Whedonverse Character Wars Poll

[shadowkat]

This time I decided to add other Whedonverse characters to the mix to spice things up a bit. If you don't them or didn't like the other shows, makes the poll rather easy.
Rules are the same - pick the one you enjoyed watching on the show the best or thought was the most fun, interesting, whatever. Don't over think. Just go with your gut. Quick responses.

I wanted to include a question regarding Mark Watches - do people care what the guy says about your favorite character? Does what Mark says affect whether you read his reviews of Buffy? Perhaps a better question is - will you read a blog or review or discussion board that bashes your favorite character? Or give up on it? Will you read people who do it? I ask, because, I'm not sure if the answer is as simple and obvious as I think it is. I know that I've been known to stick with blogs that bash my favorite fictional characters...it just depends on how often they bash them and how they bash them and if I agree with them on other items. Mostly because, in a temper, I've been known to do the same thing on occasion - I tend to be more tolerant of things I do myself. Also a lot has to do with tone - if I feel like they are attacking me, personally, or the character. Some people bash specific fans of the character, others bash the character. I think to one degree or another...we've all lapsed into doing both, I certainly have and I know others have. So I'm even tolerant of that to a certain degree. Again for me it depends on frequency, tone, and how they do it and why. How do you feel about it? Do you feel the same way? Differently?

[ETA: This poll had harder choices than I thought. First one that I really struggled picking between characters on. Good luck! Again...hope more than 10 people do this or I will look silly.]

[Poll #1852210]

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Re: Reading blogs...

I'm too old and have been around fandom too long to bother with fandom stuff if it will only make me miserable. I long ago decided how I feel about the characters and while I'm open for all sorts of intelligent dissection of story or plot, if it's just about someone ranting because they didn't like this that or the other, unless I derive amusement or entertainment from the ranting, I'll forgo it. Especially if it's ranting against what I personally enjoyed.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Feel more or less the same way to be honest.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I had a terrible time picking which Spike to choose since I loved ALL the Spikes!
But basically Spike the chipped was the funniest, and I always go for the comedy.

Similarly I totally passed on the question of which vamp (the master the anointed the First Evil and noodles....) because I really found all four to be boring and not worth picking;
I would have wanted Mr. Trick in that grouping, because I loved Mr. Trick!

Regarding Mark, so far he hasn't bashed anyone I like ... all he has done is love characters I don't like (which doesn't bother me at all). I will always leave a site where there is unrelenting bashing of characters I love (but in my experience those attacks always devolve into bashing the posters who defend the characters anyway) I don't need the aggravation in my life...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Similarly I totally passed on the question of which vamp (the master the anointed the First Evil and noodles....) because I really found all four to be boring and not worth picking;
I would have wanted Mr. Trick in that grouping, because I loved Mr. Trick!

Which would have been pointless - because everybody would have picked him. LOL!

Although to be honest? I completely forgot about him. If I'd remembered I'd have put him in the Vamp Willow poll.

[fangstress.livejournal.com]

I don't even bother with reviews anymore. Most of the time, when "reviewers" are focused on being entertaining and "witty", really what they're doing is bashing, in order to make themselves look smarter or whatever.

I quit reading/watching them a long time ago. I know what I like already, thank you! :-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You know that I write reviews, right? ;-)

[fangstress.livejournal.com]

Actually, no I didn't. New to participating in the Fandom. So, no offense meant.

What I'm talking about people who snark, with no other motivation than to make themselves look smart.

We see a lot of that here in Seattle, in our newspaper "The Stranger". Their reviewers seem to revel in gleefuly ripping anything and everything to pieces. But they are often not telling you why they thought something was good, or bad-- they just tend to make snide comments. When they get called on it (we have an online blog "The Slog") they've been unbelievably vitriolic and defensive. But again, that's not a specific Fandom reviewer-- and this is my experience of said reviewers--right here in town.

So, again, no offense meant--I was speaking in general about what I notice from *some* reviewers, in general.

I also have to add that, just in general-- I won't read anything that revolves around character bashing. It just brings me down, fills me with bewilderment (if one hates the show so much, why watch it)-- I've always been such a loner, that it's easy for me to just retreat into solitary enjoyment of whatever show, rather than subjecting myself to *some* reviewers who only talk about what they hated. I have a friend who does that, and I avoid her whenever I've seen a movie I loved, because she will *always* go on and on about why it sucked. :-)

But I suspect, that's a Seattle thing or a Hipster thing...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Most likely a "Hipster" thing or new media thing. Everything on the net does it these days, some more than others.

I admittedly snark as well, but in a different way and will post warnings ahead of time. My Buffy comics reviews were incredibly snarky. As are anything politically related.

