Once More With Feeling...

[shadowkat]

Last one, I promise. All this is probably proving is that I should leave polling to the experts. Hee.

[Poll #976784]

Comments

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

Re: Buffy Season 8 comics...I haven't read them because I pretty much never read comics, and continuing the story in that format doesn't interest me much. If spoilers indicate the story is going in a way that sounds cool, I might pick them up at some point. However, what I've read about them so far sounds uninspiring.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Comics is one of those mediums that you either like or don't like. Get or don't get. I love them. But I'm a visual medium whore. I draw and write and appreciate good art - specifically art that shows people moving or tells a story. Comics appeals to my kinks. I wish they didn't - have no clue what to do with the things after I buy and read them. I have five to six boxes I need to get rid of. And I thought I'd kicked the habit with my BTVS addiction, but stupid Whedon decided to write comic books and take the series to them...sigh. So I've come full circle again!

[wenchsenior.livejournal.com]

I really liked comics as a kid. Never owned them myself, but regularly devoured those belonging to friends. I still appreciate them as an art form, but they no longer seem to grab me. I recently bought the first collected volume of "Sandman" since everyone always told me that series is amongst the best "adult" comics on the market. And I thought it was just...ok. Loved some of the artwork, but not enough to consider buying the second collection. I wonder at what point I lost the love for that format? And why?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

With the ATS comics I don’t have a problem with thinking of them as canon ie a continuation of the same story but with time I seem to have lost what interest I had in the AtS characters so I won’t be actively following them.

My impression is that more women than men write fanfic but the first fanfic I ever saw was of the Spuffy/slash variety so my definition of fanfic tends to centre on that model. I think the problem is that some types of fic that are very heavily female dominated and others aren’t, the genre doesn’t form a single distribution so I’m not sure how informative it is to take an overall mean so to speak.

I read a lot of BtVS fanfic when the show was on but only occasionally look at stories from authors I already know these days. Might start reading again to fill in time between comics but then again haven’t felt any inclination to read BSG fic while that show’s been on so maybe not.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

My impression is that more women than men write fanfic but the first fanfic I ever saw was of the Spuffy/slash variety so my definition of fanfic tends to centre on that model. I think the problem is that some types of fic that are very heavily female dominated and others aren’t, the genre doesn’t form a single distribution so I’m not sure how informative it is to take an overall mean so to speak.

The poll results are really quite fascinating. Apparently most of the women answering the poll assume it is primarily women who write fanfic, and the men who *don't* write fanfic assume the same. The men who do write fanfic or women who know men who have and have written it with them - say that there is no way of telling for certain. LOL!

I probably should have broken it down into character ships, but that would just make things complicated and I was sneaking these polls in at work on the sly...at lunch and at breaks on a tiny box, so no one could tell what I was doing if they happened to look over my shoulder. Wasn't too worried, the guy who shares the cubicle with me was watching Heroes on his screen at lunch. At any rate - I'd be curious to know if most of the men writing fic wrote non-ship, non-romance, and Xander or Angel centric? Which may explain why people who read mostly Spuffy or Spike or Slash, may not know guys write it or think women primarily write it. People aren't always very good at seeing beyond their own little playground. I noticed that a lot when I was hopping fanboards back in the day. Each one was unique. Some all women. Some mostly men. And some a mix.
Although it was hard to tell at times.

I think the women online tend to talk about fanfic more - its not that women necessarily write more fanfic than men, but they are appear to be better marketers of it and less nervous about sharing it or admitting they write it. Or so I've noticed. This too could be a faulty assumption.

What the poll gets across is you really can't catergorize people - even though it is human nature to do just that. (Heck I'm doing it.) We want to see a pattern, even if there isn't one. People will do their own individual thing and tend to change their minds.

So, no I don't think anyone can claim that the illegality of fanfiction is silencing women's voices. Or at least I don't see any proof of that here.

[cjlasky.livejournal.com]

One of these days, we're going to finish our ATS Season 6 project, and it'll be interesting to see how the Whedon/Lynch version of S6 plays out in comparison. I'm sure there'll be many times when Masq, OnM and I clunk ourselves on the heads going: "Damn! Why didn't we think of that?" There will be times when there are eerie similarities, and we'll feel a completely unwarranted pride and a gnawing suspicion that Joss has been spying on us. And there will be times when Joss makes us all look so inept that we'll regret ever typing a word. But I really wanna see what Joss has in mind!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for responding.

The results to these polls are fascinating, even if they are still too small to be a good indicator.

