Once More With Feeling...

[shadowkat]

Last one, I promise. All this is probably proving is that I should leave polling to the experts. Hee.

[Poll #976784]

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The responses to these polls are fascinating.

The men who write fanfic state that you can't tell whether it is women or men who primarily write it. The men who do not write it and a majority of the women responding (not all of them mind you) state that it is women who primarily write fanfic.

I think women tend to advertise it more and talk about it more. Women tend to like to talk things to death and contemplate their navels in a way that I've discovered most men don't. In fact it is a trait in women that annoys the majority of men to no end. That said, I've met men who do this. One of the pluses of having a kid brother is well, you find out that half of your gender biasis assumptions are wrong. I told him once that women just contemplated their navel and he informed me that I was wrong and provided proof - several of his male friends did this and drove him batty with it. LOL!

So I don't think that 1# is necessarily true - although a heck of a lot of people seem to think it is - but most of those people tend to read fic posted on lj or fanboards they frequent, which may be more female centric.
In short - if it ain't in my playground or the ones I know about and frequent, it doesn't exist - mentality. That mentality is at the root of a lot of faulty human assumptions - if we don't see it, if we don't know about it, if we have no evidence of it - then it's not there. We can after all only reacte to information that we have or know about.

The ones who do not think #1 is true are people who post fic and read fic on fanboards, forumes etc frequented by a lot of men. I was on co-ed fanboards and frequented a couple that were headed by men or co-monitored by them. The guys wrote fanfic - they just were a little less forward about posting it.

Writing fanfic is not plagirism. Want to make that clear. Plagirism is when you literally steal the "style" of writing. It's hard to understand.
But for the same reasons it is not plagirism to draw Mal or the Firefly ship and put him or it on shirt, it's not plagirism to write a story about them.

That said - I agree, it is perplexing. Why are women more comfortable writing fantasy fic about someone else's characters as opposed to creating their own? Granted in some aspects it may be easier - you don't have to describe them, make up a back story, or figure out how they sound. You don't have to worry about using people you know as a resource. Or heaven's forbid inadvertently writting yourself into your story. OR creating Mary Sues. You can just thoroughly research the characters.

But I don't think that's it. I think it has more to do with the fact that you have a ready-made audience. People who read it and tell you how great you are and make you feel good about yourself. I think it's for the validation. Most of the fanfic writers online - specifically the women ones, the men who write fanfic don't appear to do this - beg for feedback. If they don't get any comments? They get upset and stop writing.
Or threaten to stop writing. The more comments they get, the happier they are. And...here's the thing, they want positive comments, no critiques, just supportive postive ones. So, I think it has more to do with the fact that men have more outlets in which to get that support, validation, than women. Men are paid more, they are more likely to get a promotion, or get to the top of the ladder, there are more men in power that they can look up to, their religious leaders are men usually, they can excel at sports and the sporting events - the major ones are male oriented, they can be firemen and cops and get rewarded for being "heroes".

I suspect many women write fanfic for many of the same reasons men do - to fantasize about favorite characters, but also to work out issues they may not be comfortable writing about in their own fic which can be published and shared with family members. To in a way play power games - where they can be the one in control.

Note I did not say all. I certainly didn't write it for those reasons. I will admit however, that I've read others for those reasons.

People are interesting.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting point about the cries for feedback, because I've definitely seen that phenomena too. I know a lot of very insecure men, but most of them would be loath to beg for attention online.

I'm aware that men write fan fic, at the fireflyfans board there are a lot of men who write regularly, but they are far less likely to be romantic (they do like the humor as well as the fighting though).

Certainly reading Jane Espenson's site you can see that fan fic can lead into writing spec scripts (although most fan fic writers don't really try to adapt to screen play writing). So I can see how writing it can be good practice for writing, but not wanting real feedback or critiques kind of holds back the process IMO.

Of course just like huge numbers of people will paint for their own amusement, I imagine there are huge numbers of people who are happy to write as an emotional/creative release without needing it to be published.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Writing fanfic is *no* different that painting pictures of characters from Firefly, creating calendars with their pictures in them, putting those pics on buttons or what have you. The creative process is the same.
And I'm willing to guess the reasons for doing it are more or less the same.

Why did you choose to do a graphic novel of Jane Eyre as opposed to creating your own characters?

Why did you create a t-shirt with the Firefly characters and want to post that and sell that, as opposed to creating one with items and people you made up?

Why do people create majohns of Spike? Or vids of the shows? Or buttons and calenders with those characters?

And how are those things any different than writing a fanfic?

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Actually this is an interesting comparison because I don't think of my fan drawing as being in any way related to my 'Art'. I drew the first characters, the ones who inspired me to say something about their characters as an homage... and then I finished off drawing the others because I wanted a full set (almost like commercial work, like completing a craft project).
And I love wearing the t-shirt with all my BDHs on it, I love that people stop me at conventions to look at it. But I never considered it art.

I don't think I ever did w/the Jane Eyre either, I had just watched the latest PBS version and I was bothered that they had kind of left out the points that were important to me. So I picked up the book to see, and yes: the things I had seen it it were right there.... And that is when I was inspired to do that comic book thing because it gave me a chance to bring out the points I felt get lost in most (all?) film versions of Jane Eyre.