Do it sparingly though...because it can turn people off. It's a delicate art - you have to make fun of yourself as well.


ETA: no offense taken. Thanks for the clarification. It's hard to read a negative review about something you love. I've been avoiding anything written by Gillian Flynn because she liked to snark in Entertainment Weekly about tv shows I liked. Annoyed me to no end. And yes, she came across exactly as you suggest - "look at great and smart I am". Another one was the reviewer in the Times who slammed GoT along with its fans.

[fangstress.livejournal.com]

Coolness! Yeah, I think you're right about new media. People feel like they can say anything, because they're anonymous. I liken some of the comments I see to tagging.. or folks just running around crapping on anything positive that they see. :-)

I do think there's a difference between substantive and/or constructive criticism, and just plain old bashing; or even, "I hated it" and here's why-- or "this gets 4 snaps in a Z formation"- kind of critique.

But that's just me, and I could be on Crack. :-D

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

True there's a difference between bashing for the sake of bashing and substantive concrit or snark with proof...as it were.

It annoys me more when the professional reviewers do it - because seriously?
They are being paid to write a review. Bloggers like myself, not so much.
Mark - I hold up to a similar level, since he's making his living off of these reviews. There's a huge difference between writing a review professionally and just writing one for fun.

[rahirah]

I don't particularly care what Mark thinks, and I'm a little boggled that so many other people seem to. He's just one more reviewer in a sea of them.

I've found that reviewers who hate my favorite characters tend to view the text as a whole in a way that I don't find very satisfying, so while I might read such a blog now and then to see how the other half lives, I don't think I'd follow one regularly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think the reason some people care...is they want to read more about Spike from someone who has just started watching the series. A new take, as it were.
And ..are mildly frustrated that they aren't getting that.

Let's face it - we don't have anything new to say about the character.
And there's a desire to have new watchers...fall in love with the same characters you did. I'm not so sure validation is the right word...so much as connection.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

I feel pretty much like Barb - when reviewers don't like my favorite character(s) or ship(s), usually they see the show in an entirely different way than I do, anyway. I might read something like out of curiosity, but wouldn't be interested in following their reviews on a regular basis.

I have still not read anything Mark Watches has written unless someone else has quoted it in their LJ. I'm not sure why. Maybe just being rebellious because everyone else has been. *g* I am assuming from what I've seen that he's still not a big Spike fan?

And I wish you'd stop making me choose between Giles and Wes. I'll almost always choose Wes, but I feel really bad about it. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And I wish you'd stop making me choose between Giles and Wes. I'll almost always choose Wes, but I feel really bad about it. ;-)

Bwhahhaah! Giles surprisingly keeps winning.

I am assuming from what I've seen that he's still not a big Spike fan?

Well, until now at any rate. A lot of people fell for Spike from Intervention to Seeing Red. Then got the rug pulled out from under them. Is it any wonder many fans stopped watching after Seeing Red? Whedon killed everyone's ships. Damn him.

As for the number of people reading Mark? It's about even, or 50/50. 50% are, and 50% aren't according to my Buffy Character Wars Poll I.

I'm admittedly scanning him - out of curiousity. It requires no thought and takes five minutes. I don't read the comments or post.

[liliaeth]

Honestly, I really liked his Harry Potter and Hunger Games reviews, probably because I agreed with him back then*g*

But with the BTVS reviews, I'm more looking forward to the reviews given by one of the commenters (aka Scully) than I am to his own reviews.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

The most difficult choice for me was between Xander and Wash. Really like both of them.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I had problems there as well, more than I expected. Also struggled between
Mal and Angel, and Angelus vs. Angel...which is the one poll choice that I'm getting a kick out of. Angelus is beating Angel. LOL! I honestly thought it would be the opposite.

And vampires are beating evil lawyers. While evil lawyers are coming very close to beating ambiguous British academics (the Watcher Council).

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

As you know, I like ALL THE SPIKES, so I figure there's no way to go wrong with that one. But....Giles, Adele, or Book? They are all marvelous! I had to go with Giles because there was more of him, but all three are in my Top 10.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd agree that was a lot harder to choose from than I expected.
Surprisingly Adelle is gaining on Giles, when I thought it would be Wes.

Apparently there aren't many Angel and Wes fans taking my polls?

here via the Herald

[samsom.livejournal.com]

I like to read a lot of different blogs/reviews/whatnot but in the last few years I've noticed that I scan anyone getting into the series for references to my favorite character. If they bash, or they simply didn't like, her, I assume we weren't watching the same show and I stop reading the blog/review/whatnot.

If my favorite character isn't mentioned, I'll happy go ahead with the reading, but then, again, only if Spike/Spuffy isn't bashed. Again, I assume people who didn't like the character, or the ship, wasn't watching the same show I was, so I don't think I'd have anything new to glean from them.