I agree on ATS S6. I really want to know what Whedon had planned for that last season. According to the interviews I've read he plans on having the plot they'd sketched out if they'd gotten a finale season actually take place but in the comics. And comics do give you greater lee-way setting wise.

Also Brian Lynch is really good. He blew me away with Spike:Asylum. If you haven't read it, you should. He has Whedon's world down cold. Only thing I've read since those shows ended including fanfic that fits how I saw the character of Spike and that universe. Can't wait to see how Brian writes the other characters, if they come close to how well he has done Lorne and Spike? I'll be happy. I may be the only person who is happy, but I don't care - selfish that way. ;-)

I'm also beginning to agree with the people who say that the comics aren't really canon to the tv show - since completely different medium. Their arguments, particularly scroll's rings true.

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

There's a new tv series on called Raines about a detective who talks to the victim in his head, and we see the conversations on the screen. In the first episode a homeless woman named Alice morphed into an Alice in Wonderland Mad Hatter tea party set.

Hah!

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I will absolutely read the AtS Season 6 comic if it is canon, where by "canon" I mean Joss has a hand in the story lines. That show ended too soon. Part of my difficulty with BtVS is I was fine with where it ended. More story is good, of course, I love the Buffyverse, but I struggle with the comics medium. It is mega-confusing to me.

I am AtS's bitch, though, if Joss is at the helm.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I highly recommend Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics for figuring out the medium. A fun book and also very informative. Comics are often like reading something in a different language, the brain has to get used to the format. It's probably good for making new neurons or something. Someday I will sit down and figure out how to read manga as a way to stave off senility.

Buffy 8.02 spoilers below

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

The weird thing is, I do OK with comics that are stories I haven't seen in another medium. Like I did OK with Fray, for example. But the BtVS one confuses me because the story-telling has to be condensed down to a few pages with a lot of background information and contextual cues cut out, and the slight lack-of-resemblence between the characters as drawn and the actors on the show (which I know is necessary) sometimes gets me confused about who is being depicted in the illustration. This was a major problem in issue #2 where they showed some random blonde tied to a bed having nightmares and being stalked by some other random blonde, and someone had to explain to me that that was Buffy and Amy. If you don't know that's Buffy on the bed, you don't know she's having dreams, you don't know the Xander stuff wasn't real.... throws the whole thing off.

Re: Buffy 8.02 spoilers below

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I agree that the art, especially on Amy (yikes), hasn't been the best. I think too that Joss is very deliberately writing these comics like episodes of the show (it's different from his style on X-Men to be sure). It's good and bad, because it makes the things we're missing all the more obvious.

If you don't know that's Buffy on the bed, you don't know she's having dreams, you don't know the Xander stuff wasn't real.... throws the whole thing off.

You thought Xander's head really fell off? ;)

Re: Buffy 8.02 spoilers below

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

At first, I did. I was really confused.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The art may be better on the ATS serial. I've noticed on the whole that the art associated with Brian Lynch's comics is better than the Buffy ones. They are done as mini-series or graphic novels so that helps.
There's a cinemgraphic quality to them and from what I've read of Whedon's interviews - he appears to want to stick with that.

Lynch is by far the best writer I've seen on these. And he's an ATS geek.
Big time.

That also helps.

I'm picky about characterization when it comes to canon. Very picky.
And I'll admit, I'm struggling a little with the Buffy S8 - Buffy seems off to me. Xander and Andrew are on. So is Dawn. But I'm on the fence about how he's writing Buffy and wondering how much input SMG really had - I'm starting to think more than I realized. That said, I'm taking a wait and see attitude. And it's only bits and pieces here and there.

Agree on the art - the last issue's was disappointing. Amy looked a lot like Buffy in that issue.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

How do you feel about Whedon's new Buffy S8 in comics?
Other: I don't consider the comics to be same as TV show canon, but if Joss wants to write it, I say go ahead and let him. Don't know yet if I want to spend money to read it, that's all. But I do sympathise with those fanfic writers who feel they're getting Jossed to hell and back. It's tough to build on closed canon for 3 years, then have that yanked out from under you.

How do you feel about Whedon doing ATS comics?
Am ambivalent and Other: Ambivalent because, unlike Buffy, which ended on a relatively happy, resolved note that was a great jumping off point for fanfic, Angel ended with Wes dead and the others quite soon to be dead. Yes, it's possible to write around the alley scene with some kind of Slayer or magic interference that allows the Fang Gang to live and keep fighting. But for many viewers, such interference would be a huge, clunky McGuffin. There's great power and elegance in the stark, iconic, we few, we happy few, Leonidas' 300 ending Joss gave us. The ending made sense thematically, their last day gave us character resolution, and I'm not sure continuing the story would necessarily add to the story.