Those things were like projects to me, not like a personal expression of anything inside me. Not like when I am painting on canvas, and not even like the work I've been trying to do in ceramics (where I am really trying to express something inward in the external clay). I have a totally different attitude to the process.

Do writers experience that difference? They must! When you are writing your novel you must be coming from a different place than when you're writing an essay about a TV show, aren't you? Certainly when you are writing memos at work you have the same beautiful use of language, but the difference in what you are trying to communicate must make a difference in where it is coming from within you....

I don't know about fan fic writers, maybe they are pouring their heart and souls into these characters, but I'm afraid even my best fan drawings will always be (to me) just a more trivial homage to characters I loved and not anything I would consider as artistic.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It comes down to how you define art. Sort of like canon. We use the same words, but are we defining them in the same way.

Not always easy to tell in context.

I define art as "creative expression" which is far broader than "original" expression. And I define original expression not by idea, because I know for a fact there are no such things. Just new ways of expressing those ideas or playing with them. For example - creating a show around a female vampire slayer is not an original idea. Naming her Buffy, having her portrayed by a petite blond woman is an original expression of that idea.

Creative Expression unlike "original expression" - is when we take any idea, piece of work, and play with it, creating something different and unique in the process - even if it was originally based on someone else's original expression. All fanfic has that in common - they are original expressions of the viewers or readers interpretation of what appeared on scrreen. Were my essays creative? Of course. Are they artistic? Of course. I've interacted with the material and created something from it. The creative process in writing a fanfic, throwing a piece of pottery, handbuilding one, or writing a novel isn't that different - you are creating something - the difference is in the materials you are using.

When people write, whether they want to admit it or not - they are using materials that have been created by others. When you paint a painting of your friends, you are using techniques and materials, and ideas that someone else came up with. You are playing with them.

The judgement on whether one piece of work is better or more trivial than another is purely subjective. It is *just* an opinion. That opinion does not change the fact that this piece of work could be a masterpiece of artistic achievement in the eyes of one reader/viewer just because it isn't in another's eyes. Fantasy artwork has often been influenced by the stories of others. Illustrations certainly are. Are you saying the illustrations in comics and graphic novels are trivial because of their medium? Because of the story? Because they were someone else's idea?
Or take fanfic, is an alternate universe fic that imagines what would happen if Faith not Buffy came to Sunnydale and had been chosen, would that be any less creative than say a new novel by Jim Butcher?
Or is a piece of business writing set up to inform someone how to sell widgets any less creative than say making a movie for money? No.

Art is about being creative. You can create using another's ideas.
The Jane Eyre graphic novel is creative, it is art. And it is no more trivial or better than say a comic written by Neil Gaiman. Both are artistic endeavors. The weight you decide to give one over the other? Does not make one less artistic than the other.

I think people are far too obsessed, myself included, in catgorizing things. And ranking them. Yes, we have to do it to an extent...but to what extent is too much?

Shrug.

Don't know.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I really don't disagree with any particular point you are making, however my experience is that my most creative work comes from a different place within me than my day to day activities including crafts and illustrations. Not that that would be true of all illustrators, I feel that there is unquestioned artistic value by many who have been labeled as illustrators.

But although I enjoy accounting (it is puzzle solving, like doing a crossword puzzle) it is not creative, and I feel that my craft/illustrational work comes from that same place. It isn't hard, it is fun play.... But I'm really not trying to get to my soul. I feel that I'm doing something different in my painting than in my drawings. But I guess I can't be that disturbed that is doesn't seem any different to other people..... And I certainly shouldn't try to determine what other people are doing in their work, I can tell you when I've been touched or moved by someone's music (in a way an advertising jingle will never move me), and I've even felt that my life has been changed by someone's writing.

Maybe it it categorizing or ranking ... but I guess I was raised (in ways that are probably out-moded and considered passe now) thinking of Art in terms of Greek philosophy.

so I also have to shrug and add that I also don't know...

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Fascinating conversation.

I wonder if the difference is that art is what matters to you. You put a part of yourself in it. Or it transcends its purpose, becomes greater than its parts--creates something that others recognize. So a school lunch can be art, if it creates an emotion in someone else. (Creativity comes from emotion.)

Or I'm babbling.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not babbling at all...actually you nailed it, I think.

Cooking and arranging a school lunch could well be art - some are, decorative flowers made from radishes, or nice neat sushi around in a flower shape...or a peanut butter sandwich cut to look like a star.
It's what matters most to you, that you put something of yourself into to communicate an emotion or feeling to another person.

If the thing that matters most to you is writing fanfic, if you *love* it and want to become good at it - than who's to say that's not art? I'm tempted to say its doing something without a guide or pre-made pattern or recipe...but I'm not sure that's true right now. Fanfic is writing a story with a premade pattern or recipe - but it is not the same as doing a "paint by numbers" picture or coloring in a coloring book. I think art is something that is not "mass produced" and must be a creative expression.
Also it should matter in some way to the person creating it...be more than just a job. Example - Whedon loved his characters and story - Buffy became "art" as a result. While writers on Law & Order are doing a job, it's work - so not art. Enjoyable yes, but not art? Or is that categorization subjective as well?