In that vein, if a reviewer/blogger loves on AtS s4 or s5 too much, I stop reading. I intensly disliked one of those seasons and didn't see the point of the other one, and having someone rave on them isn't my cuppa.

There's not a lot of logic to my reasoning. AtS/BtVS was the last set of shows I got ridiculously invested in, and I consider myself an old fan now. I want to spend my fangirl time loving on the characters and ships that I adore. Barring that, I want to read reviewers/those-new-to-the-shows, that, if they didn't care for a particular character and/or ship, didn't bash them (which is ridiculously hard for me as a fan of both Spike and Angel).

Ugh. Look at me rambling. Sorry. It's getting late and I'm tired.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I think they're a bit overly sensitive over at Mark Watches, but I look at it to see what he'll say and maybe post a comment. But it's not going to affect how I feel about my favorites anymore than the wank on certain forums does.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

I had some difficulty choosing a Spike, because I feel that BtVS season 7 Spike isn't at all the same as Ats season 5 Spike... but in the end I went with Evil Spike.

Re: Mark Watches, I have some serious issues with the late seasons of BtVS, so I've just stopped posting comments on those eps, because I figured I shouldn't ruin other people's fun. Which is kind of backwards to what you're asking, but I feel that only you can know when reading the reviews stops being fun for you. I had a similar problem with the TWoP reviews of Angel.

In general, I think it's good to get other people's perspectives, but only up to a point; if it spoils your enjoyment and nothing new is being said, don't bother.

[promethia_tenk]

Agreed about Spike. I think my favorite is season four Buffy/season five Angel. Someone pointed out once (disapprovingly) that they come across very similar, so now they are permanently linked in my mind in favorite ness.

Went with evil Spike too, though. Because season four is hysterical.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

BTVS S4 and ATS S5 Spike - are the non-romantic versions, or Spike when he is not desperately in love with anyone and just struggling to fit in and make things work. He's not the Fool for Love in these seasons. S4 is pre-Buffy (he hasn't discovered that he's in love with her yet) and post-Drusilla, he's basically on the rebound and recently chipped. ATS S5 is post-Buffy, post-dying heroically, and post-souled, so he's struggling to deal with being souled, dealing with not being with Buffy or in love, struggling to move on (as is Angel at that point). So in both those seasons you get more interactions between Spike and supporting characters, not just Buffy or the lead.

Unless you are huge Spuffy fan...S4 and ATS S5 may be more fun. If you are a huge Spuffy fan...you probably lean more towards BTVS S5, S6 and S7 Spike. (Probably, I'm sure there are exceptions, who will undoubtedly tell me this.)

I didn't think of that when I was doing the poll, mostly because I'm both a huge Spike fan and a Spuffy fan...and my favorite Spike was chipped Spike - because he was ambiguous. I really looked at Spike more through an arc perspective - which version in the arc did I like better...than a seasonal perspective. Chipped Spike for me was more fun to watch and more unpredictable - I honestly didn't know what he was going to do next. Souled and Evil Spike - you sort of did, more or less.

[promethia_tenk]

That pretty much sums up my reasons. But my feelings on Spuffy are mixed, trending towards ehhhh . . . I don't even care any more what else is on?

I do, on the whole, think I like Spike best on AtS. I feel like he fit, on the show and with himself, far better than he ever did on BtVS. But I find season seven Spike altogether hard to watch, so I really can't make those two fit together in my head.

Also a big fan of Spike-with-Dawn, Spike-with-Anya, Spike-with-Buffy's mom . . . Spike-with-Fred . . . Spike-with-Willow . . . Spike-with-Giles . . . Spike-with- . . . you get the idea. Would say Spike-with-Drusilla, but if Drusilla is on the screen I'm watching her, so *g*

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

If you aren't a Spuffy fan...or weren't into Spike's spiritual journey towards redemption and his psychological issues - S7 would have bored you. If you were? You'd have eaten it up like candy.

Edited: Realized that I said prefer. So it is possible to have loved Spike in all the seasons and have selected the one's you loved the most. That's what I did. I loved him in all the seasons and selected the one's I preferred - which is most likely what everyone did, more or less.

[teragramm.livejournal.com]

I had a tough time with several questions in this poll.

Which version of Spike Did you Like Most? My favorite Spike is season 5 but season 4&6 weren't my favorite. In the end I went with season 7 and 5 AtS because those seasons showed us the Spike that all the other seasons were leading up to, the Spike that was the "good man" we all knew he was.

Which was your favorite version of Angel? The same as with the Spike question, I thought Angelus was more fun to watch but I liked the idea of "champion" Angel better.