Having said that, if Joss wants to write it, he's free to do so. I may or may not read it, I may or may not incorporate it into my understanding of the TV show. Like I said, I don't consider different mediums to (necessarily) be the same canon.

Would you read fanfic that does not follow the canon of the comics?
Of course, the comics aren't canon - totatlly different medium: Perhaps my answer should be "I don't need fic to be canon-compliant, but it's a nice plus. Thankfully I don't consider comics to be canon, so either way you're in the clear with me."

Do you think fanfic should be allowed to be published for money?
I answered only if the author is dead and the work is in the public domain, but that's not a complete answer. I don't think "allow" is really the question. Fanfic is published for money. That's what tie-in novels are, only they've got a stamp of approval from the PTB and the stuff that we write doesn't.

I didn't follow the debate that triggered this "fanfic for money" question, but if we're talking unsanctioned fanfic? No, don't try to make money. Because then we'll have lawyers up our ying-yang and we don't need that. Or if you're really determined, get signed on to write a tie-in novel and get it published. More power to you.

What more or less triggered the polls...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the indepth comment.

FYI - so you don't have to waste time scrolling through the old posts and debates -

The two debates that triggered my polls:

1. Whether Joss's writing of the comics would really deprive fanfic writers of their audience because people who are into canon would only read if the fanfic followed what Whedon did in the comics. Not, whether it is canon, but more whether fanfic writers are justified in whining about Whedon continuing the story in comic form because it is costing them readers. And the degree to which the comics being canon truly matters in regards to how you read fanfic and write it?

2. Who primarily writes fanfic - men or women? And whether the illegality of fanfic (not the stuff authorized or in public domain of course) is silencing women's voices - because that is what they write? And finally, whether fanfic that is not sanctioned by the author/publisher or in public domain should be published for money?

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Finally a poll I can fully participate in (since I don't read or write fan fic I could only answer a couple of questions in your first poll)!

That is an interesting question about whether having fan fic be illegal to publish is silencing women's voices. Because I would turn the question around and ask about why women feel the need to plagiarize? Okay, that is a little harsh, but I do find so often that in art class women copy what others are doing and the men are trying new things. I guess I shouldn't generalize, but it does seem to be a pattern that so many women are willing to waste their writing talent on something that is not original to them. I would actually be curious to find out #1 if that is really true, and #2 why they do it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The responses to these polls are fascinating.

The men who write fanfic state that you can't tell whether it is women or men who primarily write it. The men who do not write it and a majority of the women responding (not all of them mind you) state that it is women who primarily write fanfic.

I think women tend to advertise it more and talk about it more. Women tend to like to talk things to death and contemplate their navels in a way that I've discovered most men don't. In fact it is a trait in women that annoys the majority of men to no end. That said, I've met men who do this. One of the pluses of having a kid brother is well, you find out that half of your gender biasis assumptions are wrong. I told him once that women just contemplated their navel and he informed me that I was wrong and provided proof - several of his male friends did this and drove him batty with it. LOL!

So I don't think that 1# is necessarily true - although a heck of a lot of people seem to think it is - but most of those people tend to read fic posted on lj or fanboards they frequent, which may be more female centric.
In short - if it ain't in my playground or the ones I know about and frequent, it doesn't exist - mentality. That mentality is at the root of a lot of faulty human assumptions - if we don't see it, if we don't know about it, if we have no evidence of it - then it's not there. We can after all only reacte to information that we have or know about.

The ones who do not think #1 is true are people who post fic and read fic on fanboards, forumes etc frequented by a lot of men. I was on co-ed fanboards and frequented a couple that were headed by men or co-monitored by them. The guys wrote fanfic - they just were a little less forward about posting it.

Writing fanfic is not plagirism. Want to make that clear. Plagirism is when you literally steal the "style" of writing. It's hard to understand.
But for the same reasons it is not plagirism to draw Mal or the Firefly ship and put him or it on shirt, it's not plagirism to write a story about them.

That said - I agree, it is perplexing. Why are women more comfortable writing fantasy fic about someone else's characters as opposed to creating their own? Granted in some aspects it may be easier - you don't have to describe them, make up a back story, or figure out how they sound. You don't have to worry about using people you know as a resource. Or heaven's forbid inadvertently writting yourself into your story. OR creating Mary Sues. You can just thoroughly research the characters.

