wonder about the character.
It is a device that needs to be used more sparingly than I think they used it in later years.

That said, I generally agree - on the relevant moral question within the series being that it's not the act, so much as the motivation for the act or the intent behind it. (ie. was it involuntary manslaughter or malice afore thought? It does make a difference. Did Xander intend to rape Buffy, or did the Hyena spirit make him do it? I'm not quite certain - and the writers don't really answer it, which is admittedly interesting but also disturbing, yet, I think they may well intend it to be. Horror series after all.)

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I call it an outline because I think Joss was worried that he might have just one real chance to get across his ideas, so he tried to cram a lot of them into single episodes or even themes. For example, the plot of Angel (episode) gets stretched out to half a season in S2. To me, S1 is the outline form of his vision for the show.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I don't know why this is...but it is rare to find Xander fans who like Spike and vice versa.

Spander fans? :) I found this sentence so strange because I've met so many Xander fans who love Spike and the other way around, but almost most of them shipped them together.

The problem with Xander's character in a nutshell is the lack of interest by the writers. There are so many potential plotlines that were ignored and shrugged off regarding this character. What happened in The Pack was forgotten just as Jesse's death was forgotten - both being a potentially interesting storylines to tell about Xander. "Kick his ass" should have been dealt with in S3, but it was ignored just as Faith's attempted rape was ignored.

All and all, it just sucks being a Xander fan. *shakes head*

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee, it occurred to me after reading your comment and several of the above, that I should have stated that it is rare to find Spuffy shippers who like Xander and Bander shippers that like Spike, although there are several Xander fans on my flist who hate Spuffy and Spike and not really because of the character but because of fans they had unfortunate experiences with on the net. Fans can, unfortunately and ironically, make you hate what they love the most. Always found it ironically amusing that fans can make people hate what they love, you'd think it would be the opposite?


I agree with what you state above. The difficulty I had with Xander throughout the series was the lack of interest the writers had in the character's overall development. It's actually one of the reasons I despised Andrew so much in S7.

Xander's actions aren't quite followed up on. The only reason he doesn't become a cipher or a stand-in for the writer, is the actor who is excellent at comedy.