Which Human Male vampire slayer did you prefer? This was hard because I really didn't like any of them, so I went for cute (Connor).

As for the Mark watches question- I do read Mark Watches, I don't always agree with him but I do enjoy his blog. I don't always agree with him because, as someone said, (and forget who) Mark watches but he doesn't always see.

The reason I enjoy his blog is because it really isn't about the show, sure he reviews the show but he does it in a, how does this episode relate to my life way, not an in depth analysis way That's (IMHO) what makes him fun to read.

[promethia_tenk]

Interested to see responses to your question about character bashing. I frequently really enjoy reading rants about characters I love and will actively seek them out? Partly because a good rant can just be damned enjoyable no matter the topic (and when I read rants about things I hate myself I end up getting angry, and that diminishes the enjoyability of the rant-i-ness). And partly because I really like trying to understand how and why people can see things so differently from me. Also frequently the fans of a character get mired up in a morass of their own ideas and perceptions, and the things the haters point out can really help focus my own thoughts. I feel like some of my very best insights have come from thinking about something that was bothering some hater and trying to worry out what and why.

When I have to stop reading criticism is when I'm feeling conflicted about a character myself and the critiques start hitting to close to my own concerns.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I found myself nodding along with your response. Yes, I am more or less the same way. I like to read varying views, critical and otherwise.
Sometimes I'll even change my mind.

Depends largely on tone, I suspect.

[ripper-repoman.livejournal.com]

Generally, I'll try to keep an open mind when people start bashing favorite characters. I don't particularly like it, but it's understandable if people don't like the same things I do. There's a limit to how much I'll tolerate, though; if someone posts page after page of badly spelled rants about one character, I'm probably going to laugh instead of read it.

I picked Doyle both times because I have an irrational love of Doyle.

I think the Reavers are the most evil, because vampires seem to vary in intent and threat (sometimes, like Harmony, they're just incompetent and don't pose as much a threat as, say Angelus). Reavers have absolutely no moral code and just seem like causing planet-wide pain for no reason.

While the Council of Watchers is just as frustrating as WR&H, at least WR&H admits that they're morally questionable at best. And they're so deliciously evil and very willing to admit that their goals are less-than-noble. CoW seems set on insisting that they are always doing the right thing.

Good poll, good questions!

[farmgirl62.livejournal.com]

Good poll. I found the questions a little tough (Wes vs Giles is just brutal) but fun.

On Mark Watches: I do read his reviews -- but my thoughts on it are kind of odd. It IS enjoyable to me to read someone's thoughts who appear to be just his own versus influenced by others or external data. And I guess I like someone who will generally focus on positive aspects versus negative rants. I found the comments during the first two seasons hard to stomach so I stopped reading them and only skim for a few people (at the start there was way too much hostility for my tastes). And Mark wasn't all that great either (IMO) on his personal comments when he started-- in fact I think since he went "professional" I've seen a greater tolerance on his site. In addition, there are some unique insights that he pulls out that I enjoy. Finally, and this is the odd part -- when his "untainted" opinions are consistent with mine and inconsistent with some of the bashing -- it makes me happy. I don't like bashing.

On reading bashing reviews - generally I don't like bashing. Of course I consider "bashing" completely different than "negative". To me a negative review where the reviewer is commenting (with actual rationale and examples) on something they think doesn't work is perfectly fine with me. To me "bashing" is unsupported and unrelenting. A turn off. I don't mind a rant on a topic but if it dominates and distracts, I don't read it. One pet peeve: when the reviewer makes an "everybody thinks like me" kind of statement.

(Note: I figured you were looking for unfiltered opinions, I hope I haven't been too raw -- I've never read you're reviews so there was no intention to offend -- but I enjoy your blogs).

Re: Good poll, good questions!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not at all. Responded perfectly, thank you.

You are correct there's a difference between "bashing" and a critical/negative review or concrit. Bashing is basically just pure emotion. Sometimes it can be "pious" or holier than thou - where the reviewer gets on his/her podium and self-righteously screams at the masses (which ahem...I think is incredibly tempting on livejournal and fanboards.)

But the thing to remember in all cases of bashing is - it's emotion speaking not rational thought. You can't argue with the person, and
there's no opening for discussion. I'm more tolerant of it in blogging for fun, but professional writers annoy me when they go there.

Agree with you on Mark Watches. I tend to avoid the comments...although people tell me that there are a few really interesting commentators, but I've no time to scan for them or patience for that matter. Mark intrigues me...I can't quite decide if he's being sincere or not. He has begun to tailor his site to a more mature audience and made it more professional - I noticed that. Less all CAPS, less foul language or "Fuck" used. So apparently somebody is paying attention to critiques of the site.