But I don't think that's it. I think it has more to do with the fact that you have a ready-made audience. People who read it and tell you how great you are and make you feel good about yourself. I think it's for the validation. Most of the fanfic writers online - specifically the women ones, the men who write fanfic don't appear to do this - beg for feedback. If they don't get any comments? They get upset and stop writing.
Or threaten to stop writing. The more comments they get, the happier they are. And...here's the thing, they want positive comments, no critiques, just supportive postive ones. So, I think it has more to do with the fact that men have more outlets in which to get that support, validation, than women. Men are paid more, they are more likely to get a promotion, or get to the top of the ladder, there are more men in power that they can look up to, their religious leaders are men usually, they can excel at sports and the sporting events - the major ones are male oriented, they can be firemen and cops and get rewarded for being "heroes".

I suspect many women write fanfic for many of the same reasons men do - to fantasize about favorite characters, but also to work out issues they may not be comfortable writing about in their own fic which can be published and shared with family members. To in a way play power games - where they can be the one in control.

Note I did not say all. I certainly didn't write it for those reasons. I will admit however, that I've read others for those reasons.

People are interesting.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting point about the cries for feedback, because I've definitely seen that phenomena too. I know a lot of very insecure men, but most of them would be loath to beg for attention online.

I'm aware that men write fan fic, at the fireflyfans board there are a lot of men who write regularly, but they are far less likely to be romantic (they do like the humor as well as the fighting though).

Certainly reading Jane Espenson's site you can see that fan fic can lead into writing spec scripts (although most fan fic writers don't really try to adapt to screen play writing). So I can see how writing it can be good practice for writing, but not wanting real feedback or critiques kind of holds back the process IMO.

Of course just like huge numbers of people will paint for their own amusement, I imagine there are huge numbers of people who are happy to write as an emotional/creative release without needing it to be published.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Writing fanfic is *no* different that painting pictures of characters from Firefly, creating calendars with their pictures in them, putting those pics on buttons or what have you. The creative process is the same.
And I'm willing to guess the reasons for doing it are more or less the same.

Why did you choose to do a graphic novel of Jane Eyre as opposed to creating your own characters?

Why did you create a t-shirt with the Firefly characters and want to post that and sell that, as opposed to creating one with items and people you made up?

Why do people create majohns of Spike? Or vids of the shows? Or buttons and calenders with those characters?

And how are those things any different than writing a fanfic?

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Actually this is an interesting comparison because I don't think of my fan drawing as being in any way related to my 'Art'. I drew the first characters, the ones who inspired me to say something about their characters as an homage... and then I finished off drawing the others because I wanted a full set (almost like commercial work, like completing a craft project).
And I love wearing the t-shirt with all my BDHs on it, I love that people stop me at conventions to look at it. But I never considered it art.

I don't think I ever did w/the Jane Eyre either, I had just watched the latest PBS version and I was bothered that they had kind of left out the points that were important to me. So I picked up the book to see, and yes: the things I had seen it it were right there.... And that is when I was inspired to do that comic book thing because it gave me a chance to bring out the points I felt get lost in most (all?) film versions of Jane Eyre.

Those things were like projects to me, not like a personal expression of anything inside me. Not like when I am painting on canvas, and not even like the work I've been trying to do in ceramics (where I am really trying to express something inward in the external clay). I have a totally different attitude to the process.

Do writers experience that difference? They must! When you are writing your novel you must be coming from a different place than when you're writing an essay about a TV show, aren't you? Certainly when you are writing memos at work you have the same beautiful use of language, but the difference in what you are trying to communicate must make a difference in where it is coming from within you....

I don't know about fan fic writers, maybe they are pouring their heart and souls into these characters, but I'm afraid even my best fan drawings will always be (to me) just a more trivial homage to characters I loved and not anything I would consider as artistic.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It comes down to how you define art. Sort of like canon. We use the same words, but are we defining them in the same way.

Not always easy to tell in context.

I define art as "creative expression" which is far broader than "original" expression. And I define original expression not by idea, because I know for a fact there are no such things. Just new ways of expressing those ideas or playing with them. For example - creating a show around a female vampire slayer is not an original idea. Naming her Buffy, having her portrayed by a petite blond woman is an original expression of that idea.

Creative Expression unlike "original expression" - is when we take any idea, piece of work, and play with it, creating something different and unique in the process - even if it was originally based on someone else's original expression. All fanfic has that in common - they are original expressions of the viewers or readers interpretation of what appeared on scrreen. Were my essays creative? Of course. Are they artistic? Of course. I've interacted with the material and created something from it. The creative process in writing a fanfic, throwing a piece of pottery, handbuilding one, or writing a novel isn't that different - you are creating something - the difference is in the materials you are using.

When people write, whether they want to admit it or not - they are using materials that have been created by others. When you paint a painting of your friends, you are using techniques and materials, and ideas that someone else came up with. You are playing with them.

The judgement on whether one piece of work is better or more trivial than another is purely subjective. It is *just* an opinion. That opinion does not change the fact that this piece of work could be a masterpiece of artistic achievement in the eyes of one reader/viewer just because it isn't in another's eyes. Fantasy artwork has often been influenced by the stories of others. Illustrations certainly are. Are you saying the illustrations in comics and graphic novels are trivial because of their medium? Because of the story? Because they were someone else's idea?
Or take fanfic, is an alternate universe fic that imagines what would happen if Faith not Buffy came to Sunnydale and had been chosen, would that be any less creative than say a new novel by Jim Butcher?
Or is a piece of business writing set up to inform someone how to sell widgets any less creative than say making a movie for money? No.

Art is about being creative. You can create using another's ideas.
The Jane Eyre graphic novel is creative, it is art. And it is no more trivial or better than say a comic written by Neil Gaiman. Both are artistic endeavors. The weight you decide to give one over the other? Does not make one less artistic than the other.

I think people are far too obsessed, myself included, in catgorizing things. And ranking them. Yes, we have to do it to an extent...but to what extent is too much?

Shrug.

Don't know.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I really don't disagree with any particular point you are making, however my experience is that my most creative work comes from a different place within me than my day to day activities including crafts and illustrations. Not that that would be true of all illustrators, I feel that there is unquestioned artistic value by many who have been labeled as illustrators.

But although I enjoy accounting (it is puzzle solving, like doing a crossword puzzle) it is not creative, and I feel that my craft/illustrational work comes from that same place. It isn't hard, it is fun play.... But I'm really not trying to get to my soul. I feel that I'm doing something different in my painting than in my drawings. But I guess I can't be that disturbed that is doesn't seem any different to other people..... And I certainly shouldn't try to determine what other people are doing in their work, I can tell you when I've been touched or moved by someone's music (in a way an advertising jingle will never move me), and I've even felt that my life has been changed by someone's writing.

Maybe it it categorizing or ranking ... but I guess I was raised (in ways that are probably out-moded and considered passe now) thinking of Art in terms of Greek philosophy.

so I also have to shrug and add that I also don't know...

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Fascinating conversation.

I wonder if the difference is that art is what matters to you. You put a part of yourself in it. Or it transcends its purpose, becomes greater than its parts--creates something that others recognize. So a school lunch can be art, if it creates an emotion in someone else. (Creativity comes from emotion.)

Or I'm babbling.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not babbling at all...actually you nailed it, I think.

Cooking and arranging a school lunch could well be art - some are, decorative flowers made from radishes, or nice neat sushi around in a flower shape...or a peanut butter sandwich cut to look like a star.
It's what matters most to you, that you put something of yourself into to communicate an emotion or feeling to another person.

If the thing that matters most to you is writing fanfic, if you *love* it and want to become good at it - than who's to say that's not art? I'm tempted to say its doing something without a guide or pre-made pattern or recipe...but I'm not sure that's true right now. Fanfic is writing a story with a premade pattern or recipe - but it is not the same as doing a "paint by numbers" picture or coloring in a coloring book. I think art is something that is not "mass produced" and must be a creative expression.
Also it should matter in some way to the person creating it...be more than just a job. Example - Whedon loved his characters and story - Buffy became "art" as a result. While writers on Law & Order are doing a job, it's work - so not art. Enjoyable yes, but not art? Or is that categorization subjective as well?

[astridv.livejournal.com]

adding...

How do you feel about Whedon's new Buffy S8 in comics?
I haven't read them yet because it's near impossible to get them where I live. But I can't wait to get my hands on them.

Would you read fanfic that does not follow the canon of the comics?

Of course, the comics aren't canon - totatlly different medium

I picked this one because of the 'of course' but it doesn't matter to me if the comics are canon or not. I read plenty of AU fic that doesn't follow canon, so that's not really a factor.